Poll

Lose Bradley (Trade). Sign Hayward (Free Agency). Upgrade Or Not?

Huge Upgrade
58 (69%)
Moderate Upgrade
24 (28.6%)
Slight Upgrade Only
2 (2.4%)
Pretty Much The Same, Honestly
0 (0%)
We Took A Step Back. Hayward Is (Really) Overrated/Bradley Underrated
0 (0%)
I Don't Know (Just Can't Say Now..)
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 82

Author Topic: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward  (Read 2571 times)

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Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #45 on: July 16, 2017, 09:16:59 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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With the way so many players on the roster can play multiple positions, Celtics have an opportunity now switch everything on defense.  This is the way the league is going.  "Positionless" basketball is not so much about offense, it's defense.  Bradley didn't fit into that.
Already discussed here on CB:
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=92573.0

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #46 on: July 16, 2017, 09:32:20 PM »

Offline mr. dee

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People are underestimating the defensive impact Smart and Rozier are gonna bring.

Smart is a one dimensional player who is an offensive liability at least half the time he's on the floor...

And as much as I love Rozier he's yet to prove that he can play at a competitive level CONSISTENTLY throughout the course of a season.  He's shown he can come up big in the playoffs, but we need more than just 15 good games a season from him.

Both guys have the potential to be major wildcards for us this year - in fact our bench in general has the potential to be a huge wildcard now that we've added a dynamic scorer (Tatum).

I'm more worried about whether the extra 5 PPG we gain from Hayward will be enough to offset the defense, rebounding, hustle and leadership we were getting from Bradley.  I've always seen Hayward as a Kevin Love type - he seems very skilled and talented, but I don't see any kinda of natural born leadership, toughness or killer instinct in him.  I hoped after his performance this season maybe that will change, but then there were some comments made by him this year that killed those hopes  - he basically said right out that he doesn't see himself as a leader of this team and just wants to play his role.   That concerned me a bit because while it's lovely for guys to make comments like this, we already have one too many modest stars on this team (Horford).  We need somebody with an Alpha-Dog mentality, and I worry Hayward is not that guy. 

This signing will eliminate all of our cap flexibility for the next 2-3 years so I hope Hayward can prove me wrong.  If nothing else I do see some of that killer instinct in Tatum, so if Hayward doesn't bring it hopefully he will in time.

Draws charges, set screens, pass, rebounds and makes clutch plays on both ends. I don't know how is that a one-dimensional player. Can't shoot =/= offensive liability. Smart is the more versatile defender than Bradley, better ball-handler and passer.

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2017, 09:41:37 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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He'll be sitting on the bench hurt within 20 games at Detroit .

does not matter what your capable of ,  your not helping the team sitting on the bench healing up 1/3 of the season.

I don't think AB can keep up the torrid defense he is inown for much longer, he has too many injuries and age is becomming a factor.   

His shooting can improve , but defense intensity falls with age , and thats been his real calling card.


Smart is much more valuable on a team of stars .  He phsical presence and willingness to do the dirty work , and come up with big plays is what this team will need.


Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #48 on: July 16, 2017, 09:53:26 PM »

Offline max215

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Analytics troglodyte here.

Is there a site I can utilize to see the Cs defensive efficiency with/without Bradley on the court and, in particular, the efficiency when both Bradley/IT are on the floor together as opposed to say someone else and IT?

http://on.nba.com/2pprr7D

You can play around with all the settings to isolate different groupings.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 10:05:43 PM by max215 »
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Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #49 on: July 16, 2017, 10:16:08 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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People are underestimating the defensive impact Smart and Rozier are gonna bring.

Smart is a one dimensional player who is an offensive liability at least half the time he's on the floor...

And as much as I love Rozier he's yet to prove that he can play at a competitive level CONSISTENTLY throughout the course of a season.  He's shown he can come up big in the playoffs, but we need more than just 15 good games a season from him.

Both guys have the potential to be major wildcards for us this year - in fact our bench in general has the potential to be a huge wildcard now that we've added a dynamic scorer (Tatum).

I'm more worried about whether the extra 5 PPG we gain from Hayward will be enough to offset the defense, rebounding, hustle and leadership we were getting from Bradley.  I've always seen Hayward as a Kevin Love type - he seems very skilled and talented, but I don't see any kinda of natural born leadership, toughness or killer instinct in him.  I hoped after his performance this season maybe that will change, but then there were some comments made by him this year that killed those hopes  - he basically said right out that he doesn't see himself as a leader of this team and just wants to play his role.   That concerned me a bit because while it's lovely for guys to make comments like this, we already have one too many modest stars on this team (Horford).  We need somebody with an Alpha-Dog mentality, and I worry Hayward is not that guy. 

This signing will eliminate all of our cap flexibility for the next 2-3 years so I hope Hayward can prove me wrong.  If nothing else I do see some of that killer instinct in Tatum, so if Hayward doesn't bring it hopefully he will in time.

Draws charges, set screens, pass, rebounds and makes clutch plays on both ends. I don't know how is that a one-dimensional player. Can't shoot =/= offensive liability. Smart is the more versatile defender than Bradley, better ball-handler and passer.

Correction...

* Seemingly leads the league in fines as a result of stupid flops
* Frequently picks up stupid and unnecessary offensive fouls, leading to turnovers
* Rebound well for a guard, but not as well as Bradley did last year
* Loses as many games with bad clutch plays (turnovers/fouls/bad shots) as he wins with good clutch plays
* Equal to Bradley at best as a ball handler (if you think he's a better ball handler you are dreaming)
* Can't finish at the basket and can't shoot, so opposing defense can ignore his presence on offense 90% of the time

He is a better passer then Bradley, I'll give you that.

As for defensive versatility, you must have forgotten the dominant defensive job Bradley did on Jimmy Butler in the playoffs this year, along with the similarly impressive defensive jobs he'd done on guys like Steph Curry and Dwyane Wade in the past.  That's a 6'8"/ 230 lbs SF, a 6'5" / 220 lbs SG and a 6'3" / 190 lbs PG - all dominant superstars - who have all been shut down on multiple occasions by Bradley.  I'd say that is a pretty impressive show of offensive versatility, wouldn't you?


Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2017, 01:32:22 AM »

Offline celtics2030

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Smart is a big defensive playmaker

He is versatile and can get into peoples skin


But he still gets roasted on defense. He cant keep up all game with quick talented players. Not too many can.

Bradley is a better defender than Smart is. I don't know where people think otherwise. Probably because Bradley is also an offensive player while Smart is ****e in that category.

With that said. On this team, Smart will be maximized. He wont get as many minutes though.

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2017, 02:17:39 AM »

Offline Greyman

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Undoubtedly Hayward is the better overall player and the question I have to ask is, how much better does he make the team? You can't lose a player like AB and not suffer on defence. I think Hayward adds more than what we lose in AB in most respects, though I still have a nagging concern over how the group will work together. AB was a team player and he brought a style of defence the team will miss. If its three steps forward and two steps back you are still moving forward.

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2017, 02:24:37 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Undoubtedly Hayward is the better overall player and the question I have to ask is, how much better does he make the team? You can't lose a player like AB and not suffer on defence. I think Hayward adds more than what we lose in AB in most respects, though I still have a nagging concern over how the group will work together. AB was a team player and he brought a style of defence the team will miss. If its three steps forward and two steps back you are still moving forward.
I'm not sure how true this will be. AB's defence in '16-'17 was a step back from what we've come to expect, likely due to his increased offensive output. He only really came back to what we are used to in the post season.

I think it's more 3 steps forward and 1 step back  ;D
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Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2017, 03:47:20 AM »

Offline mctyson

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The two players are the same age, the same level of experience, and basically achieved the same amount of success in the league.  Their shooting percentages are almost identical.  Hayward is taller, scores more and gets to the line more, which is really the big difference between them.

So I don't think anyone is overrating Bradley (he is a very good player) or underrrating Hayward.  They aren't that different right now.  What we can't rate yet for Hayward is his ceiling on this team, which we know for AB.  We are relying on the difference between them increasing over time.

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2017, 04:59:10 AM »

Online LilRip

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Huge upgrade. Hayward is a legit all star and is now the best player on this team, IMO. IT will probably score more but Hayward is going to be huge for us this year. Mind you, I like AB and defense is my favorite thing to watch in this game. But yeah, the difference in impact between the two players is huge.
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Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2017, 07:41:48 AM »

Offline Granath

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The two players are the same age, the same level of experience, and basically achieved the same amount of success in the league.  Their shooting percentages are almost identical.  Hayward is taller, scores more and gets to the line more, which is really the big difference between them.

So I don't think anyone is overrating Bradley (he is a very good player) or underrrating Hayward.  They aren't that different right now.  What we can't rate yet for Hayward is his ceiling on this team, which we know for AB.  We are relying on the difference between them increasing over time.

Er, no.

They haven't had the "same amount of success". One is a 22 point scorer who is an All Star and the other is 16 and is not.

Literally every part of Avery's offensive game is bettered by Hayward. It's not just FT shooting and usage. When you say that it makes me question whether you've ever watched a game. Avery - and I think everyone knows I love the guy - is a complimentary piece who cannot create his own shot. He's a spot up sniper who thrives on being fed open looks from long range and he's good at putting those away. Hayward is a shot creator who consistently thrives on creating for him and others. So for them to have the same shooting percentages shows that Hayward is a far more disruptive offensive force given their vastly different roles on offense. He's also a much better creator for other players as witnessed by his superior assist numbers and has been shown over the years to be a superior rebounder. There's not one area on offense that Hayward doesn't significantly improve upon and they are exceptionally different offensive players.

Defensively, Bradley has the edge. He's a lockdown defender who can drive the opposition nuts. We're going to miss that from time to time unless Smart takes that role. But Hayward offers better positional flexibility, length and is quite good on that end of the court as well. As a result, even though Bradley is the better defender, the overall team defense may not suffer much (if at all) with Hayward on the court.
Jaylen Brown will be an All Star in the next 5 years.

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2017, 10:35:08 AM »

Offline Phantom255x

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Lol wow, I make the post, come back, and "Huge Upgrade" is winning by a ton.  :P

Didn't expect that margin of vote difference between 1st and 2nd.

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2017, 10:43:48 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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With the way so many players on the roster can play multiple positions, Celtics have an opportunity now switch everything on defense.  This is the way the league is going.  "Positionless" basketball is not so much about offense, it's defense.  Bradley didn't fit into that.
But Thomas did? And does? If you want to keep Thomas you need to have a 2.guard that can defend both PGs and SGs. That pretty much means that we'll either start Brown and bench Crowder, or suffer defensively.
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Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #58 on: July 17, 2017, 10:54:35 AM »

Offline tankcity!

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With the way so many players on the roster can play multiple positions, Celtics have an opportunity now switch everything on defense.  This is the way the league is going.  "Positionless" basketball is not so much about offense, it's defense.  Bradley didn't fit into that.
But Thomas did? And does? If you want to keep Thomas you need to have a 2.guard that can defend both PGs and SGs. That pretty much means that we'll either start Brown and bench Crowder, or suffer defensively.

Or start Smart....I think this team is way better defensively. Bradley was not good at defense last year. I mean the stats bare it out. My eyes tell me the same thing. I just remember him getting burned by Bradley Beal and John Wall. Bradley WAS  a great defender, but he didn't demonstrate it this year.

Also Irving was effective. Butler was effective until Rondo got hurt. By the way, we did double and collapse on Butler in the playoffs. Talk about overrating a player, sheesh.

It's like people forget we weren't good on D last year. IT was a part of the problem, and will continue to be a part of the problem.
They didn't "lose" Teague -- they got rid of him because Schroder made him redundant. Other than that, they replaced Horford with Howard. Injuries or no injuries, our roster is not any more superior than it was last season. Probably less.

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Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #59 on: July 17, 2017, 11:27:46 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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With the way so many players on the roster can play multiple positions, Celtics have an opportunity now switch everything on defense.  This is the way the league is going.  "Positionless" basketball is not so much about offense, it's defense.  Bradley didn't fit into that.
But Thomas did? And does? If you want to keep Thomas you need to have a 2.guard that can defend both PGs and SGs. That pretty much means that we'll either start Brown and bench Crowder, or suffer defensively.

Or start Smart....I think this team is way better defensively. Bradley was not good at defense last year. I mean the stats bare it out. My eyes tell me the same thing. I just remember him getting burned by Bradley Beal and John Wall. Bradley WAS  a great defender, but he didn't demonstrate it this year.

Also Irving was effective. Butler was effective until Rondo got hurt. By the way, we did double and collapse on Butler in the playoffs. Talk about overrating a player, sheesh.

It's like people forget we weren't good on D last year. IT was a part of the problem, and will continue to be a part of the problem.
Whether Bradley was a great defender last year was immaterial. The main issue here is you could put him on the likes of Irving and Wall, and not expect him to get his pants pulled down. Sure, maybe he wasn't the second coming of Gary Payton -- but he was a better option than Thomas, and we will need to see how our starting SG this year will fare to render judgement.

As it is, it seems that we have 3 options: (1) start Hayward at SG and have suboptimal defense, (2) play Crowder at PF and have VERY suboptimal rebounding, and (3) start Brown/Smart and put Crowder on the bench. Regardless of whether you find Bradley over- or underrated, neither of these scenarios is a clear upgrade.
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