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Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2017, 03:39:31 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Granath -- I didn't say every player on the Sixers is better than every player on the C's - I'd rather have Smart than JO too - but I suspect there are many in the NBA who consider JO more valuable.   Obviously the present day Cs are a better team than the Sixers.   I think the Sixers are in better shape at this moment when it comes to future sustained contention.  Clearly -- depending on how things play out with injuries, trades, development  - I could be wrong.

And yes, I would trade IT for Embiid or Simmons; I would trade Horford for Embiid or Simmons; and I would trade Brown  for Embiid or Simmons.  Of course  I have no real idea what Danny would do, but whatever he would do I'd trust his judgement over mine.  Just my opinion.

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2017, 03:41:31 PM »

Offline Bucketgetter

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Sixers are in such great position to have a long-term championship run.  They have 2 likely top 2017 ten picks --extremely valuable as picks or trade chips to add to an embarrassment of riches of young star potential in Embiid and Simmons with young assets like JO, Saric, Stauskas, McConnell, Noel.  If the roster is managed well, they'll own the East in 3 years. I think Danny would give his left and right arms to trade places with Philly right now.    Philly, Minny, and LAL all reaping benefits of playing to lose.

You thought wrong.

Embiid certainly looks like a stud. He and two high draft choices this year are the only guarantee Philly has in the bank right now. Otherwise they're a bad team with a bad record.

You really looked at this through rose-colored glasses. To wit:
- Simmons hasn't played at all in the NBA. He'll probably be a good player but he's not a guarantee.
- Saric looks like he can play but doesn't look like a world beater at this point. A nice piece and a guy I'd like to have on the Cs but not likely an All-Star.
- Okafor's stock has been dropping and his stats are down this year.
- Noel is a RFA this season and isn't likely to stay.
- These guys can't play on the court together anyway.
- When you mention Stauskas as an asset - a guy who has been a failure his entire career - you lose all credibility.
- TJ McConnell? A soon-to-be 25 year old averaging 4 points a game and you consider that an asset? Come on. That's pathetic.

That's not an embarrassment of riches. What's an embarrassment is their record the last 3 years. They're on pace for a whopping 22 wins. Oh my. If you think Danny would swap places you're nuts. Danny isn't a loser. Instead of looking over the fence and thinking the grass is greener, try looking at the NBA standings once in a while.

----

As an aside, every year many fans of really crappy teams think they have the pieces to turn it all around. Most often they don't and there's a reason for that. Potential doesn't always mean production. Players that lose a lot sometimes learn to tolerate it. A lack of veteran presence often means that players don't learn how to do the little things to win. And by the time these teams figure it out they're stripped by Free Agency departures as players leave for greener pastures.

Now it might be in 3 years that Philly is a contender. But it' could be in 3 years that Philly still sucks because players left or didn't pan out. It's a LONG LONG LONG journey from 20 wins to being a contender.

I accept your critique except that you misuse the term rose-colored glasses.  My view was apessimist's view from the Cs perspective.     McConnelll is a marginal asset ike many of the C's throw-ins, but the rest have good value including JO.  Based on how much Cs fans seem to be valuing our 2017 swap, having 2 picks that could end up top 5 in 2017 might be viewed as nearly twice as good.  Cs have no one who has  the superstar potential of JE or Simmons.  Granted, Simmons could be a bust and Embiid could be injured.  But I'd take either one ahead of anyone on the Cs roster.  Yes, I think Danny would rather play poker with the Sixers assets than the Cs assets - despite your compelling argument to the contrary. 

And, of course a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument i-- f it weren't for the examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate.
No one? Jaylen Brown disagrees.
So does Isaiah Thomas. Let me know when Simmons is averaging 27 PPG and is #7 in the MVP race almost halfway through the season
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Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2017, 03:46:22 PM »

Offline Clench123

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To be fair to the Sixers they had no idea Embiid would be this good. It's great for them that they held onto them.

But last night Jahil Okafor didn't play despite Embiid being on a minutes restriction, fouling out, and Noel picking up his 5th in the 4th quarter.

They're tanking....again....and it's obvious they don't want to hurt one of the their guys and anticipate a trade of a big.

But the optics are horrid. It makes it look like they have no idea how to manage minutes or personalities.

I wouldn't offer anything all that great for one of their bigs. The Sixers are no longer dealing from strength.

I'd offer like KO, Rozier, maybe Demetrius J, a late first, and a 2nd for Jahil and that's it. When you start talking about offering Smart you're just bidding against yourself.

My point is "Oh you want Smart? Odd. Because Smart is actually playing and contributing to winning and Jahil isn't. So if you want Smart what else will you offer us?"

Would I do Smart straight up for Jahil? Definitely. I think Rozier could step into his place and I think we'll be drafting high where there are very very good guards. But there's no need to. Definitely not a starting place.

My man, i love the way you think. 

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Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2017, 04:12:55 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Sixers are in such great position to have a long-term championship run.  They have 2 likely top 2017 ten picks --extremely valuable as picks or trade chips to add to an embarrassment of riches of young star potential in Embiid and Simmons with young assets like JO, Saric, Stauskas, McConnell, Noel.  If the roster is managed well, they'll own the East in 3 years. I think Danny would give his left and right arms to trade places with Philly right now.    Philly, Minny, and LAL all reaping benefits of playing to lose.

You thought wrong.

Embiid certainly looks like a stud. He and two high draft choices this year are the only guarantee Philly has in the bank right now. Otherwise they're a bad team with a bad record.

You really looked at this through rose-colored glasses. To wit:
- Simmons hasn't played at all in the NBA. He'll probably be a good player but he's not a guarantee.
- Saric looks like he can play but doesn't look like a world beater at this point. A nice piece and a guy I'd like to have on the Cs but not likely an All-Star.
- Okafor's stock has been dropping and his stats are down this year.
- Noel is a RFA this season and isn't likely to stay.
- These guys can't play on the court together anyway.
- When you mention Stauskas as an asset - a guy who has been a failure his entire career - you lose all credibility.
- TJ McConnell? A soon-to-be 25 year old averaging 4 points a game and you consider that an asset? Come on. That's pathetic.

That's not an embarrassment of riches. What's an embarrassment is their record the last 3 years. They're on pace for a whopping 22 wins. Oh my. If you think Danny would swap places you're nuts. Danny isn't a loser. Instead of looking over the fence and thinking the grass is greener, try looking at the NBA standings once in a while.

----

As an aside, every year many fans of really crappy teams think they have the pieces to turn it all around. Most often they don't and there's a reason for that. Potential doesn't always mean production. Players that lose a lot sometimes learn to tolerate it. A lack of veteran presence often means that players don't learn how to do the little things to win. And by the time these teams figure it out they're stripped by Free Agency departures as players leave for greener pastures.

Now it might be in 3 years that Philly is a contender. But it' could be in 3 years that Philly still sucks because players left or didn't pan out. It's a LONG LONG LONG journey from 20 wins to being a contender.

I accept your critique except that you misuse the term rose-colored glasses.  My view was apessimist's view from the Cs perspective.     McConnelll is a marginal asset ike many of the C's throw-ins, but the rest have good value including JO.  Based on how much Cs fans seem to be valuing our 2017 swap, having 2 picks that could end up top 5 in 2017 might be viewed as nearly twice as good.  Cs have no one who has  the superstar potential of JE or Simmons.  Granted, Simmons could be a bust and Embiid could be injured.  But I'd take either one ahead of anyone on the Cs roster.  Yes, I think Danny would rather play poker with the Sixers assets than the Cs assets - despite your compelling argument to the contrary. 

And, of course a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument i-- f it weren't for the examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate.
No one? Jaylen Brown disagrees.
So does Isaiah Thomas. Let me know when Simmons is averaging 27 PPG and is #7 in the MVP race almost halfway through the season

IT is a better player than Ben Simmons right now. Does that really need to be said?  He also is presently more valuable (as in, this year) than Embiid.

But let's flip the table and ask, if you were the Sixers GM (who is it now, Colangelo?), do you trade Simmons or Embiid for Isaiah?  I doubt it, but maybe you would if you were in a different place in your team's development.  I just think (always think) that the opportunity to have a superstar is what it's all about in the NBA -- and as much as I love IT, I don't consider him a superstar, or a player who can carry a team.  Yes, in a regular season game against the Heat -- he showed he can carry the team.  But in a championship series, I doubt it.  Obviously, Simmons has proven nothing -- but he just seems like a future star to me, and a possible superstar.  I'd take a bet on him and I could be wrong.  I'd take JE or Simmons ahead of either Brown or IT at this point in time.  If the C's add a top tier player and look like immediate contenders, my view will change.

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2017, 04:43:39 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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totally disagree with the premise.  Are you suggesting they should have traded Jahlil midway through his rookie season averaging 17 and 7?  Why?  That would have been really dumb. 

Trade Noel while he looked like a future DPOY candidate?...  he still does.

I told everyone over the Summer that it didn't make sense to trade anyone until they had a chance to evaluate a number of things.  That's exactly what Philly has been doing.

They had to see if Embiid was healthy.  They also needed to wait to see if any of these guys could play together.  They needed to figure out what their greatest needs were.  They needed to make some guesses about how the upcoming draft can impact those needs (they can potentially have two top 5 picks in a guard-heavy draft). 

Because of injuries early on, they didn't get a chance to even look at Embiid + Okafor until last month.  They played a handful of games together.  From my perspective, it didn't really work.  While that was certainly predictable, it was important that they took a look at it before making a trade.  What if it DID work?  Twin towers have worked successfully in the past for teams (though it was a different generation). 

They haven't had a chance to even look at Embiid + Noel until this past week.  With Noel finally healthy, they shared a handful of minutes together in their win vs the Timberwolves.  This was a long-awaited pairing that NBA fans have long been curious about.  Theoretically, on the defensive end, Noel + Embiid would be the ideal pairing between the 3 bigs, because Noel is far more mobile than Okafor.   Theoretically, on the offensive end, Noel + Embiid would be the ideal pairing between the three bigs because Embiid has range to stretch the floor (something none of the other two pairings have).    In the handful of minutes they played against Minny, it was actually pretty encouraging.  They made up for each other's weaknesses and shared the ball offensively.  Likewise, in the handful of minutes they shared against Boston, it also looked pretty encouraging.  Noel got a dunk off an Embiid assist, Noel stole the ball, Embiid was still able to make an 8 footer without having a clogged lane.  It was an interesting look... one that I assume they will keep looking closely at as the trade deadline approaches.

Last night was a big game for Noel's trade value.  He had inarguably his best game of the season.  He had 13 points, 8 rebounds, 2 assists, 3 blocks and 2 steals in only 25 minutes with 6-8 shooting.  His contributions helped his bottomfeeder team remain close against a top 7 Celtic team.  Frankly, that game was a up-close reminder to teams like the Celtics who have had interest in him - that he's still a potentially game-changing defensive big.  He's extremely mobile and lengthy.  His offense is weak, but the 22 year old kid was able to knock down a mid-range shot and showed he can generate offense off offensive rebounds and alleyoops.   Considering the narrative over the past few months has been that Noel is an injured malcontent who can't help the 76ers win - his recent play (especially last night) went a long way towards showing that #1 - he's still the fantastic defensive prospect we know him to be,  #2 - He's healthy right now, #3 - There didn't seem to be any attitude problems on display (in fact Joel Embiid has recently called him his best friend) and #4 - There might still be a long-term role in Philly for him.

Colangelo recently backed up a lot of the things I tried to explain to people here over the Summer.  It made no sense for them to move one of those guys until they had a chance to evaluate a number of things.   He also recently backed up my comments that making a trade for the sake of making a trade is pointless.  If they don't get an offer worthwhile, they are better off doing nothing.   Lastly, he backed up my opinion that this is a very fluid situation.  A week ago everyone was pretty convinced Noel was in the dog house and on his way out.  This morning we wake up with a new reality where Noel just had a tremendous game and might actually have a promising future playing on that team.   Meanwhile, Okafor is in the DNP zone. Perception is changing daily.   

But let's take a honest look at where we are.

Jahlil Okafor is just 21 years old and his per-36 numbers this season of 17.1 points, 7.7 rebounds, 1.7 assists, 1.8 blocks with 51% shooting still show the same player he was last year.  Both his offensive and defensive rating have improved this season.   If you're a team interested in adding an tradition offense-first big, your opinion of Okafor should be roughly the same as it was last season.  He's still a prospect that could develop into a great player.

Nerlens Noel is just 22 years old and his per-36 numbers in an incredibly small sample size (9 games in limited minutes) of 20 points, 8.3 rebounds, 2.5 steals, 2.2 blocks with 64% shooting reflect a player who at worst is the same dynamic defensive role player he was the past two seasons... at best, it's a player who is actually making notable improvements to his offensive game.    If you had interest in Noel before, only his contract situation would give you pause on having interest in him now.   

So I leave you with two final thoughts.

#1 - I don't think Boston and Philly are a match for Noel.  First, I don't think Boston would be willing to part with the assets that would make it worthwhile for Philly.  Second, while many outside both teams still feel a Smart for Noel trade would be logical, Smart doesn't make sense on Philly.  They need shooting.  Lastly, I've done the math and while it seems we could still offer a decent contract to a player like Hayward this Summer in the small window between giving Noel the QO and matching any offer he receives, last I checked adding Noel would kill our chance of offering a max contract to a player this Summer.  That might be a dealbreaker.   Targeting Okafor might still work financially, but Noel understandably is seen as a better fit given his defensive abilities.   So the bottom line is that I'm looking at this stuff from the perspective of an NBA fan who doesn't really see an outcome where my Celtics stand to benefit.

#2 - For those of you convinced of Okafor and Noel's "trash" trade value, consider the following hypothetical...    You're in charge of Philly.   There's an obvious big man log jam on that team.  Joel Embiid appears to be the transcendent prospect everyone hoped him to be.  Building around Joel is the obvious future for your club.  Ben Simmons is still minimally a couple weeks away from playing, but he too might be a transcendent prospect.    Simmons is an elite passer who presumably will be creating offense for his team similar to a point guard.  His shooting leaves much to be desired right now.  It's clear your team is going to need shooters around him (hence why you've recently gone out and acquired a player like Ilyasova).   The best move seems to be dumping one or both of Okafor and Noel and you can easily assume the target is any guard that can shoot.   

Let's assume the best possible offer for a guy like Noel literally is a bench warming young guard like Terry Rozier.  Rozier is averaging 5.6 points, with 37%/32%/69% shooting.   Questionable how a guy shooting those percentages is going to help, but let's pretend that's the best offer for Noel.   According to fans here, Philly should take that just for the sake of making a trade.   You're in charge of Philly... do you do it?  Before you answer, let's say hypothetically the Laker pick actually conveys.   Philly picks in the top 3 and selects a desperately needed elite guard with star potential (Fultz, Ball or Smith).    With the Laker pick let's say the pick falls around 7th and they take a sharpshooting guard like Malik Monk.   Where does Terry Rozier now fit in that lineup?   Isn't he now getting like 15 minutes per game at most?     How would 15 minutes from Rozier off the bench be better than 15 minutes from Noel off the bench? 
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 05:02:11 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2017, 05:54:25 PM »

Offline colincb

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Sixers were showcasing Noel last night to a prospective buyer.

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2017, 06:06:44 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Ok......you take Giles #1 ....no matter what .....nobody is worth the 2017 pick except Boogie ...

End of Story.


I would trade KO Rozier for Noel, or a low first ......no Nets picks .....sorry Charlie

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2017, 06:09:45 PM »

Offline greece666

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I thought Okafor didn't play because he is considered injured? Something to do with his hamstring?
No, he is healthy. Why Okafor did not play despite Noel and Embiid getting in foul trouble is anyone's guess. The reporters asked Brown after the game, but he was vague > Itís difficult to play three bigs in a 48-minute window. Sometimes itís difficult to pair up two bigs. Tonight wasnít one of those nights. We decided to rotate the group because of that. (from rotoworld)

I think Larbrd33 is right, the Sixers are experimenting with their line up to see what works and what doesn't. Judging from the metrics, the Noel-Embiid duo is the one that works best so far, but I would not jump to conclusions - Philly's FO has proved time and again that it prefers doing things its own way, and its actions are hard to predict.

I'm not interested in speculations about which Philly player is available and for how much.

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2017, 06:45:48 PM »

Offline eja117

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Sixers were showcasing Noel last night to a prospective buyer.
That's kinda a bad sign for the Sixers though. The Celts aren't showcasing Smart or Jaylen. They are actually good. They are actually good enough to get minutes in a regular rotation and Brad Stevens is good enough to manage minutes. The Sixers have problems.

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2017, 06:59:03 PM »

Offline mctyson

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To be fair to the Sixers they had no idea Embiid would be this good. It's great for them that they held onto them.

Everyone always thought Embiid would be this good.  The problem is that he was injured for 2 years and it is highly likely that he will get hurt again.  So, probably not a great idea to hold onto him either.

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2017, 07:07:54 PM »

Offline RAAAAAAAANDY

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Sixers are in such great position to have a long-term championship run.  They have 2 likely top 2017 ten picks --extremely valuable as picks or trade chips to add to an embarrassment of riches of young star potential in Embiid and Simmons with young assets like JO, Saric, Stauskas, McConnell, Noel.  If the roster is managed well, they'll own the East in 3 years. I think Danny would give his left and right arms to trade places with Philly right now.    Philly, Minny, and LAL all reaping benefits of playing to lose.

You thought wrong.

Embiid certainly looks like a stud. He and two high draft choices this year are the only guarantee Philly has in the bank right now. Otherwise they're a bad team with a bad record.

You really looked at this through rose-colored glasses. To wit:
- Simmons hasn't played at all in the NBA. He'll probably be a good player but he's not a guarantee.
- Saric looks like he can play but doesn't look like a world beater at this point. A nice piece and a guy I'd like to have on the Cs but not likely an All-Star.
- Okafor's stock has been dropping and his stats are down this year.
- Noel is a RFA this season and isn't likely to stay.
- These guys can't play on the court together anyway.
- When you mention Stauskas as an asset - a guy who has been a failure his entire career - you lose all credibility.
- TJ McConnell? A soon-to-be 25 year old averaging 4 points a game and you consider that an asset? Come on. That's pathetic.

That's not an embarrassment of riches. What's an embarrassment is their record the last 3 years. They're on pace for a whopping 22 wins. Oh my. If you think Danny would swap places you're nuts. Danny isn't a loser. Instead of looking over the fence and thinking the grass is greener, try looking at the NBA standings once in a while.

----

As an aside, every year many fans of really crappy teams think they have the pieces to turn it all around. Most often they don't and there's a reason for that. Potential doesn't always mean production. Players that lose a lot sometimes learn to tolerate it. A lack of veteran presence often means that players don't learn how to do the little things to win. And by the time these teams figure it out they're stripped by Free Agency departures as players leave for greener pastures.

Now it might be in 3 years that Philly is a contender. But it' could be in 3 years that Philly still sucks because players left or didn't pan out. It's a LONG LONG LONG journey from 20 wins to being a contender.

I accept your critique except that you misuse the term rose-colored glasses.  My view was apessimist's view from the Cs perspective.     McConnelll is a marginal asset ike many of the C's throw-ins, but the rest have good value including JO.  Based on how much Cs fans seem to be valuing our 2017 swap, having 2 picks that could end up top 5 in 2017 might be viewed as nearly twice as good.  Cs have no one who has  the superstar potential of JE or Simmons.  Granted, Simmons could be a bust and Embiid could be injured.  But I'd take either one ahead of anyone on the Cs roster.  Yes, I think Danny would rather play poker with the Sixers assets than the Cs assets - despite your compelling argument to the contrary. 

And, of course a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument i-- f it weren't for the examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate.
No one? Jaylen Brown disagrees.

Dude, Jaylen Brown wasn't even good in college. Stop this nonsense.

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2017, 07:12:28 PM »

Offline RAAAAAAAANDY

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Sixers were showcasing Noel last night to a prospective buyer.
That's kinda a bad sign for the Sixers though. The Celts aren't showcasing Smart or Jaylen. They are actually good. They are actually good enough to get minutes in a regular rotation and Brad Stevens is good enough to manage minutes. The Sixers have problems.

If you don't think Nerlens is good enough to get minutes in just about every rotation in the NBA you're delusional.

He got lost in the shuffle because he pushed back from the team. And the idea that Stevens knows how to manage minutes compared to Brett Brown is comical.

The situations are completely different, you can't move 5s up a position like you can with guards and wings. Smart can play in 2 and 3 guard line ups, nobody is rolling out a 4 Center line up to get Holmes, Okafor and Noel minutes next to Embiid.

And the idea that Jaylen Brown is good enough to play in a rotation is also somewhat deluded. He's getting minutes because he was a top 3 pick, if the Celtics were balls to the wall trying to win every game I doubt they'd be giving major minutes to a rookie with a -4.2 BPM, and PER of 10.5.

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2017, 07:29:35 PM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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"a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument if it weren't for examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate"

You just ruined your own argument. One big reason that the 1980 Celtics turned things around was that Wicks and Rowe and their attitudes were gone. Fitch and Larry took care of those problems in training camp.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 07:36:41 PM by tenn_smoothie »

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2017, 07:30:10 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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Sixers were showcasing Noel last night to a prospective buyer.
That's kinda a bad sign for the Sixers though. The Celts aren't showcasing Smart or Jaylen. They are actually good. They are actually good enough to get minutes in a regular rotation and Brad Stevens is good enough to manage minutes. The Sixers have problems.


The situations are completely different, you can't move 5s up a position like you can with guards and wings. Smart can play in 2 and 3 guard line ups, nobody is rolling out a 4 Center line up to get Holmes, Okafor and Noel minutes next to Embiid.


In other words, the Sixers did a poor job in drafting.

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2017, 07:34:40 PM »

Online tazzmaniac

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To be fair to the Sixers they had no idea Embiid would be this good. It's great for them that they held onto them.

Everyone always thought Embiid would be this good.  The problem is that he was injured for 2 years and it is highly likely that he will get hurt again.  So, probably not a great idea to hold onto him either.
SMH!!!   So now that Sixers finally have their young star who is performing like a franchise player and showing no ill effects from his injury, you think the Sixers should trade him because he might get hurt again.  Congratulations you qualify to be the Kings GM.