Author Topic: Danny needs to push hard into pursuing CP3  (Read 5223 times)

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Re: Danny needs to push hard into pursuing CP3
« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2013, 06:06:50 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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Chris Paul is absolutely the best PG in the league.  The "best-of" list includes Tony Parker, Russell Westbrook, Stephen Curry, Deron WIlliams, healthy Derrick Rose  There are some young guns coming up like Kyrie Irving, Jrue Holiday, Mike Conley, Ricky Rubio, Damian Lillard and John Wall. 

Rondo is somewhere in the Top 10.  Chris Paul is undeniably a superior player...

Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league.  The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas.  It's a big man and scorer's league. 

So upgrading to Chris Paul would be nice, but it wouldn't be enough.

Yes, top five is definitely in the top ten.  Tony Parker, Chauncey Billups, Jason Kidd, and even 2008 Rajon Rondo are all very, very good point guards who have won titles recently.  You may say that point guards don't win titles on their own, but it sure is helpful to have a good one. 

By the way, how do you not count Magic's Lakers as a team whose best player was their point guard?

One of these teams with an elite point guard is due to win a title in the near future.  Here's hoping Danny can put the right pieces together over the course of the next few years so that team can end up being Rondo's Celtics.
I can't tell if you just ignored what I wrote or didn't understand it.

Billups wasn't the best player on his team despite the nonsense Finals MVP award.  The Wallace brothers were that team... Rip Hamilton was the allstar scorer.

You are crediting Jason Kidd for Dirk Nowitski's championship?  K?

You're crediting role-player Rondo for the title won by Kevin Garnett and his sidekick allstar hall-of-famers Pierce and Ray ALlen?

Comeonn...

Again... the last team to win a title with a point guard as the best player was the 1980s Pistons with Isiah Thomas.  That happened AFTER 6'9 Magic Johnson won his. 

Nothing I said was inaccurate. 

Yes, it's nice to have a good point guard.  SUre, I'd love to have Chris Paul.  I'm just sayin, you'd need more.  Rondo sure as heck isn't winning a title as the best player... Chris Paul is proving unlikely to do that as well... despite being vastly superior to Rondo.

I think you misunderstood me, as well.  I did not call either Parker, Billups, Kidd, or Rondo the best player on any of their respective championship teams (although, a case could be made for Billups on that Pistons squad and for Parker on at least one of the Spurs titles).  What I was saying is that they were all very important pieces to their respective championship teams. 

A very strong case could certainly be made that Rondo was the best player on the 2010 team that came within a couple of minutes of winning game seven of the Finals. 

What I don't believe in is this notion that the best player on a championship team has to be a player at a given position.  What wins titles is talent.  These days it takes more than just one elite player to be a talented enough TEAM to win a title. 

The Celtics already have one elite player on their roster to build around.  The trick will be to find or develop others to join him, not to get rid of him because some people feel he plays the wrong position. 
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Re: Danny needs to push hard into pursuing CP3
« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2013, 06:13:50 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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No.

He didn't do it in 2007. He didn't do it in 2010. We have never made the Finals with Rondo as our best player.
are you joking about 2010? that was rondo's legendary year. he's the reason we came back against the cavs, and he's the reason we destroyed the magic. this truly was one of not just the best pg playoff performances ever but an all around greatest playoff performances

Revisionist history?

In 24 games during the 2010 playoffs Rondo had the following averages:

FG% 46.3
FT% 59.6
PPG 15.8
RPG 5.9
APG 9.3
SPG 1.9
TO 3.0

Solid? Yes. Great and legendary? No.

Is this a joke?  16, 9, 6 and 2 is only solid for a point guard?  Maybe it's the times we live in with so many great point guards.  Those numbers for the FOURTH option on a team is unheard of.

I'd say we can all agree that Rondo was the fourth option on that team.

As such, it is very unlikely he was the best player on that team.

...So, because of utterly unimpeachable, irrefutable science, he's never lead his team to the Finals.  :P
You can say things that aren't true all you want, just like you can judge a players worth by his shot attempts.

Edit: And then I go look at shot attempts, Rondo was second by shot attempts anyways the year in question. So really "fourth option" is just your slotting him into that spot in the pecking order by some other criteria.

You stay away from my science.

By the numbers, Rondo was the best player in the playoffs on the 2010 Celtics squad.  He was certainly the best player in the Cavs series where he averaged 21 PPG, 12 APG, 6 RPG, 54% from the field, with a 3.2 A/TO ratio.
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Re: Danny needs to push hard into pursuing CP3
« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2013, 06:18:40 PM »

Online bobbyv

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No.

He didn't do it in 2007. He didn't do it in 2010. We have never made the Finals with Rondo as our best player.
are you joking about 2010? that was rondo's legendary year. he's the reason we came back against the cavs, and he's the reason we destroyed the magic. this truly was one of not just the best pg playoff performances ever but an all around greatest playoff performances

Revisionist history?

In 24 games during the 2010 playoffs Rondo had the following averages:

FG% 46.3
FT% 59.6
PPG 15.8
RPG 5.9
APG 9.3
SPG 1.9
TO 3.0

Solid? Yes. Great and legendary? No.

Is this a joke?  16, 9, 6 and 2 is only solid for a point guard?  Maybe it's the times we live in with so many great point guards.  Those numbers for the FOURTH option on a team is unheard of.

I'd say we can all agree that Rondo was the fourth option on that team.

As such, it is very unlikely he was the best player on that team.

...So, because of utterly unimpeachable, irrefutable science, he's never lead his team to the Finals.  :P
You can say things that aren't true all you want, just like you can judge a players worth by his shot attempts.

Edit: And then I go look at shot attempts, Rondo was second by shot attempts anyways the year in question. So really "fourth option" is just your slotting him into that spot in the pecking order by some other criteria.

You stay away from my science.

By the numbers, Rondo was the best player in the playoffs on the 2010 Celtics squad.  He was certainly the best player in the Cavs series where he averaged 21 PPG, 12 APG, 6 RPG, 54% from the field, with a 3.2 A/TO ratio.
Shhh don't tell him that. It undercuts his argument!

Re: Danny needs to push hard into pursuing CP3
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2013, 06:23:51 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league.  The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas.  It's a big man and scorer's league. 

Can a team win a championship with a point guard as its second-best player?  Can a team win a championship if its second-best player is Rajon Rondo?

Which really becomes "can a team win a championship if it has a pair of top-15(feel free to adjust the number as you see fit) players?"

And the answer is almost certainly yes, they can.
I think what you're trying to allude to is the idea that two borderline all-stars could win a title together... like Josh Smith and Rondo (neither of which is really a top 15 player in this league, though)... Is there a history of a team with only two "top-15" players winning a title?  Billups/Wallace/Wallace/Hamilton were all all-stars so that probably doesn't count since it was 4 players + a solid supporting cast.   Some would argue that Dirk Nowitiski was a top 5 player the year Dallas won a title.   Where are these teams with only two "top 15" players winning a title together?  Are you saying like... Paul George and Roy Hibbert?  We'll see how they do.  Marc Gasol and Randolph?  Hmm... we'll see. 

Generally the teams winning the title have a top 5 guy and a solid supporting cast.  Rondo isn't a top 15 player in this league.  He's a top 10 PG.  Chris Paul is probably a top 5 talent, but you have to go all the way back to Isiah Thomas to find a team that won a title with a PG as their best player... and even then, that team was stacked and had quality big men.

O.K., so Rondo may have dropped out of the top 15 players in the league category after leading the team to a mediocre record early in the season and then getting hurt for the remainder of it, but if he recovers fully from his knee surgery, he has a very good shot to get right back into the ranking of a top 15 player again next season.

He was certainly a top 15 player for the 2012 season.  He was third team all NBA, he was in the top ten for MVP voting, he was, of course, (as a perennial all-star) an all star, he was on the (I believe it was only second team that year) all defensive team, and he was one of the top five overall playoff performers on a team that got to the seventh game of the conference finals. 

Borderline or "fringe" all star?  Please. 

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Re: Danny needs to push hard into pursuing CP3
« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2013, 06:38:30 PM »

Online LarBrd33

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Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league.  The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas.  It's a big man and scorer's league. 

Can a team win a championship with a point guard as its second-best player?  Can a team win a championship if its second-best player is Rajon Rondo?

Which really becomes "can a team win a championship if it has a pair of top-15(feel free to adjust the number as you see fit) players?"

And the answer is almost certainly yes, they can.
I think what you're trying to allude to is the idea that two borderline all-stars could win a title together... like Josh Smith and Rondo (neither of which is really a top 15 player in this league, though)... Is there a history of a team with only two "top-15" players winning a title?  Billups/Wallace/Wallace/Hamilton were all all-stars so that probably doesn't count since it was 4 players + a solid supporting cast.   Some would argue that Dirk Nowitiski was a top 5 player the year Dallas won a title.   Where are these teams with only two "top 15" players winning a title together?  Are you saying like... Paul George and Roy Hibbert?  We'll see how they do.  Marc Gasol and Randolph?  Hmm... we'll see. 

Generally the teams winning the title have a top 5 guy and a solid supporting cast.  Rondo isn't a top 15 player in this league.  He's a top 10 PG.  Chris Paul is probably a top 5 talent, but you have to go all the way back to Isiah Thomas to find a team that won a title with a PG as their best player... and even then, that team was stacked and had quality big men.

O.K., so Rondo may have dropped out of the top 15 players in the league category after leading the team to a mediocre record early in the season and then getting hurt for the remainder of it, but if he recovers fully from his knee surgery, he has a very good shot to get right back into the ranking of a top 15 player again next season.

He was certainly a top 15 player for the 2012 season.  He was third team all NBA, he was in the top ten for MVP voting, he was, of course, (as a perennial all-star) an all star, he was on the (I believe it was only second team that year) all defensive team, and he was one of the top five overall playoff performers on a team that got to the seventh game of the conference finals. 

Borderline or "fringe" all star?  Please.
If Rondo remains with the Celtics, do you think he makes the all-star team next year?

Do you think Boston makes the playoffs?

Just curious what your stance is.  I could totally see him missing the allstar team next year.

Re: Danny needs to push hard into pursuing CP3
« Reply #50 on: May 24, 2013, 06:45:47 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league.  The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas.  It's a big man and scorer's league. 

Can a team win a championship with a point guard as its second-best player?  Can a team win a championship if its second-best player is Rajon Rondo?

Which really becomes "can a team win a championship if it has a pair of top-15(feel free to adjust the number as you see fit) players?"

And the answer is almost certainly yes, they can.
I think what you're trying to allude to is the idea that two borderline all-stars could win a title together... like Josh Smith and Rondo (neither of which is really a top 15 player in this league, though)... Is there a history of a team with only two "top-15" players winning a title?  Billups/Wallace/Wallace/Hamilton were all all-stars so that probably doesn't count since it was 4 players + a solid supporting cast.   Some would argue that Dirk Nowitiski was a top 5 player the year Dallas won a title.   Where are these teams with only two "top 15" players winning a title together?  Are you saying like... Paul George and Roy Hibbert?  We'll see how they do.  Marc Gasol and Randolph?  Hmm... we'll see. 

Generally the teams winning the title have a top 5 guy and a solid supporting cast.  Rondo isn't a top 15 player in this league.  He's a top 10 PG.  Chris Paul is probably a top 5 talent, but you have to go all the way back to Isiah Thomas to find a team that won a title with a PG as their best player... and even then, that team was stacked and had quality big men.

O.K., so Rondo may have dropped out of the top 15 players in the league category after leading the team to a mediocre record early in the season and then getting hurt for the remainder of it, but if he recovers fully from his knee surgery, he has a very good shot to get right back into the ranking of a top 15 player again next season.

He was certainly a top 15 player for the 2012 season.  He was third team all NBA, he was in the top ten for MVP voting, he was, of course, (as a perennial all-star) an all star, he was on the (I believe it was only second team that year) all defensive team, and he was one of the top five overall playoff performers on a team that got to the seventh game of the conference finals. 

Borderline or "fringe" all star?  Please.
If Rondo remains with the Celtics, do you think he makes the all-star team next year?

Do you think Boston makes the playoffs?

Just curious what your stance is.  I could totally see him missing the allstar team next year.

If healthy, I absolutely expect him to be an all star again.  He's been an all-star four years in a row.  After every season, I've read speculation that he wouldn't be an all-star again the following year.  Deron Williams, John Wall, Brandon Jennings, even the likes of Devin Harris were all supposedly going to unseat him at some point. 

We'll see.  There are starting to be a lot of good guards in the East, but I still expect our point guard to be among the very best.

If Rondo and Sully are both fully healthy by training camp, then, yes I expect us to be a playoff team. 
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Re: Danny needs to push hard into pursuing CP3
« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2013, 07:03:32 PM »

Online LarBrd33

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Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league.  The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas.  It's a big man and scorer's league. 

Can a team win a championship with a point guard as its second-best player?  Can a team win a championship if its second-best player is Rajon Rondo?

Which really becomes "can a team win a championship if it has a pair of top-15(feel free to adjust the number as you see fit) players?"

And the answer is almost certainly yes, they can.
I think what you're trying to allude to is the idea that two borderline all-stars could win a title together... like Josh Smith and Rondo (neither of which is really a top 15 player in this league, though)... Is there a history of a team with only two "top-15" players winning a title?  Billups/Wallace/Wallace/Hamilton were all all-stars so that probably doesn't count since it was 4 players + a solid supporting cast.   Some would argue that Dirk Nowitiski was a top 5 player the year Dallas won a title.   Where are these teams with only two "top 15" players winning a title together?  Are you saying like... Paul George and Roy Hibbert?  We'll see how they do.  Marc Gasol and Randolph?  Hmm... we'll see. 

Generally the teams winning the title have a top 5 guy and a solid supporting cast.  Rondo isn't a top 15 player in this league.  He's a top 10 PG.  Chris Paul is probably a top 5 talent, but you have to go all the way back to Isiah Thomas to find a team that won a title with a PG as their best player... and even then, that team was stacked and had quality big men.

O.K., so Rondo may have dropped out of the top 15 players in the league category after leading the team to a mediocre record early in the season and then getting hurt for the remainder of it, but if he recovers fully from his knee surgery, he has a very good shot to get right back into the ranking of a top 15 player again next season.

He was certainly a top 15 player for the 2012 season.  He was third team all NBA, he was in the top ten for MVP voting, he was, of course, (as a perennial all-star) an all star, he was on the (I believe it was only second team that year) all defensive team, and he was one of the top five overall playoff performers on a team that got to the seventh game of the conference finals. 

Borderline or "fringe" all star?  Please.
If Rondo remains with the Celtics, do you think he makes the all-star team next year?

Do you think Boston makes the playoffs?

Just curious what your stance is.  I could totally see him missing the allstar team next year.

If healthy, I absolutely expect him to be an all star again.  He's been an all-star four years in a row.  After every season, I've read speculation that he wouldn't be an all-star again the following year.  Deron Williams, John Wall, Brandon Jennings, even the likes of Devin Harris were all supposedly going to unseat him at some point. 

We'll see.  There are starting to be a lot of good guards in the East, but I still expect our point guard to be among the very best.

If Rondo and Sully are both fully healthy by training camp, then, yes I expect us to be a playoff team.
Lot of competition in the East.  Wade and Rose likely will be voted in as the guards.  Then the coaches have to pick 2 from this list:  Paul George, Jrue Holiday, Kyrie Irving, Deron WIlliams, John Wall, Monta Ellis, Kemba Walker, Brandon Jennings, Jeff Teague, Kyle Lowry, Jose Calderon, Rajon Rondo.

If Rondo plays like he did in previous years... he probably will make it.  Not a given, though.   Coming off major surgery and the team will probably be pretty different.

Re: Danny needs to push hard into pursuing CP3
« Reply #52 on: May 24, 2013, 07:14:33 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league.  The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas.  It's a big man and scorer's league. 

Can a team win a championship with a point guard as its second-best player?  Can a team win a championship if its second-best player is Rajon Rondo?

Which really becomes "can a team win a championship if it has a pair of top-15(feel free to adjust the number as you see fit) players?"

And the answer is almost certainly yes, they can.
I think what you're trying to allude to is the idea that two borderline all-stars could win a title together... like Josh Smith and Rondo (neither of which is really a top 15 player in this league, though)... Is there a history of a team with only two "top-15" players winning a title?  Billups/Wallace/Wallace/Hamilton were all all-stars so that probably doesn't count since it was 4 players + a solid supporting cast.   Some would argue that Dirk Nowitiski was a top 5 player the year Dallas won a title.   Where are these teams with only two "top 15" players winning a title together?  Are you saying like... Paul George and Roy Hibbert?  We'll see how they do.  Marc Gasol and Randolph?  Hmm... we'll see. 

Generally the teams winning the title have a top 5 guy and a solid supporting cast.  Rondo isn't a top 15 player in this league.  He's a top 10 PG.  Chris Paul is probably a top 5 talent, but you have to go all the way back to Isiah Thomas to find a team that won a title with a PG as their best player... and even then, that team was stacked and had quality big men.

O.K., so Rondo may have dropped out of the top 15 players in the league category after leading the team to a mediocre record early in the season and then getting hurt for the remainder of it, but if he recovers fully from his knee surgery, he has a very good shot to get right back into the ranking of a top 15 player again next season.

He was certainly a top 15 player for the 2012 season.  He was third team all NBA, he was in the top ten for MVP voting, he was, of course, (as a perennial all-star) an all star, he was on the (I believe it was only second team that year) all defensive team, and he was one of the top five overall playoff performers on a team that got to the seventh game of the conference finals. 

Borderline or "fringe" all star?  Please.
If Rondo remains with the Celtics, do you think he makes the all-star team next year?

Do you think Boston makes the playoffs?

Just curious what your stance is.  I could totally see him missing the allstar team next year.

If healthy, I absolutely expect him to be an all star again.  He's been an all-star four years in a row.  After every season, I've read speculation that he wouldn't be an all-star again the following year.  Deron Williams, John Wall, Brandon Jennings, even the likes of Devin Harris were all supposedly going to unseat him at some point. 

We'll see.  There are starting to be a lot of good guards in the East, but I still expect our point guard to be among the very best.

If Rondo and Sully are both fully healthy by training camp, then, yes I expect us to be a playoff team.
Lot of competition in the East.  Wade and Rose likely will be voted in as the guards.  Then the coaches have to pick 2 from this list:  Paul George, Jrue Holiday, Kyrie Irving, Deron WIlliams, John Wall, Monta Ellis, Kemba Walker, Brandon Jennings, Jeff Teague, Kyle Lowry, Jose Calderon, Rajon Rondo.

If Rondo plays like he did in previous years... he probably will make it.  Not a given, though.   Coming off major surgery and the team will probably be pretty different.

No, it's not a given with Rondo coming off major surgery.  We'll see what happens.  Hopefully, he makes a complete recovery in time for the start of the season. 
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Re: Danny needs to push hard into pursuing CP3
« Reply #53 on: May 24, 2013, 09:52:05 PM »

Offline Yogi

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Surgery or not Rondo will be an all star.  I hope he can make a full mental recovery.  Rondo is a high skill, high IQ player.  He is not Derrick Rose whose skill consists of doing impossibly athletic things with his body. Rondo will still rack up the assists.  He's still going to have great hands and a godly array of jabs and feints to make his defenders dance. 
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Re: Danny needs to push hard into pursuing CP3
« Reply #54 on: May 24, 2013, 10:03:50 PM »

Online bobbyv

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CP3 is good enough for a second round exit at best. Happens all the time in NBA 2K13  :P

Re: Danny needs to push hard into pursuing CP3
« Reply #55 on: May 24, 2013, 10:24:56 PM »

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The more time he spends pursuing, the more time he wastes.
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Re: Danny needs to push hard into pursuing CP3
« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2013, 11:12:34 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Chris Paul is absolutely the best PG in the league.  The "best-of" list includes Tony Parker, Russell Westbrook, Stephen Curry, Deron WIlliams, healthy Derrick Rose  There are some young guns coming up like Kyrie Irving, Jrue Holiday, Mike Conley, Ricky Rubio, Damian Lillard and John Wall. 

Rondo is somewhere in the Top 10.  Chris Paul is undeniably a superior player...

Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league.  The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas.  It's a big man and scorer's league. 

So upgrading to Chris Paul would be nice, but it wouldn't be enough.

Yes, top five is definitely in the top ten.  Tony Parker, Chauncey Billups, Jason Kidd, and even 2008 Rajon Rondo are all very, very good point guards who have won titles recently.  You may say that point guards don't win titles on their own, but it sure is helpful to have a good one. 

By the way, how do you not count Magic's Lakers as a team whose best player was their point guard?

One of these teams with an elite point guard is due to win a title in the near future.  Here's hoping Danny can put the right pieces together over the course of the next few years so that team can end up being Rondo's Celtics.
I can't tell if you just ignored what I wrote or didn't understand it.

Billups wasn't the best player on his team despite the nonsense Finals MVP award.  The Wallace brothers were that team... Rip Hamilton was the allstar scorer.

You are crediting Jason Kidd for Dirk Nowitski's championship?  K?

You're crediting role-player Rondo for the title won by Kevin Garnett and his sidekick allstar hall-of-famers Pierce and Ray ALlen?

Comeonn...

Again... the last team to win a title with a point guard as the best player was the 1980s Pistons with Isiah Thomas.  That happened AFTER 6'9 Magic Johnson won his. 

Nothing I said was inaccurate. 

Yes, it's nice to have a good point guard.  SUre, I'd love to have Chris Paul.  I'm just sayin, you'd need more.  Rondo sure as heck isn't winning a title as the best player... Chris Paul is proving unlikely to do that as well... despite being vastly superior to Rondo.
I can't argue with anything LarBrd is saying here. He's 100% correct. Isiah was the last PG led team to win a title...23 years ago.

The problem here is not upgrading Rondo to Paul because that nets you so much less than if you find/sign/trade for or draft/grow a player better than Rajon Rondo to play with Rondo. Or you trade Rondo and other assets for a superduperstar that isn't a PG, if one becomes available.

That's what you do with Rondo now, especially since the low ball offers Danny will get because of the injury uncertainty means it makes the most sense to make Rondo show that he is Rondo and if next year isn't looking magical but it looks like Rondo is back, maybe you move him at the trade deadline and max out his value.

Re: Danny needs to push hard into pursuing CP3
« Reply #57 on: May 25, 2013, 12:53:07 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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Chris Paul is absolutely the best PG in the league.  The "best-of" list includes Tony Parker, Russell Westbrook, Stephen Curry, Deron WIlliams, healthy Derrick Rose  There are some young guns coming up like Kyrie Irving, Jrue Holiday, Mike Conley, Ricky Rubio, Damian Lillard and John Wall. 

Rondo is somewhere in the Top 10.  Chris Paul is undeniably a superior player...

Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league.  The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas.  It's a big man and scorer's league. 

So upgrading to Chris Paul would be nice, but it wouldn't be enough.

Yes, top five is definitely in the top ten.  Tony Parker, Chauncey Billups, Jason Kidd, and even 2008 Rajon Rondo are all very, very good point guards who have won titles recently.  You may say that point guards don't win titles on their own, but it sure is helpful to have a good one. 

By the way, how do you not count Magic's Lakers as a team whose best player was their point guard?

One of these teams with an elite point guard is due to win a title in the near future.  Here's hoping Danny can put the right pieces together over the course of the next few years so that team can end up being Rondo's Celtics.
I can't tell if you just ignored what I wrote or didn't understand it.

Billups wasn't the best player on his team despite the nonsense Finals MVP award.  The Wallace brothers were that team... Rip Hamilton was the allstar scorer.

You are crediting Jason Kidd for Dirk Nowitski's championship?  K?

You're crediting role-player Rondo for the title won by Kevin Garnett and his sidekick allstar hall-of-famers Pierce and Ray ALlen?

Comeonn...

Again... the last team to win a title with a point guard as the best player was the 1980s Pistons with Isiah Thomas.  That happened AFTER 6'9 Magic Johnson won his. 

Nothing I said was inaccurate. 

Yes, it's nice to have a good point guard.  SUre, I'd love to have Chris Paul.  I'm just sayin, you'd need more.  Rondo sure as heck isn't winning a title as the best player... Chris Paul is proving unlikely to do that as well... despite being vastly superior to Rondo.
I can't argue with anything LarBrd is saying here. He's 100% correct. Isiah was the last PG led team to win a title...23 years ago.

The problem here is not upgrading Rondo to Paul because that nets you so much less than if you find/sign/trade for or draft/grow a player better than Rajon Rondo to play with Rondo. Or you trade Rondo and other assets for a superduperstar that isn't a PG, if one becomes available.

That's what you do with Rondo now, especially since the low ball offers Danny will get because of the injury uncertainty means it makes the most sense to make Rondo show that he is Rondo and if next year isn't looking magical but it looks like Rondo is back, maybe you move him at the trade deadline and max out his value.

I think you guys are way to hung up on the whole "who the best player is" thing.  Plenty of recent titleists have had more than one player that could lay claim to the title of The Best Player on the Team.  On a good team, certainly the kind of team I want to see my Celtics continue to be, there can be multiple "best players."  That's o.k. by me, as it means that you have a good team, and not just a really, really good player with a bunch of guys around to support him. 

This whole other notion that good point guards don't win titles is silly to me, as well.  Of course, good point guards win titles.  Tony Parker, Jason Kidd, Chauncey Billups, Magic Johnson, Isaiah Thomas, Rajon Rondo, Gary Payton, Dennis Johnson, Mo Cheeks are the names of some of the better ones who have been crucial members of championships since I've been watching the game. 

I say, so what, if you want to argue that those guys weren't the best guys on their respective teams.  Does that mean that Dennis Rodman was useless for the Bulls or that Kevin McHale was useless for the Celtics?  Was Clyde Drexler nothing but a scrub for the Houston Rockets?  How much did Moses Malone suck for the Sixers championship team in the early eighties?  What about the aging Kareem Abdul Jabbar on Magic Johnson's Lakers? Pau Gasol on the Lakers?  Dwayne Wade on the Heat?  Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili for the Spurs? None of the above mentioned guys was their team's "best player."  Most, if not all of them are, however, hall of famers or future hall of famers.  They were very important members of championship teams. 

This whole line of thinking of; "let's get rid of our best player, because he's not good enough," basically means that following that logic, pretty much every team other than possibly the Miami Heat should be looking to get rid of their best players at all times to "upgrade"  because he's not good enough to be the best player on a championship team.  It's such an absurdly high bar when only one player currently in the league fits into that category.

Not to worry, though, the NEXT ONE is surely out there in high school or middle school somewhere.  All we have to do is be really bad for a really long time, and we are bound to get our guy. 

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Re: Danny needs to push hard into pursuing CP3
« Reply #58 on: May 25, 2013, 01:38:42 AM »

Offline Edgar

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Getting Paul here would require having a championship-caliber team in place.  We have pieces in Rondo, Pierce, KG, Green, Bradley, and Sully, but I don't think we could afford Paul and keep those players.

So while I'm sure Paul would love Doc as a coach, the supporting cast wouldn't be all that great.

well. deandre and blake werent better than pp and kg that time............ in time
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Re: Danny needs to push hard into pursuing CP3
« Reply #59 on: May 25, 2013, 02:26:45 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league.  The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas.  It's a big man and scorer's league. 

Can a team win a championship with a point guard as its second-best player?  Can a team win a championship if its second-best player is Rajon Rondo?

Which really becomes "can a team win a championship if it has a pair of top-15(feel free to adjust the number as you see fit) players?"

And the answer is almost certainly yes, they can.
I think what you're trying to allude to is the idea that two borderline all-stars could win a title together... like Josh Smith and Rondo (neither of which is really a top 15 player in this league, though)... Is there a history of a team with only two "top-15" players winning a title?  Billups/Wallace/Wallace/Hamilton were all all-stars so that probably doesn't count since it was 4 players + a solid supporting cast.   Some would argue that Dirk Nowitiski was a top 5 player the year Dallas won a title.   Where are these teams with only two "top 15" players winning a title together?  Are you saying like... Paul George and Roy Hibbert?  We'll see how they do.  Marc Gasol and Randolph?  Hmm... we'll see. 

Generally the teams winning the title have a top 5 guy and a solid supporting cast.  Rondo isn't a top 15 player in this league.  He's a top 10 PG.  Chris Paul is probably a top 5 talent, but you have to go all the way back to Isiah Thomas to find a team that won a title with a PG as their best player... and even then, that team was stacked and had quality big men.

O.K., so Rondo may have dropped out of the top 15 players in the league category after leading the team to a mediocre record early in the season and then getting hurt for the remainder of it, but if he recovers fully from his knee surgery, he has a very good shot to get right back into the ranking of a top 15 player again next season.

He was certainly a top 15 player for the 2012 season.  He was third team all NBA, he was in the top ten for MVP voting, he was, of course, (as a perennial all-star) an all star, he was on the (I believe it was only second team that year) all defensive team, and he was one of the top five overall playoff performers on a team that got to the seventh game of the conference finals. 

Borderline or "fringe" all star?  Please.
If Rondo remains with the Celtics, do you think he makes the all-star team next year?

Do you think Boston makes the playoffs?

Just curious what your stance is.  I could totally see him missing the allstar team next year.

  When Rondo's healthy in the playoffs he's one of the best players in the league. I think that's much more important that whether you make the all-star team.

 

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