Author Topic: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?  (Read 5949 times)

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Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #60 on: February 23, 2013, 09:20:50 AM »

Offline rondohondo

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It will hurt our bench somewhat but a Green KG Bass frontcourt would be even better.  Bass who is a mediocre rebounder at the four would be decent at the three.  Move PP over to SG and see if KG and Green can protect the rim because guys are going to get around Bass and PP.

ugh , no offense, but that sounds like a terrible Idea. That leaves us with no backup sf, no backup pf , and playing PP out of position( yes he can match up with bigger guards, but no way he stays in front of Monta Ellis types, and there are a lot of them in the NBA today). Against certain matchups it works, but only in spurts IMO.

Green needs to be starting for Bass. He is our 3rd best players and probably second best scorer, he need to be in the starting lineup.

With Terry, Crawford on the bench , we have plenty of scoring off the bench. Terrence Williams can run the point for the bench, facilitating for Crawford, Terry and Bass.

Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #61 on: February 23, 2013, 09:25:07 AM »

Offline TheTruthFot18

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WEEI had the C's losing last night, based on roster shake ups and road trip. Wish I saw this game. Gongrats to Green, awesome game
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Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #62 on: February 23, 2013, 10:31:18 AM »

Offline kgainez

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Jeff Green was our 4th best player before the Rondo injury... 3rd best player now.  And yet he's coming off the bench backing up Paul Pierce, because Paul Pierce is still our 2nd best player behind KG and Paul Pierce is our best offensive weapon.

Pierce in the last 11 games (where we have gone 8-3) has averaged 17 points, 9 rebounds and 7 assists.  He's shooting poorly, but he's still clearly the man for this team on offense.

Since Rondo got injured, Jeff Green has averaged 16 off the bench on extremely efficient shooting.  He's averaging a somewhat limited 30 minutes.  The guy is clearly talented.  He's been playing very effective defense, imo.

Two thoughts...

#1 -  I never liked Jeff Green at PF in Seattle.  He's a SF, but he was stuck playing with Durant... so they stuck him at PF.  He's not a great rebounder.  I don't like seeing him play anything other than SF.

#2 -  That said, Bass is crap and is probably best suited as a backup big.  Fwiw, Jeff Green (at 6'9 235) is actually bigger than Josh Smith (only 6'9 225).    Take a look at a team like Miami and they are actually playing Battier more minutes than Haslem... they have Bosh at Center... so basically LeBron is the default "PF" in that "small ball" approach.   I don't see how a starting lineup of PG - Bradly, SG - Lee, SF - Pierce, PF - Green, C - KG would be all that different.  What's the purpose of starting Bass?  he can't create his offense... he fits well with Rondo spotting up for open jumpers, but without him he's kind of dreadful. Is Bass a better defender??

So should we just start Jeff out of position at PF??  Do you think it would be beneficial?  Would it hurt us?  Why shouldn't Jeff be getting 37+ minutes a night?  Start him at PF next to Pierce.  When Pierce gets winded, switch Jeff to SF and bring in one of of the backup bigs.  I'd like to at least see it attempted.  He hasn't started a single game all year.

there are stats somewhere (and I'm sorry I don't have them) that suggest Jeff Green is actually playing better at the 4 here. I believe it's +/- stat with like a 2 or 3 point differential.

I think it works here because we so believe in/have been compelled to play small ball. plus we aren't doing the half court thing as much. and I just think JG has all around turned a new corner in his life/career.

with that said, I'd definitely try it.

Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #63 on: February 23, 2013, 10:41:22 AM »

Offline LB3533

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Outside of Indiana (David West) and Chicago (Carlos Boozer), there really aren't that many true PFs who are actually playing PF anymore.

Most of the PF's in the East are playing Center.

I think out West, if Jeff Green were to play PF full time, it would serve as a disadvantage, but out here in the East it's not that horrible on our end.

We already stink at rebounding, but if we can throw a wrench into the other team's defensive schemes, our offense and our running game will benefit.



Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #64 on: February 23, 2013, 10:42:09 AM »

Offline kgainez

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Outside of Indiana (David West) and Chicago (Carlos Boozer), there really aren't that many true PFs who are actually playing PF anymore.

Most of the PF's in the East are playing Center.

I think out West, if Jeff Green were to play PF full time, it would serve as a disadvantage, but out here in the East it's not that horrible on our end.

We already stink at rebounding, but if we can throw a wrench into the other team's defensive schemes, our offense and our running game will benefit.

good point

Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #65 on: February 23, 2013, 10:49:16 AM »

Offline Evantime34

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Jeff Green was our 4th best player before the Rondo injury... 3rd best player now.  And yet he's coming off the bench backing up Paul Pierce, because Paul Pierce is still our 2nd best player behind KG and Paul Pierce is our best offensive weapon.

Pierce in the last 11 games (where we have gone 8-3) has averaged 17 points, 9 rebounds and 7 assists.  He's shooting poorly, but he's still clearly the man for this team on offense.

Since Rondo got injured, Jeff Green has averaged 16 off the bench on extremely efficient shooting.  He's averaging a somewhat limited 30 minutes.  The guy is clearly talented.  He's been playing very effective defense, imo.

Two thoughts...

#1 -  I never liked Jeff Green at PF in Seattle.  He's a SF, but he was stuck playing with Durant... so they stuck him at PF.  He's not a great rebounder.  I don't like seeing him play anything other than SF.

#2 -  That said, Bass is crap and is probably best suited as a backup big.  Fwiw, Jeff Green (at 6'9 235) is actually bigger than Josh Smith (only 6'9 225).    Take a look at a team like Miami and they are actually playing Battier more minutes than Haslem... they have Bosh at Center... so basically LeBron is the default "PF" in that "small ball" approach.   I don't see how a starting lineup of PG - Bradly, SG - Lee, SF - Pierce, PF - Green, C - KG would be all that different.  What's the purpose of starting Bass?  he can't create his offense... he fits well with Rondo spotting up for open jumpers, but without him he's kind of dreadful. Is Bass a better defender??

So should we just start Jeff out of position at PF??  Do you think it would be beneficial?  Would it hurt us?  Why shouldn't Jeff be getting 37+ minutes a night?  Start him at PF next to Pierce.  When Pierce gets winded, switch Jeff to SF and bring in one of of the backup bigs.  I'd like to at least see it attempted.  He hasn't started a single game all year.

there are stats somewhere (and I'm sorry I don't have them) that suggest Jeff Green is actually playing better at the 4 here. I believe it's +/- stat with like a 2 or 3 point differential.

I think it works here because we so believe in/have been compelled to play small ball. plus we aren't doing the half court thing as much. and I just think JG has all around turned a new corner in his life/career.

with that said, I'd definitely try it.
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He's a +61 at PF and a -15 at SF this year.
His net PER (his PER- the PER he allows for the guy guarding him) is +2.6 at PF and +.6 at SF.

I do agree that he didn't look like a good fit at PF during his days in Seattle/OKC, but I think that had to do with who he was playing with at the time. Pierce is strong enough to help on 4's defensively while Durant wasn't back then, Pierce's rebounding and passing now seem to be superior to early Durant.

I also think a big part of these numbers are that early in the season Green played almost exclusively as Pierce's back up right after heart surgery. Now he is getting more playing time, is in a better flow and happens to be playing more PF. I think right now regardless of the position you put him in he is going to play well.
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Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #66 on: February 23, 2013, 11:01:41 AM »

Offline More Banners

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I love bigs, post play, and dominating the boards.  If I were building a team, that's what I'd try to do.  I'd rather pair KG with someone like Gortat, Varejao, etc. and go with a mid-80's Houston "twin towers" lineup...

But since that just isn't an option, it's never a bad idea to start your best 5, and Green is surely in that group.

Bringing in the new guys should replace Green's scoring off the bench.

Start Green!

Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #67 on: February 23, 2013, 11:59:12 AM »

Offline LB3533

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I love bigs, post play, and dominating the boards.  If I were building a team, that's what I'd try to do.  I'd rather pair KG with someone like Gortat, Varejao, etc. and go with a mid-80's Houston "twin towers" lineup...

But since that just isn't an option, it's never a bad idea to start your best 5, and Green is surely in that group.

Bringing in the new guys should replace Green's scoring off the bench.

Start Green!

Dude, back in the day, every team wanted to have a "twin tower" duo.

Nowadays, teams are lucky to have "one tower".

There are just no more dominant big mans today. Dwight Howard is considered a dominant big man, but he couldn't hold his own against McHale or Ewing down low. We won't even bring Olajuwon into the discussion.

In today's game, Lebron's post game is considered dominant low post play.

Heck, if Ala Abdelnaby was still playing, he'd be one of the most dominant post players in the league, today.


Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #68 on: February 23, 2013, 12:22:28 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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I love bigs, post play, and dominating the boards.  If I were building a team, that's what I'd try to do.  I'd rather pair KG with someone like Gortat, Varejao, etc. and go with a mid-80's Houston "twin towers" lineup...

But since that just isn't an option, it's never a bad idea to start your best 5, and Green is surely in that group.

Bringing in the new guys should replace Green's scoring off the bench.

Start Green!

Dude, back in the day, every team wanted to have a "twin tower" duo.

Nowadays, teams are lucky to have "one tower".

There are just no more dominant big mans today. Dwight Howard is considered a dominant big man, but he couldn't hold his own against McHale or Ewing down low. We won't even bring Olajuwon into the discussion.

In today's game, Lebron's post game is considered dominant low post play.

Heck, if Ala Abdelnaby was still playing, he'd be one of the most dominant post players in the league, today.
Phil Jackson has an interesting point. He says if you are going to allow zone defense, you need to increase the shot clock to more than 24 seconds. Interesting thought.

Since it is harder to get post scoring with clogged lanes, teams are often reluctant to use up the 6 or so seconds it would take to post the ball and to work on a move. Forget about reposting. The rules might be partly responsible for the apparent loss of post play.

And wasn't Ewing's best move a jumper?

Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #69 on: February 23, 2013, 12:29:42 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I love bigs, post play, and dominating the boards.  If I were building a team, that's what I'd try to do.  I'd rather pair KG with someone like Gortat, Varejao, etc. and go with a mid-80's Houston "twin towers" lineup...

But since that just isn't an option, it's never a bad idea to start your best 5, and Green is surely in that group.

Bringing in the new guys should replace Green's scoring off the bench.

Start Green!

Dude, back in the day, every team wanted to have a "twin tower" duo.

Nowadays, teams are lucky to have "one tower".

There are just no more dominant big mans today. Dwight Howard is considered a dominant big man, but he couldn't hold his own against McHale or Ewing down low. We won't even bring Olajuwon into the discussion.

In today's game, Lebron's post game is considered dominant low post play.

Heck, if Ala Abdelnaby was still playing, he'd be one of the most dominant post players in the league, today.
Phil Jackson has an interesting point. He says if you are going to allow zone defense, you need to increase the shot clock to more than 24 seconds. Interesting thought.

  I don't think lower scores and longer possessions are really what today's game is lacking.

Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #70 on: March 19, 2013, 03:56:30 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Now that we have someone like Terrence Williams back there, this team should strongly consider starting Jeff Green, whether it be at the 3, with Pierce at the 2, or at the 4 instead of Bass.

Not sure which is the best course of action at the moment.

I am strongly opposed to Pierce starting at the 2.
Available buyout candidates might dictate that a little.  With the amount of guard talent we have, it no longer makes sense to start Pierce at the 2.  It only ever made sense to me, because I thought we could combine some assets (including guards) to land a legit big.  But since that didn't happen... let our guards do what they can do. 

Still.. we're so weak at the bigs that I really would love to see Jeff get more minutes as a PF.  He's one of our best players... he should be playing 38 minutes a night.

WHOA there, 38 minutes? I was pushing for 30. 38 is too much, we signed Terrence so he could spread out minutes for the playoffs. Let's not overplay any guys.

I definitely think Doc owes Green some more chances though. He's a starter on all but 6 teams in the league, give him starter-minutes at least though!

He's been playing 31 minutes per game since Rondo went down.  That's starter level minutes.

Yep. I like that. 38 is Luol Deng level, no thanks!

Green might not start on a couple teams... but on Boston he's the 3rd best player.  Why shouldn't our 3rd best player get 38 minutes a night?

Boy oh boy do I enjoy when a plan comes together.  I merely wanted to see what it would look like if green started at PF and played 38 minutes...

And the very next game he gets to start at PF and play 38 minutes...

He responds with 31 points on 11-14 shooting... 7 boards, 4 assists, 5 blocks and 3 streals

*Drops microphone*

... But seriously, he should be starting over Bass.  Our 3rd best player should be a starter.  I rest my case

So far in the 4 games that Jeff Green has started for us:

35 minutes - 24.5 points, 5.5 rebounds, 2.8 assists, 2.3 blocks, 1.3 steals 62% shooting, 62% from three, 79% from the line

I'm just sayin... is there really any reason why Bass should be starting over Jeff Green?

Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #71 on: March 19, 2013, 04:12:45 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Now that we have someone like Terrence Williams back there, this team should strongly consider starting Jeff Green, whether it be at the 3, with Pierce at the 2, or at the 4 instead of Bass.

Not sure which is the best course of action at the moment.

I am strongly opposed to Pierce starting at the 2.
Available buyout candidates might dictate that a little.  With the amount of guard talent we have, it no longer makes sense to start Pierce at the 2.  It only ever made sense to me, because I thought we could combine some assets (including guards) to land a legit big.  But since that didn't happen... let our guards do what they can do. 

Still.. we're so weak at the bigs that I really would love to see Jeff get more minutes as a PF.  He's one of our best players... he should be playing 38 minutes a night.

WHOA there, 38 minutes? I was pushing for 30. 38 is too much, we signed Terrence so he could spread out minutes for the playoffs. Let's not overplay any guys.

I definitely think Doc owes Green some more chances though. He's a starter on all but 6 teams in the league, give him starter-minutes at least though!

He's been playing 31 minutes per game since Rondo went down.  That's starter level minutes.

Yep. I like that. 38 is Luol Deng level, no thanks!

Green might not start on a couple teams... but on Boston he's the 3rd best player.  Why shouldn't our 3rd best player get 38 minutes a night?

Boy oh boy do I enjoy when a plan comes together.  I merely wanted to see what it would look like if green started at PF and played 38 minutes...

And the very next game he gets to start at PF and play 38 minutes...

He responds with 31 points on 11-14 shooting... 7 boards, 4 assists, 5 blocks and 3 streals

*Drops microphone*

... But seriously, he should be starting over Bass.  Our 3rd best player should be a starter.  I rest my case

So far in the 4 games that Jeff Green has started for us:

35 minutes - 24.5 points, 5.5 rebounds, 2.8 assists, 2.3 blocks, 1.3 steals 62% shooting, 62% from three, 79% from the line

I'm just sayin... is there really any reason why Bass should be starting over Jeff Green?

At this point, certainly not.
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Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #72 on: March 19, 2013, 04:33:23 PM »

Offline CapnDunks

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There aren't a lot of Big PF's that are going to post Green up. But when KG rotates to help, having a bigger stronger 4 who won't just get banged out of the way is nice. Bass rotates onto centers and is more capable of holding them out of the paint than green would be.

Starting pierce at the 2 is going to mean a lot of dribble penetration because he can't stay in front of faster guards.

Starting green at the 4 and pierce at the 3 means either more minutes for pierce or lots of small ball with Lee or Twill guarding 3s.

Even if you start green at the 4, you'd probably have to shuffle the lineup against teams with a strong 4 with any real post moves.

Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #73 on: March 19, 2013, 04:38:03 PM »

Offline CelticConcourse

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I like him on the bench. How much of a bench boost will Bass give us? Some, but not much as Green would.

I like JET+Green+Wilcox. He's fine with the bench.
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Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #74 on: March 19, 2013, 04:48:05 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I really hope Doc was paying attention to last night's game because the blue print for this team to beat Miami was in last night's game. I know people on this board HATE small ball but good small ball will beat this Miami team.

Doc has to start KG/Green/Pierce/Bradley/Lee against this team and play Green and Pierce 40 minutes a night in a series.

KG will match with Bosh
Pierce will match with LeBron
Bradley will match with Wade
Lee will match with Chalmers

And then the mismatch that kept us in last night's game is then exploited. Battier does okay on Green but major minutes by Anderson and Haslem will be played against Green and he clearly can take both off the dribble and score going to the basket. He did it over and over and over again last night.

And when Bosh and Lebron try to sneak over and help on Green after the C's spread the floor and open up the middle for him, Doc can make sure KG and Pierce have some baseline extended positioning for the kick out and the easy jay.

Now I don't think the C's start green versus Indiana, Atlanta, Chicago, and maybe NY if Amare gets back but against Miami, Brooklyn, and Milwaukee I think Green starting gives the C's significant match up advantages that those teams will find difficult to guard against, namely, two SF's that at times can be elite scorers.

 

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