Author Topic: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?  (Read 5362 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TripleOT

  • Chat Moderator
  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1993
  • Tommy Points: 213
Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2013, 10:48:25 PM »
Bass and Green should never play together as the bigs, unless Doc enjoys the other team getting three or four chances to make a basket. 

Unless DA can sign a big, or Wilcox is ready to play steady rotation minutes without getting injured again, Green has to play some PF minutes.  With KG playing his 30 minutes, that leaves 66 minutes for the other bigs. Even if Bass could play the 31 mpg he did last season, his career high, that would leave 35 big minutes.  Wilcox can play maybe half those those minutes until the next injury. 

KG 30 mpg
Bass 30 mpg (unfortunately)
Wilcox 16 mpg
Green as PF 20 mpg

Ainge needs to sign another big asap, or it's time to force feed Melo some minutes.   


Offline CelticConcourse

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6175
  • Tommy Points: 382
  • Jeff Green
Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2013, 10:49:04 PM »
Let Green play starter minutes off the bench, Harden much? ;)
Jeff Green - Top 5 SF

[Kevin Garnett]
"I've always said J. Green is going to be one of the best players to ever play this game"

Offline ctrey

  • Jeff Green
  • Posts: 529
  • Tommy Points: 84
Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2013, 10:49:11 PM »
Jeff Green is a small forward. Every bit of analysis of him at the power forward spot is awful. He played the four in OKC and was overmatched and misused. Let the poor guy play the three where he belongs. From John Hollinger:

Green was a train wreck as a face-up 4, shooting under 30 percent on 3s in consecutive seasons, getting torn apart by post players and rebounding like a wing.

As a wing, however, there's the hope that his size will become an advantage, and that he can take some smaller 3s on the block with his jump hook. Meanwhile, his defensive stats as a 3 in his few games as a Celtic in 2010-11 were vastly superior to his results as a 4 in Oklahoma City. The hope is he can provide another big wing to guard the likes of LeBron James in the playoffs, but it's not clear whom the Celtics thought they were bidding against with this deal.


Green has been very good at the three this year, so good that I was hoping they would have dealt Pierce and let Green start. So much for that.

Offline CelticConcourse

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6175
  • Tommy Points: 382
  • Jeff Green
Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2013, 10:51:10 PM »
Bass and Green should never play together as the bigs, unless Doc enjoys the other team getting three or four chances to make a basket. 

Unless DA can sign a big, or Wilcox is ready to play steady rotation minutes without getting injured again, Green has to play some PF minutes.  With KG playing his 30 minutes, that leaves 66 minutes for the other bigs. Even if Bass could play the 31 mpg he did last season, his career high, that would leave 35 big minutes.  Wilcox can play maybe half those those minutes until the next injury. 

KG 30 mpg
Bass 30 mpg (unfortunately)
Wilcox 16 mpg
Green as PF 20 mpg

Ainge needs to sign another big asap, or it's time to force feed Melo some minutes.

If we must lose, I will hope for blowouts. If we win, they better be blowouts. Melo cannot play real minutes.
Back to small ball seems like the only rational approach.
Jeff Green - Top 5 SF

[Kevin Garnett]
"I've always said J. Green is going to be one of the best players to ever play this game"

Online LooseCannon

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8131
  • Tommy Points: 606
Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2013, 10:51:32 PM »
Start Bass at the 4.  Close with Jeff Green at the 4 against most teams.  We can discuss which teams.
"The worst thing that ever happened in sports was sports radio, and the internet is sports radio on steroids with lower IQs.” -- Brian Burke, former Toronto Maple Leafs senior adviser, at the 2013 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference

Online Celtics18

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7558
  • Tommy Points: 784
Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2013, 11:10:20 PM »
Start Bass at the 4.  Close with Jeff Green at the 4 against most teams.  We can discuss which teams.

That's pretty much exactly my position on the matter.  Luckily, it seems to be Doc's position, as well.
Philadelphia Seventy-Sixers  DKC General Manager

Kendall Marshall/Dennis Schroeder/Marquis Teague/Ray McCallum
Evan Turner/Roger Mason Jr./Jason Richardson(injured)
Thaddeus Young/Victor Claver/Otto Porter
Spencer Hawes/Darrell Arthur/Erik Murphy
Timofey Mozgov/Lavoy Allen

Online BballTim

  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21170
  • Tommy Points: 945
Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2013, 11:10:48 PM »
So we have rebounding issues. Let's fix this by putting Jeff Green at PF... sure.
But do you think the rebounding/defense Bass gives you is a bigger bonus than the offense that Green gives you? 

How much better is Bass at rebounding/defense, if at all?    Green is clearly superior offensively.

  Rondo's a better rebounder than Green. For reference, Bass is pretty much halfway in between Green and KG. So figure out how much better a rebounder you think KG is than Bass, Bass is that much better than Green.

Offline crimson_stallion

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1293
  • Tommy Points: 177
Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2013, 11:47:17 PM »
So we have rebounding issues. Let's fix this by putting Jeff Green at PF... sure.

You may want to consider the fact that our scoring issues FAR exceed our rebounding issues, and the Jeff Green is a far more productive scorer than Brandon Bass.

He's also a far superior defensive player (at least the last month he has been).

Bass is averaging what - 8 PPG?  That's about the same as what he was averaging as a bench player when Sully was starting.  Green on the other hand does seem to get better the more he plays. 

Personally I think that at least trying it is a no brainer.  T-Will can backup Pierce at the backup SF spot and the combination of Terry, Crawford, T-Will, Bass and Wilcox gives us plenty of offensive production off the bench.

Offline crimson_stallion

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1293
  • Tommy Points: 177
Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2013, 11:59:37 PM »
Jeff Green is a small forward. Every bit of analysis of him at the power forward spot is awful. He played the four in OKC and was overmatched and misused. Let the poor guy play the three where he belongs. From John Hollinger:

Green was a train wreck as a face-up 4, shooting under 30 percent on 3s in consecutive seasons, getting torn apart by post players and rebounding like a wing.

As a wing, however, there's the hope that his size will become an advantage, and that he can take some smaller 3s on the block with his jump hook. Meanwhile, his defensive stats as a 3 in his few games as a Celtic in 2010-11 were vastly superior to his results as a 4 in Oklahoma City. The hope is he can provide another big wing to guard the likes of LeBron James in the playoffs, but it's not clear whom the Celtics thought they were bidding against with this deal.


Green has been very good at the three this year, so good that I was hoping they would have dealt Pierce and let Green start. So much for that.

The thing is, Green isn't playing like he did in OKC.  He's playing with more aggression over this last month or two, his shooting an outstanding percentage from the field (>50%) and from three (>40%) over that stretch.  His passing and rebounding numbers haven't really changed, but his defense has also taken a massive step up.  I've seen Jeff play a number of PF's on defense in the low post and lately he's done a very good job (better than Bass, IMO).  His defense on Lebron and Carmello was outstanding, and lets not forget both both of these guys are 6'8" - 6'9" and 240 - 260 lbs, both with (these days) solid low post games.

It's defaintely worth a shot, and if we get better as a result then stick to it - if we don't, ditch it.

Plus Green seems to play very well when he's out there with KG and AB.  In fact a lineup of AB/Lee/Pierce/Green/KG should be outstanding defensively.

This allows Terry to be the undisputed leader (both by play and by example) of the second unit, which might give that group more direction.

Offline aporel#18

  • Ray Allen
  • **
  • Posts: 2181
  • Tommy Points: 155
Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2013, 03:39:15 AM »
It's a shame the Bass for Mozgov+Randolph trade idea couldn't have any life. That would've forced Doc to start Jeff at the 4 alongside KG, and would've allowed him to have some length whenever KG is on the bench.

KG+JG is working out fine. BB+JG is terrible and to make it worse, we usually have Courtney Lee at the 3, so we play midget ball.

From now on, BB starts and Danny should find someone who can spell Garnett. KG+BB is not turrible, and if you can find someone who can protect the rim, our PF rotation of BB/Wilcox/Green isn't that bad.

Jeff Green has to close the games, though, I don't care if you play him at the 3 or at the 4, you need him on the court because he can score.

I expect Danny to pick up a veteran center from the waiver wire/China/unretirement, so I hope Melo can get some minutes in the next weeks. It'll hurt in the short term, but it could help on developing him.

Unless big surprise, we're headed to 7th-8th seed, so it won't hurt that much.

Offline krook

  • Rajon Rondo
  • Posts: 808
  • Tommy Points: 23
Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2013, 04:18:50 AM »
its funny that i keep posting here a thread which is more realistic than pierce for smith and people says bad trade, then danny failed for a trade, a big man
then we have no choice but to sign someone and everyone will say they sucked

well we have no choice
danny failed us
my trade suggestions are right
now up to danny
as for the names
those person has nba experienced
i can't think of any europe or asian centers who can fill our needs right now
again danny failed us ^_^
be thankful my trade suggestions that you always see here did not happen, now lets beat the heat

now its either fab melo or brandon bass will fail you

Offline mctyson

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1806
  • Tommy Points: 131
Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2013, 06:53:44 AM »
Jeff Green was our 4th best player before the Rondo injury... 3rd best player now.  And yet he's coming off the bench backing up Paul Pierce, because Paul Pierce is still our 2nd best player behind KG and Paul Pierce is our best offensive weapon.

Pierce in the last 11 games (where we have gone 8-3) has averaged 17 points, 9 rebounds and 7 assists.  He's shooting poorly, but he's still clearly the man for this team on offense.

Since Rondo got injured, Jeff Green has averaged 16 off the bench on extremely efficient shooting.  He's averaging a somewhat limited 30 minutes.  The guy is clearly talented.  He's been playing very effective defense, imo.

Two thoughts...

#1 -  I never liked Jeff Green at PF in Seattle.  He's a SF, but he was stuck playing with Durant... so they stuck him at PF.  He's not a great rebounder.  I don't like seeing him play anything other than SF.

#2 -  That said, Bass is crap and is probably best suited as a backup big.  Fwiw, Jeff Green (at 6'9 235) is actually bigger than Josh Smith (only 6'9 225).    Take a look at a team like Miami and they are actually playing Battier more minutes than Haslem... they have Bosh at Center... so basically LeBron is the default "PF" in that "small ball" approach.   I don't see how a starting lineup of PG - Bradly, SG - Lee, SF - Pierce, PF - Green, C - KG would be all that different.  What's the purpose of starting Bass?  he can't create his offense... he fits well with Rondo spotting up for open jumpers, but without him he's kind of dreadful. Is Bass a better defender??

So should we just start Jeff out of position at PF??  Do you think it would be beneficial?  Would it hurt us?  Why shouldn't Jeff be getting 37+ minutes a night?  Start him at PF next to Pierce.  When Pierce gets winded, switch Jeff to SF and bring in one of of the backup bigs.  I'd like to at least see it attempted.  He hasn't started a single game all year.

I still think the C's best lineup is PG - Pierce - Green - Bass - KG.  That's our biggest lineup and our best mismatch lineup.

Green is flexible enough that he doesn't even need a position. 

Offline clover

  • Front Page Moderator
  • Jim Loscutoff
  • ****
  • Posts: 4633
  • Tommy Points: 224
Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2013, 08:06:06 AM »
It's a shame the Bass for Mozgov+Randolph trade idea couldn't have any life. That would've forced Doc to start Jeff at the 4 alongside KG, and would've allowed him to have some length whenever KG is on the bench.

KG+JG is working out fine. BB+JG is terrible and to make it worse, we usually have Courtney Lee at the 3, so we play midget ball.

From now on, BB starts and Danny should find someone who can spell Garnett. KG+BB is not turrible, and if you can find someone who can protect the rim, our PF rotation of BB/Wilcox/Green isn't that bad.

Jeff Green has to close the games, though, I don't care if you play him at the 3 or at the 4, you need him on the court because he can score.

I expect Danny to pick up a veteran center from the waiver wire/China/unretirement, so I hope Melo can get some minutes in the next weeks. It'll hurt in the short term, but it could help on developing him.

Unless big surprise, we're headed to 7th-8th seed, so it won't hurt that much.

Green and Lee both have higher TS% than Pierce this year.  There's fair room to question who's taking how many shots, and getting better (current day) shooters to take more shots would make a real difference.  I was glad to hear that Doc had nudged both Lee and Bradley in that direction.

Offline CelticConcourse

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6175
  • Tommy Points: 382
  • Jeff Green
Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2013, 08:11:11 AM »
It's a shame the Bass for Mozgov+Randolph trade idea couldn't have any life. That would've forced Doc to start Jeff at the 4 alongside KG, and would've allowed him to have some length whenever KG is on the bench.

KG+JG is working out fine. BB+JG is terrible and to make it worse, we usually have Courtney Lee at the 3, so we play midget ball.

From now on, BB starts and Danny should find someone who can spell Garnett. KG+BB is not turrible, and if you can find someone who can protect the rim, our PF rotation of BB/Wilcox/Green isn't that bad.

Jeff Green has to close the games, though, I don't care if you play him at the 3 or at the 4, you need him on the court because he can score.

I expect Danny to pick up a veteran center from the waiver wire/China/unretirement, so I hope Melo can get some minutes in the next weeks. It'll hurt in the short term, but it could help on developing him.

Unless big surprise, we're headed to 7th-8th seed, so it won't hurt that much.

Green and Lee both have higher TS% than Pierce this year.  There's fair room to question who's taking how many shots, and getting better (current day) shooters to take more shots would make a real difference.  I was glad to hear that Doc had nudged both Lee and Bradley in that direction.

Bradley and offense only come together through luck. Inconsistent and shoots too much. Go Craw!
Jeff Green - Top 5 SF

[Kevin Garnett]
"I've always said J. Green is going to be one of the best players to ever play this game"

Offline clover

  • Front Page Moderator
  • Jim Loscutoff
  • ****
  • Posts: 4633
  • Tommy Points: 224
Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2013, 08:25:19 AM »
So we have rebounding issues. Let's fix this by putting Jeff Green at PF... sure.
But do you think the rebounding/defense Bass gives you is a bigger bonus than the offense that Green gives you? 

How much better is Bass at rebounding/defense, if at all?    Green is clearly superior offensively.

  Rondo's a better rebounder than Green. For reference, Bass is pretty much halfway in between Green and KG. So figure out how much better a rebounder you think KG is than Bass, Bass is that much better than Green.

But wouldn't that be counting Green's rebounding rate at the 3 position as well?  Not quite equal to Bass always in there at the 4.  But Green's attitude re: rebounding bothers me.  He seemed to take the C's giving him a bonus clause for rebounding more as an insult--rather than a clear expression from his employer as to something they'd like him to improve on.

 

Hello! Guest

Welcome to the CelticsBlog Forums.

Welcome to CelticsBlog