Author Topic: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go  (Read 8292 times)

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Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #45 on: January 27, 2013, 07:47:13 PM »

Offline ausbacker

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So you are saying without Rondo they still have enough talent to win? Win what? Win the 8th seed in the playoffs? They have 4 journeyman guards, two aging, former superstars, a power forward who can't get out of his own way, a small forward who had a great game today, but who has underachieved his entire career, as PF/center who is always injured, and a rookie PF who has tremendous potential. A decent team, but nothing to write home about.

The big problem here is that everybody on this board grossly overvalues Rondo.

Everybody looks at Rondo's individual numbers as a reason why he is irreplacable - pointing to all of his assists and his triple doubles as reasons why we have no hope without him. 

The thing is Rondo just had two triple doubles in a row, and we lost both games.

When Rondo has huge games this season, it hasn't necessarilly resulted in us getting wins. We get wins when our other guys play well.  We get wins when we play hardcore, suffocating defense (like we did tonight) for an entire game.  We get wins when everybody on our team contributes offensively.

No I'm not saying we're better off without Rondo, but I don't necessarilly believe we are much (if any) worse without him either.

We beat Miami today in double OT without Rondo.  Let's be honest - do you believe this would have been a blowout if we had him?  I don't.  I believe the game would have been just as hard fought regardless, and we still would have struggled to win.

I believe that the defensive pressure of Bradley + Lee against Wade today was huge, and at least as valuable to us as any of Rondo's assists.

I believe that Jeff Green's defense on Lebron was the difference between him scoring 34 points and him scoring 45 points (in the 52 minutes he played).

I believe it was Green who took a huge charge on Wade near the end of the game, a play that could have been the difference in the game.

I believe it was a combination of KG and Pierce who hit the two key baskets down the stretch which essentially won us this game.

I believe it was Terry who calmly hit all of those clutch free throws to keep the stop Miami from building a lead.

I believe it was Barbosa who came out and put on a nice scoring run when it looked like Miami were about to run away with the game.

What I'm saying is Basketball is a team game.  Last season we went deep in the playoffs, and while KG and Rondo had a lot of huge games to take us there, just as many of those games were won with the defense and effort of Bradley, Dooling, Pietrus and Marquis. 

How many games did the Lakers win in the past off big clutch shots from role players like Robert Horry and Derek Fisher?  Guys who on paper were practically end of bench guys, but they hit the big shots when it counted.

In 2008, how many of those games were won due to big plays by guys like Posey, House, Powe and PJ Brown?  You know, back in the days before Rondo was the Rondo we know today.

When teams win games everybody gives credit to the stars, but so often it's the role players who do the little things (set good screens, rebound, play tough D, etc) who impact the game just as much.

All of these 'journeyman' comments add up to nothing, because the value of this team is not in each indivuduals superstar talent, it's in the talent of this unit as a whole.  The way eveybody plays together as a team.

Did the Piston's have more talent when they won their most recent championship than we do right now?  Was Wallace at his peak any better than KG now?  Was Hamilton any better then Pierce is now?  Was Billups impact the game any more on offense than Bradley and Lee do right now on defense?  Was Prince any more talented than Jeff Green when he plays as he did today?

The potential is there, that's all I'm saying.  We can still be competitive as we are, but if DA could pull of a trade that brings in a strong scorer (Reddick, Nayo, etc) then that could transform us into a pretty deadly team.

I think this is a great post.  I think the initial shock of losing Rondo for the season pushes everyone into blow it up mode.  I don't think DA will just throw a fire sale.  Did anyone see the game today?  We played well.  Maybe the best def. game of the year?

Blowing it up just doesn't make sense.  KG / PP are here for the rest of the year.  They might both hang it up after this year, just hard to tell.  I say lets get over the shock of losing Rajon, and see how the guys respond.
It doesn't have to be a fire sale to start systematically building the new Celtics. Even the most optimistic C's fan has to realize it's highly unlikely that this team is going to be hanging any banners in the Garden.

Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #46 on: January 27, 2013, 07:53:33 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Another factor to consider.

Most people here insist that it's ludicrous to suggest that we could get better by losing one of our three best players (and yes I said "one of" our best players - I still believe that KG and Pierce are more critical to this team's efforts than Rondo).

Think about this though - what happens to the Knicks when Amare sits out?  Before Carmello joined the Knicks Amare was averaging about 26 points, 9 rebounds and 2 blocks for that team while also having one of the top FG% in the league.  His ability to produce on a box score is undeniable, yet when he is on the court with Melo the Knicks are a significantly worse team.

This does not by any means suggest Amare is a below average player - the guy is still one of the best PF's in the league when he's healthy.  It just means that his skill set, as good as it is, doesn't mesh will with the lineups he tends to find himself in. He doesn't complement the other guys on the team.

Ironically, if you bring him to Boston (assuming he was healthy) I think he'd be a huge boost to us because we could actually use an elite scorer who needs the ball in his hands to be effective.  It allow us to take pressure of Pierce and KG, while KG would help to cover for Amare's defensive deficiencies and the two of them are both good rebounding bigs.  In fact a front line of KG/Amare/Piece would be pretty [dang] dominant.

The point I'm making here is that an individuals greatness (and Rondo IS a great player) doesn't necessarilly lead to team greatness.  On a team like the Knicks that is full of shooters/scorers, Rondo would probably be a perfect fit.  He wouldn't be needed so much to score, and his limited range would be less of a factor because he has so many other shooters around him.  He could run the offense all day long and log up assists like they were going out of fasion, and he would be benefiting the team in the process.

For us because our team is so offensively deficient, we really need another big time scoring threat.  Rondo is really not a scorer, and I think that hurts us a little when he's out there.  I don't think it was as big an issue in previous years because we always had the trio of Ray, Pierce and KG who could all be depended on to put up 15 to 20 points every night, so Rondo could just sit back and orchestrate things.

This season I just don't think we have had that luxury.

Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #47 on: January 27, 2013, 07:54:12 PM »

Offline danglertx

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Send Pierce to the mavs for Mayo and Kaveman

And what would that do for us exactly?  There is the small chance we end up with nobody and save $4mil on the cap.  We are still over the cap though and that is just wasted money.  I guess if your goal is to save the owners some cash you should call about the GM job.

Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #48 on: January 27, 2013, 07:54:23 PM »

Offline CelticConcourse

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Another factor to consider.

Most people here insist that it's ludicrous to suggest that we could get better by losing one of our three best players (and yes I said "one of" our best players - I still believe that KG and Pierce are more critical to this team's efforts than Rondo).

Think about this though - what happens to the Knicks when Amare sits out?  Before Carmello joined the Knicks Amare was averaging about 26 points, 9 rebounds and 2 blocks for that team while also having one of the top FG% in the league.  His ability to produce on a box score is undeniable, yet when he is on the court with Melo the Knicks are a significantly worse team.

This does not by any means suggest Amare is a below average player - the guy is still one of the best PF's in the league when he's healthy.  It just means that his skill set, as good as it is, doesn't mesh will with the lineups he tends to find himself in. He doesn't complement the other guys on the team.

Ironically, if you bring him to Boston (assuming he was healthy) I think he'd be a huge boost to us because we could actually use an elite scorer who needs the ball in his hands to be effective.  It allow us to take pressure of Pierce and KG, while KG would help to cover for Amare's defensive deficiencies and the two of them are both good rebounding bigs.  In fact a front line of KG/Amare/Piece would be pretty [dang] dominant.

The point I'm making here is that an individuals greatness (and Rondo IS a great player) doesn't necessarilly lead to team greatness.  On a team like the Knicks that is full of shooters/scorers, Rondo would probably be a perfect fit.  He wouldn't be needed so much to score, and his limited range would be less of a factor because he has so many other shooters around him.  He could run the offense all day long and log up assists like they were going out of fasion, and he would be benefiting the team in the process.

For us because our team is so offensively deficient, we really need another big time scoring threat.  Rondo is really not a scorer, and I think that hurts us a little when he's out there.  I don't think it was as big an issue in previous years because we always had the trio of Ray, Pierce and KG who could all be depended on to put up 15 to 20 points every night, so Rondo could just sit back and orchestrate things.

This season I just don't think we have had that luxury.

We CAN win without Rondo.
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Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #49 on: January 27, 2013, 08:00:41 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Even the most optimistic C's fan has to realize it's highly unlikely that this team is going to be hanging any banners in the Garden.

I agree it's highly unlikely, but it's not impossible.

At the same time, our chance of competing this season is zero if we blow trade out KG and Pierce, and probably will be zero for the next 5 years.

As we are now we still have a fighting chance.  We still have the talent to make the playoffs, and the East is pretty weak - we are very capable of grinding past most of the teams (Indiana, Milwalkee, Atlanta, Brooklyn, Chicago) in a 7 game series just as we did past Philly and Atlanta last year.

Today proved we are CAPABLE of beating Miami if we face them without Rondo.  Remember that we won today with our defense and effort - our offense was actually pretty unspectacular, and we didn't really play outstanding basketball...we just won with pure effort and will.  Same as last season's approach, and last season that almost took us to the finals.

What if we lost to Atlanta - could they have beaten Philly and Miami?  Who knows.  If we lost to Philly, maybe they would have grinded out a win against Miami and made the finals.  Neither of those teams were considered contenders, but in the playoffs any team can win if they just give it all they have. 

Miami struggled past Indiana and Past us, then they pretty convincingly beat the Thunder..so no telling what we could do if we get past Miami and/or NY in the East.   

Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #50 on: January 27, 2013, 08:08:08 PM »

Online rondohondo

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Even the most optimistic C's fan has to realize it's highly unlikely that this team is going to be hanging any banners in the Garden.

I agree it's highly unlikely, but it's not impossible.

At the same time, our chance of competing this season is zero if we blow trade out KG and Pierce, and probably will be zero for the next 5 years.

As we are now we still have a fighting chance.  We still have the talent to make the playoffs, and the East is pretty weak - we are very capable of grinding past most of the teams (Indiana, Milwalkee, Atlanta, Brooklyn, Chicago) in a 7 game series just as we did past Philly and Atlanta last year.

Today proved we are CAPABLE of beating Miami if we face them without Rondo.  Remember that we won today with our defense and effort - our offense was actually pretty unspectacular, and we didn't really play outstanding basketball...we just won with pure effort and will.  Same as last season's approach, and last season that almost took us to the finals.

What if we lost to Atlanta - could they have beaten Philly and Miami?  Who knows.  If we lost to Philly, maybe they would have grinded out a win against Miami and made the finals.  Neither of those teams were considered contenders, but in the playoffs any team can win if they just give it all they have. 

Miami struggled past Indiana and Past us, then they pretty convincingly beat the Thunder..so no telling what we could do if we get past Miami and/or NY in the East.   

Miami struggled against Indiana and Boston last year because they were without their 3rd best player(bosh) and relying heavily on two top 10 players in their prime.

The c's have now lost their best or second best player and now will be relying on 35 and 36 year old guys who have a hard time of playing more than 30 mins a night.

And you expect us to compete cause"it's not impossible" ?

Right....

Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #51 on: January 27, 2013, 08:13:45 PM »

Online Neurotic Guy

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Makes sense. As far as blowing things up, there is nothing to blow up. 8th seed with Rondo and maybe they can hold on to the 8th seed without him. The rebuilding starts now or in the offseason, but there is nothing left to blow up.

But you know what is meant by the term 'blow-up' as it pertains to this team.  Even though you decided long ago that this team is not championship caliber, there are many who believed that this team could be dangerous again in the playoffs.  True or not true doesn't really matter.  Bottom line is that a blow-up means changing the face(s) of this franchise by trading PP and/or KG. 


Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #52 on: January 27, 2013, 08:14:58 PM »

Offline Boston Garden Leprechaun

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Send kg to the thunder and pierce to the clippers.

for Durant and Griffin?  ;D

Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #53 on: January 27, 2013, 08:23:35 PM »

Offline BballTim

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The point I'm making here is that an individuals greatness (and Rondo IS a great player) doesn't necessarilly lead to team greatness.  On a team like the Knicks that is full of shooters/scorers, Rondo would probably be a perfect fit.  He wouldn't be needed so much to score, and his limited range would be less of a factor because he has so many other shooters around him.  He could run the offense all day long and log up assists like they were going out of fasion, and he would be benefiting the team in the process.


  For the record Rondo runs our offense all day long and logs assists like they're going out of style and that does benefit the team. It's true that many people seem to enjoy watching the offense more when Rondo's controlling the ball less, it's equally true that our offense is usually worse during those times.

Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #54 on: January 27, 2013, 08:33:18 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Did the Piston's have more talent when they won their most recent championship than we do right now?  Was Wallace at his peak any better than KG now?  Was Hamilton any better then Pierce is now?  Was Billups impact the game any more on offense than Bradley and Lee do right now on defense?  Was Prince any more talented than Jeff Green when he plays as he did today?


  Did you actually watch that Pistons team play?

Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #55 on: January 27, 2013, 08:44:00 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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I think there is relatively zero chance Rondo is moved now. Pierce, Green, anyone aside from Garnett, Bradley, and Sullinger...well maybe that's a different story.

Honestly, Im skeptical that we do a major move, even now. It would require Garnett asking for a trade, or Pierce getting expirings and a prospect/pick in return. Garnett and Pierce dont strike me as guys that bail on a sinking ship just because its sinking. Not at their age anyways.

Now that said,!I hope Ainge trades for Lowry.

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Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #56 on: January 27, 2013, 08:45:03 PM »

Offline CelticConcourse

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Did the Piston's have more talent when they won their most recent championship than we do right now?  Was Wallace at his peak any better than KG now?  Was Hamilton any better then Pierce is now?  Was Billups impact the game any more on offense than Bradley and Lee do right now on defense?  Was Prince any more talented than Jeff Green when he plays as he did today?


  Did you actually watch that Pistons team play?

Highly doubtful.

I think there is relatively zero chance Rondo is moved now. Pierce, Green, anyone aside from Garnett, Bradley, and Sullinger...well maybe that's a different story.

Honestly, Im skeptical that we do a major move, even now. It would require Garnett asking for a trade, or Pierce getting expirings and a prospect/pick in return. Garnett and Pierce dont strike me as guys that bail on a sinking ship just because its sinking. Not at their age anyways.

Now that said,!I hope Ainge trades for Lowry.

No way Rondo gets moved now.
Jeff Green - Top 5 SF

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Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #57 on: January 27, 2013, 09:00:39 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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I'm kind of relieved, to be honest.

Not saying I wanted this to happen, not at all.

But in a way I was dreading the rest of this season. I was afraid Danny would trade one or two of our few valuable assets (Sully, Bradley, picks, or some combination) for another aging vet on a bad contract, for the mythical "last run."

Then, we'd end up getting no farther than the conference finals - again - and have traded away our future for just another beatdown at the hands of the Heat.

Now we can hang on to everyone, have modest expectations for the rest of this year, and get on to the business of rebuilding.

Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #58 on: January 27, 2013, 09:49:22 PM »

Offline celticsleyte

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I kind of like to keep PP and KG to mentor the incoming players.  But maybe one or the other can do the job.  If a good enough offer comes in you need to consider it.  I would certainly consult the captain that he would be ok with the trade and KG has a no trade clause so obviously he has to in agreement before we can move him.

PP might turn the clippers into true contenders and its his hometown so just maybe they are a fit?

I am also fine with keeping both guys. I would love to unload Bass.

Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #59 on: January 27, 2013, 09:53:15 PM »

Online triboy16f

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Lets put it this way. If this team without Rondo, plays better than 500, which i'm confident we will, there is no reason for Ainge to do anything.

If we keep like the way we did before tonights win, with rondo or not, we needed to make some moves.

Nothing will happen also until trade deadline day. I hope we play good and nothing happens
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