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Does the shortened preseason matter?

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Author Topic: The Age of Miniscule Training Camps and Preseasons  (Read 1942 times)

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The Age of Miniscule Training Camps and Preseasons
« on: September 19, 2018, 11:05:47 PM »

Offline Redz

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It’s crazy to me how few practices there are for training camp now.  I can live with less preseason games, but the teams need a little to time train still, don’t they?  Training camp used to be a big deal.  Now it seems like the first quarter of the season is still a lot more of teams trying to figure things out on the fly.  It worked well for a fairly discliplined Celtics team last year. 

I don’t necessarily mind it now because the Celtics are going to be good, but on the whole it seems like the quality of basketball in the league suffers for it. 

That said, I do like getting the season rolling earlier. 

I
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Re: The Age of Miniscule Training Camps and Preseasons
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2018, 11:26:24 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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It’s crazy to me how few practices there are for training camp now.  I can live with less preseason games, but the teams need a little to time train still, don’t they?  Training camp used to be a big deal.  Now it seems like the first quarter of the season is still a lot more of teams trying to figure things out on the fly.  It worked well for a fairly discliplined Celtics team last year. 

I don’t necessarily mind it now because the Celtics are going to be good, but on the whole it seems like the quality of basketball in the league suffers for it. 

That said, I do like getting the season rolling earlier. 

I



 Yeah, and I think the first 4 games of the NFL season are basically preseason game that count.

Re: The Age of Miniscule Training Camps and Preseasons
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2018, 12:16:45 AM »

Offline Redz

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It’s crazy to me how few practices there are for training camp now.  I can live with less preseason games, but the teams need a little to time train still, don’t they?  Training camp used to be a big deal.  Now it seems like the first quarter of the season is still a lot more of teams trying to figure things out on the fly.  It worked well for a fairly discliplined Celtics team last year. 

I don’t necessarily mind it now because the Celtics are going to be good, but on the whole it seems like the quality of basketball in the league suffers for it. 

That said, I do like getting the season rolling earlier. 

I



 Yeah, and I think the first 4 games of the NFL season are basically preseason game that count.

Definitely seems that way.  Though proportionately the NFL preseason and camp are still much longer, they have cut back significantly on camp length and intensity, and the preseason games are largely devoid of starters or playbook hints.
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Re: The Age of Miniscule Training Camps and Preseasons
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2018, 12:44:26 AM »

Offline bdm860

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It's a different league now.

Maybe it's an oversimplified stereotype, but it used to be that the vets would use training camp to get in shape for the season.  Now they come into camp in shape.  Really, when's the last time you heard about anybody but a fringe NBA player (what's up Sullinger) coming into camp out of shape?  20+ years ago you used to hear about it all the time.  And I have to imagine it was even worse 30-40 years ago.

From the New York Times, "PRO BASKETBALL; Some Scales Tipping Over As N.B.A. Season Tips Off"

Quote
It is that last pleasure Shawn Kemp, Bryant Reeves and several other players took to the extreme. They not only lived large during the six-month lockout, they also showed up large to training camp.

...

Reeves ate so much over the break, he lost his starting job with the Vancouver Grizzlies to the journeyman forward Tony Massenburg. Arriving 40 pounds heavier than last season, Reeves has shed about 15 pounds in two weeks. But he still needs to drop 25 pounds to return to his playing weight. Currently, Reeves tips the scales at about 315.

...

Kemp, who says he was only a few pounds overweight, showed up in Cleveland with a waistline that resembled his nearly 40-inch vertical leap.

...

Kemp and Reeves were not alone. If it was not Dennis Scott and Patrick Ewing in New York, it was Scott Burrell in New Jersey or Oliver Miller in Toronto saying he needed to drop 10 to 15 pounds.



Now seemingly everybody has their own personal trainer, and is working out all summer. Here's an NBA.com article just last year alluding to this, with quotes from a lot of coaches:

David Fizdale:
Quote
We know guys are going to pay people to work ‘em out in the offseason. For whatever reason, it’s a badge of honor to get your own personal workout guy.

Scot Brooks:
Quote
“Being a former player, I kind of know all the tricks. One of the tricks is: 'I lifted a lot of weight this summer and bulked up.' That’s a trick. You didn’t 'bulk up,' you just gained weight. And your body fat percentage is higher. When a player starts the conversation with that, you know he’s not in shape.

...

The guys we’ve had come in the last couple weeks, I see no problem with their conditioning. ... People who always say 'The old school was better,' taking all of October to get into shape, that’s one place the old school wasn’t better. ... Guys are in shape. It’s big business."

Steve Clifford:
Quote
I had Bob Weiss [an NBA guard from 1966-1977] working for me the last four years. He said that back then, usually the veteran players used camp more to get into shape and the younger guys were the ones who were in better shape. Now the older guys come to camp in better shape than the younger – or really, the rookies. It’s the guys coming out of college who don’t maybe understand the rigors of the season.

Dwane Casey:
Quote
A lot of them have their own guys – C.J. Miles has his own guy in San Antonio – and that’s the biggest difference, I think, from the NBA of yesteryear. We have a lot more specific coaches now – strength coaches, conditioning coaches – and the stakes are higher.”

Billy Donovan:
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These guys are so educated on training, on nutrition, on strength coaches. They understand the most important commodity they have is their bodies. The more they can take care of their bodies, the longer their careers are going to be.

Terry Stotts:
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The facilities that they have now and what’s at stake, NBA players do an excellent job of staying in shape over the summer.

Rick Carlisle:
Quote
But it’s so competitive now – between players, to make the All-Star team, to make all-NBA, to win games – everybody’s doin’ their work early.

Alvin Gentry:
Quote
You know, what’s become really big business in the offseason are the preventative things, where you’re doing stuff that prevent injuries. There are guys who have master’s degrees in kinesiology and anatomy, and they know the human body as well as anyone. And what you’re finding is, a lot more athletes are not having the little petty injuries. A pulled groin here or there. If you go back and check the league [data], those types of injuries are really down. A lot of it has to do with the trainers who are working in the summer with the guys.”

So you probably needed a longer training camp in the past just to get guys in shape.  Now they're already in shape.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 09:05:28 AM by bdm860 »

After 18 months with their Bigs, the Littles were: 46% less likely to use illegal drugs, 27% less likely to use alcohol, 52% less likely to skip school, 37% less likely to skip a class

Re: The Age of Miniscule Training Camps and Preseasons
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2018, 01:43:13 AM »

Offline bdm860

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Also, I think training camp was such a drag back in the day and players had a stronger aversion to getting back in shape, I recall hearing that vets would purposely wait until the last minute to sign with a team just so they could miss training camp.

Looking through old transactions on basketball-reference.com, you see a lot of rotation level vets signing in mid-to-late October or even early November.

Sherman Douglas signed with the Nets on 10/31/97

Malik Sealy signed with the Pistons on 10/25/97

Terry Cummings signed with the Bucks on 11/2/95

Tracy Murray signed with the Raptors on 11/1/95

Terry Porter signed with the Wolves on 10/14/95

Jerome Kersey signed with the Warriors on 10/18/95

Antoine Carr signed with the Jazz on 10/29/94

Avery Johnson signed with the Warriors on 10/25/93

These are all rotation guys playing 20+mpg, we're not talking fringe guys hoping to fill the final roster spot or aging vets with one foot in the grave. 

And that's just guys who switched teams.  It doesn't count all the guys who re-signed but purposely dragged out contract negotiations to miss camp. 


In this day and age, could you picture quality players like J.J. Redick, Aron Baynes, Rajon Rondo, or Trevor Ariza still being unsigned at this point in the off season?  It used to happen in the past because guys would wait to sign just to miss camp.  If you know you're going to sign with a team, why sign in July/Aug/Sep when you can just sign in Oct/Nov?  Same money, less work.


The players' off season conditioning and the training camps necessary to get them back in shape were just a completely different animal in the past.  I think the league is in a much better place now.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 09:06:43 AM by bdm860 »

After 18 months with their Bigs, the Littles were: 46% less likely to use illegal drugs, 27% less likely to use alcohol, 52% less likely to skip school, 37% less likely to skip a class

Re: The Age of Miniscule Training Camps and Preseasons
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2018, 07:22:18 AM »

Offline Redz

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Makes me all the more curious how Tatum is going to look entering year two after busting his butt all off season.
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Re: The Age of Miniscule Training Camps and Preseasons
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2018, 09:31:20 AM »

Offline Big333223

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It's a different league now.

Maybe it's an oversimplified stereotype, but it used to be that the vets would use training camp to get in shape for the season. 

This is what I was going to say. Players have basketball courts, full gyms, and personal chefs in their homes now and there's just too much money on the table to not show up in shape.
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Re: The Age of Miniscule Training Camps and Preseasons
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2018, 09:47:07 AM »

Offline gift

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It's a different league now.

Maybe it's an oversimplified stereotype, but it used to be that the vets would use training camp to get in shape for the season. 

This is what I was going to say. Players have basketball courts, full gyms, and personal chefs in their homes now and there's just too much money on the table to not show up in shape.

Yeah, that's a good observation. I had actually forgotten how common it was to think of training camp as the time players expected to get into shape. A player coming into training camp expecting to get into shape would be far behind everyone else and would probably be criticized by everyone.

The Celtics schedule between opening of training camp and the first preseason game still seem a bit too condensed to me. But at least there is more continuity with this team than there has been for most of Brad Stevens' teams going into the season.

Re: The Age of Miniscule Training Camps and Preseasons
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2018, 12:22:57 PM »

Offline JBcat

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I reallly like the season starting earlier as there should be better quality of games with less back to back games, and no 4 games in 5 nights.  The only thing for me that would make things even better is if games were always on the same days each week, for example Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays, or something like that so I wouldn’t have to constantly look at the schedule. Lol

Re: The Age of Miniscule Training Camps and Preseasons
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2018, 03:28:01 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I reallly like the season starting earlier as there should be better quality of games with less back to back games, and no 4 games in 5 nights.  The only thing for me that would make things even better is if games were always on the same days each week, for example Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays, or something like that so I wouldn’t have to constantly look at the schedule. Lol
Many of the teams in the league play in the same venue as an NHL team. Having games on the same days just isn't practible because of this. Besides, Saturday is a horrible day to have games as it's the day with probably the lowest amount of television viewers. Ratings baby!!!

Re: The Age of Miniscule Training Camps and Preseasons
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2018, 03:34:28 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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I reallly like the season starting earlier as there should be better quality of games with less back to back games, and no 4 games in 5 nights.  The only thing for me that would make things even better is if games were always on the same days each week, for example Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays, or something like that so I wouldn’t have to constantly look at the schedule. Lol

Getting more rest days while keeping the traditional 82 was like the #1 reason the season starts about 2 weeks earlier now. I remember Adam Silver talking about it early in his tenure. It's a good idea, all things considered, though dropping to 70 or so would probably be a lot better.

I don't think there's an easy way to keep so many games on the same days, but you'll notice the league kinda sorta does put a rhythm into the schedule - not many Tuesday/Thursday games for example, and most that do happen are TV showcase games.