Author Topic: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"  (Read 5453 times)

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Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #75 on: August 17, 2018, 09:25:15 AM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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The exaggeration on this forum is a bit too much. Neither Towns nor Irving are "abominations" defensively. That's narrative based, not stats or eye-test based.

Towns' weakness is probably exploited more because he's a big man. In one sense, that makes him a "worse" defender. What I like about Irving is that, when it matters, he definitely knows how to pick his spots defensively. He made Curry work in the finals when he played for Cleveland, including a key block late in one game. And remember the Rockets game last year? That game started to turn on multiple defensive plays that Irving made. Towns hasn't proven yet that he can rise to that level. In fact, he was outplayed on both ends of the court by Capella in the playoffs.

Neither are high level defenders, but neither are terrible. They aren't Jamal Crawford, or Isaiah Thomas, or Deangelo Russell, or Nick Young, or CJ McCullom, or Greg Monroe, or Ryan Anderson, or Frank Kaminsky, or Jabari Parker.

I still don't think, given Irving's track record of high level basketball against the best players in the most critical situations, that you could say Towns is better (although he might prove to be). I still think Irving has another level to go to as a basketball player.

Towns' upward trajectory was plateaued the last few seasons. His efficiency has risen, but he defense has stayed relatively the same, he hasn't improved as a playmaker for others, and he hasn't improved his intangibles. He still could get better, and it's reasonable to think he will, but it's also possible that he never gets better. It's also possible this is who is he is. IF (big if) this is who he is, I think one could argue that Brown is a better asset than Towns.

That's the reason I suggested you could argue the Wolves get the best two players in the trade Moranis proposed earlier.

Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #76 on: August 17, 2018, 10:50:13 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I love Kyrie but there is risk that he will leave and there is also injury risk for his knee that just had screws taken out of it.  Only for these reasons would I consider a trade based around Kyrie and Towns.  Not sure a good trade could be constructed but I would be OK with going down that path.

I have no interest in Teague and less than no interest if getting Teague involved trading Brown.  I see Brown as one of the most promising young players in the league.  I see Teague as an aging veteran who was never better than average anyway.  Not sure Teague is better than Rozier and certainly not for the money ($19M).

Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #77 on: August 17, 2018, 11:00:33 AM »

Offline Boston Garden Leprechaun

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PURE HOGWASH
LET'S GO CELTICS!

Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #78 on: August 17, 2018, 02:16:32 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.

Oh wow. The hottest of takes right there.
Jeff Teague is a 30 year old former all star still very much in the prime of his career.  Over the last 6 seasons he has averaged basically 15 ppg and 7 apg (with over 2.5 rpg). 

Brown is definitely trending upward and at some point, maybe even this year, will almost certainly pass Teague up (if he hasn't already), but this board has a nasty habit of pretending young players have already become the players we all hope they will become.

This is a pretty hilarious way to phrase it man. Should we try to pry former all-star Deng from the Lakers. Heck former all-star Roy Hibbert is only 1 year older than Teague. Funny phrasing aside, Teague is not a quality starting point guard at this point. I really don't think you can win a championship with him starting at point guard, and you obviously can with Irving because it has happened.

 While KAT has potential you are definitely overselling his defense. He has been bad throughout his career and I believe Butler has even frustrated by his work ethic. I don't know why we would give up our championship opportunity this year when it is not clear if a team of Tatum, Towns, Horford, Hayward and Teague would ever even be able to compete for one.
come on you didn't even bold the full sentence. Talk about taking things out of context and running with nonsense.  Par for the course unfortunately.

Towns had the best DRTG on the Wolves and they were 13.4 points per 100 possessions worse with him on the bench. Those are the actual numbers.  They are also a lot better than Irving who is a downright awful defender which was the point I was making. Towns is a better defender than Irving and he was also a better offensive player.  That means Towns is better than Irving.

Own what you write you why you write the words you do. On a forum it is all we have. You put the phrase in "former all-star" to build the case of how good a player Teague is. I pointed out that this is a silly thing to do because it was in the 2014-2015 season (and a selection based on team success). You go back one year earlier and you have Noah, Hibbert, Joe Johnson and Tony Parker in the game and I doubt you would be saying "former all-star" when discussing picking up those guys.

Teague is a bottom 10 starting point guard at best, and probably be a worse option for starting than rozier. You can window dress his stats or all-star appearance from 3 years ago, but he is not a very good player. 
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 02:29:18 PM by nickagneta »

Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #79 on: August 17, 2018, 03:01:18 PM »

Offline tankcity!

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First I want to say, I told everyone about Jaylen Brown. Nailed that pick. Going to pat myself on the shoulder for that one. Also told everyone about Rozier, including JPotter, AKA J potty mouth.

As for Moranis, he's using stats to make a lame argument about Kats defense....I mean he clearly doesn't watch the playoffs when Capela destroyed him that series. Kat needs to lose weight to become good at defense. He's got some fat on him. This is what you call scouting. If everyone just made assumptions based on metrics and numbers, then there wouldn't be GM's like Danny Ainge ripping people off on trades like he did with Jordan Crawford who had good stats in Stevens systems.

Stats are overrated nowadays. They were underrated in the 90s and early 2000s. Now people just ignore scouting. This is why a guy like Moranis is so off on Philly's roster, or how off he was on Jaylen Brown.

You guys should look up what Moranis used to say about Noel and Okafor. He used to use stats as well. This is why I no longer post on this forum anymore. I'm tired of being right. It's like talking to a child.

Anyways have a great weekend. Go Celtics. After the Nets trade, most of us on this forum knew the Celtics would be fine. Be glad to be where we are and continue to ignore the trolls!

Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #80 on: August 17, 2018, 03:03:54 PM »

Offline tankcity!

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Gauging interest, what about a trade to the Wolves. 

Irving and Brown and for Teague and Towns.  That I think would be an interesting trade for both teams.  Boston gets a decent replacement for Irving in Teague and gets the big man the team is missing in Towns.  The Wolves then get to build around Irving and Butler, with Brown as a potential 3rd, which also allows them to move on from Wiggins.  Obviously the Wolves only do that if they have some sort of assurance from both Irving and Butler, but I do think that would be an interesting trade for both teams.

You could argue Minny gets the best two players in that trade.
No you couldn't.  Towns is clearly better than Brown and it isn't close.  I think you could reasonably argue Towns is better than Irving.  Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.

On the same reasoning you might use for Towns over Brown, I think you should use for Irving over Towns. Towns no-showed in the playoffs, whereas Irving hit one of the biggest shots in finals history. Irving is the more proven player.

I don't necessarily think Brown is better than Towns (edit: wrong order), but I do think you could argue that high level two-way wings are more valuable than offensive-minded, defensive sivs big men.

On top of that, if you compare their last post-seasons, you could argue Brown was better. Brown's per 36 numbers were 20, 5, and 2 on 47/39/64 % shooting clips. Towns averaged 16, 14 and 2 on 47/27/74 shooting clips. The Wolves offrating was 106 and defrating was 112 with Towns on the floor. The Celtics offrating was 108 and defrathingwas 108 with Brown on the floor.

Lol! I love how Moranis just glosses over this part. So hilarious. Towns may be better, but he's one of the most overrated players in the league. He was better a rookie imo when he was more mobile. He has lost speed. Needs to lose the fat

Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #81 on: August 17, 2018, 03:29:00 PM »

Offline kraidstar

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An NBA insider on the radio was saying Towns "doesn't have a great work ethic defensively and is more about stats," and "is not the high character guy that people think."

The former is not hard to believe, watching him play.

Most overrated player in the league. He will NEVER be the centerpiece of a title team.

Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #82 on: August 17, 2018, 04:09:47 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Funny how the tide has turned on Towns on here.  He walked on water a year ago.  When I said I'd take Embiid over Towns, I was told that was crazy talk. 

Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #83 on: August 17, 2018, 04:13:33 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Funny how the tide has turned on Towns on here.  He walked on water a year ago.  When I said I'd take Embiid over Towns, I was told that was crazy talk.

You know that context matters right? Many people have said that if healthy Embiid is a more complete player than cause embiid plays defense (which funny enough is still what he is getting slammed for here). The issue was his health and durability. Has he answered that question after a season with no leg or back issues, maybe, but that was the whole point of the debate. I also don't believe you really forgot that either, so this is a pretty weak and hollow self-congratulatory post you made.

Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #84 on: August 17, 2018, 04:20:25 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.

Oh wow. The hottest of takes right there.
Jeff Teague is a 30 year old former all star still very much in the prime of his career.  Over the last 6 seasons he has averaged basically 15 ppg and 7 apg (with over 2.5 rpg). 

Brown is definitely trending upward and at some point, maybe even this year, will almost certainly pass Teague up (if he hasn't already), but this board has a nasty habit of pretending young players have already become the players we all hope they will become.

This is a pretty hilarious way to phrase it man. Should we try to pry former all-star Deng from the Lakers. Heck former all-star Roy Hibbert is only 1 year older than Teague. Funny phrasing aside, Teague is not a quality starting point guard at this point. I really don't think you can win a championship with him starting at point guard, and you obviously can with Irving because it has happened.

 While KAT has potential you are definitely overselling his defense. He has been bad throughout his career and I believe Butler has even frustrated by his work ethic. I don't know why we would give up our championship opportunity this year when it is not clear if a team of Tatum, Towns, Horford, Hayward and Teague would ever even be able to compete for one.
come on you didn't even bold the full sentence. Talk about taking things out of context and running with nonsense.  Par for the course unfortunately.

Towns had the best DRTG on the Wolves and they were 13.4 points per 100 possessions worse with him on the bench. Those are the actual numbers.  They are also a lot better than Irving who is a downright awful defender which was the point I was making. Towns is a better defender than Irving and he was also a better offensive player.  That means Towns is better than Irving.

Own what you write you why you write the words you do. On a forum it is all we have. You put the phrase in "former all-star" to build the case of how good a player Teague is. I pointed out that this is a silly thing to do because it was in the 2014-2015 season (and a selection based on team success). You go back one year earlier and you have Noah, Hibbert, Joe Johnson and Tony Parker in the game and I doubt you would be saying "former all-star" when discussing picking up those guys.

Teague is a bottom 10 starting point guard at best, and probably be a worse option for starting than rozier. You can window dress his stats or all-star appearance from 3 years ago, but he is not a very good player.
No, my point was that he was still in his prime and has basically been performing the same for the last 6 years (one of which was an all star appearance).  That is what I wrote.  You took the first few words of a post and went to nonsensical levels.  Again pretty typical from you, especially where I'm concerned because you always do that crap.

Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #85 on: August 17, 2018, 04:21:36 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Gauging interest, what about a trade to the Wolves. 

Irving and Brown and for Teague and Towns.  That I think would be an interesting trade for both teams.  Boston gets a decent replacement for Irving in Teague and gets the big man the team is missing in Towns.  The Wolves then get to build around Irving and Butler, with Brown as a potential 3rd, which also allows them to move on from Wiggins.  Obviously the Wolves only do that if they have some sort of assurance from both Irving and Butler, but I do think that would be an interesting trade for both teams.

You could argue Minny gets the best two players in that trade.
No you couldn't.  Towns is clearly better than Brown and it isn't close.  I think you could reasonably argue Towns is better than Irving.  Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.

On the same reasoning you might use for Towns over Brown, I think you should use for Irving over Towns. Towns no-showed in the playoffs, whereas Irving hit one of the biggest shots in finals history. Irving is the more proven player.

I don't necessarily think Brown is better than Towns (edit: wrong order), but I do think you could argue that high level two-way wings are more valuable than offensive-minded, defensive sivs big men.

On top of that, if you compare their last post-seasons, you could argue Brown was better. Brown's per 36 numbers were 20, 5, and 2 on 47/39/64 % shooting clips. Towns averaged 16, 14 and 2 on 47/27/74 shooting clips. The Wolves offrating was 106 and defrating was 112 with Towns on the floor. The Celtics offrating was 108 and defrathingwas 108 with Brown on the floor.

Lol! I love how Moranis just glosses over this part. So hilarious. Towns may be better, but he's one of the most overrated players in the league. He was better a rookie imo when he was more mobile. He has lost speed. Needs to lose the fat
Except I didn't.  I actually responded to that post.  Thanks for playing.

Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #86 on: August 17, 2018, 04:53:51 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.

Oh wow. The hottest of takes right there.
Jeff Teague is a 30 year old former all star still very much in the prime of his career.  Over the last 6 seasons he has averaged basically 15 ppg and 7 apg (with over 2.5 rpg). 

Brown is definitely trending upward and at some point, maybe even this year, will almost certainly pass Teague up (if he hasn't already), but this board has a nasty habit of pretending young players have already become the players we all hope they will become.

This is a pretty hilarious way to phrase it man. Should we try to pry former all-star Deng from the Lakers. Heck former all-star Roy Hibbert is only 1 year older than Teague. Funny phrasing aside, Teague is not a quality starting point guard at this point. I really don't think you can win a championship with him starting at point guard, and you obviously can with Irving because it has happened.

 While KAT has potential you are definitely overselling his defense. He has been bad throughout his career and I believe Butler has even frustrated by his work ethic. I don't know why we would give up our championship opportunity this year when it is not clear if a team of Tatum, Towns, Horford, Hayward and Teague would ever even be able to compete for one.
come on you didn't even bold the full sentence. Talk about taking things out of context and running with nonsense.  Par for the course unfortunately.

Towns had the best DRTG on the Wolves and they were 13.4 points per 100 possessions worse with him on the bench. Those are the actual numbers.  They are also a lot better than Irving who is a downright awful defender which was the point I was making. Towns is a better defender than Irving and he was also a better offensive player.  That means Towns is better than Irving.

Own what you write you why you write the words you do. On a forum it is all we have. You put the phrase in "former all-star" to build the case of how good a player Teague is. I pointed out that this is a silly thing to do because it was in the 2014-2015 season (and a selection based on team success). You go back one year earlier and you have Noah, Hibbert, Joe Johnson and Tony Parker in the game and I doubt you would be saying "former all-star" when discussing picking up those guys.

Teague is a bottom 10 starting point guard at best, and probably be a worse option for starting than rozier. You can window dress his stats or all-star appearance from 3 years ago, but he is not a very good player.
No, my point was that he was still in his prime and has basically been performing the same for the last 6 years (one of which was an all star appearance).  That is what I wrote.  You took the first few words of a post and went to nonsensical levels.  Again pretty typical from you, especially where I'm concerned because you always do that crap.

Lets try to have a little more decorum man. I honestly read it as you trying to pump up how good a player he was by mentioning a random all-star game appearance from 3-4 seasons. No need for the personal attacks.

Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #87 on: August 17, 2018, 05:01:08 PM »

Offline Big333223

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Funny how the tide has turned on Towns on here.  He walked on water a year ago.  When I said I'd take Embiid over Towns, I was told that was crazy talk.

Yeah this is kind of extreme, isn't it? Towns averaged 21 and 12 last season with an eFG% of 60%, a year removed from a 25 and 12 season on 58 eFG%. Last season he made 72% of his shots inside 3 feet and over 40% from 3 on three attempts a game. He's one of the best, most versatile scorers in the NBA and last season he only took 14 shots a game because his team's offense is so screwed up.

He's not a good defender, it's true. It's also true that he's only 23 years old, the same age as Yabusele and younger than Semi Ojeleye.

Last season, I think Kyrie was better but Towns is still an All NBA caliber player and could easily be better than Kyrie this year.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 05:14:05 PM by Big333223 »
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Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #88 on: August 17, 2018, 05:05:36 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Funny how the tide has turned on Towns on here.  He walked on water a year ago.  When I said I'd take Embiid over Towns, I was told that was crazy talk.

You know that context matters right? Many people have said that if healthy Embiid is a more complete player than cause embiid plays defense (which funny enough is still what he is getting slammed for here). The issue was his health and durability. Has he answered that question after a season with no leg or back issues, maybe, but that was the whole point of the debate. I also don't believe you really forgot that either, so this is a pretty weak and hollow self-congratulatory post you made.
Saying if healthy is really a cop out.  Embiid's health is a risk but so is Towns inability/unwillingness to play good defense.  I'm also not sure Towns has the personality/drive to be a dominant player.  Embiid certainly has and he also has a very high learning aptitude.  I factored everything in and said I'd rather have Embiid even with the health risk.  As for self-congratulatory posts, I'll bow to the master of them. 

Putting that aside, the tenor on Towns has certainly changed.  No one was saying he was the most overrated player in the league.  Pretty much everyone was high on him and some said they'd take Towns over AD.   

Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #89 on: August 17, 2018, 05:05:48 PM »

Online nickagneta

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Enough with the personal stuff. Keep the subject on basketball and not posters