Author Topic: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"  (Read 5490 times)

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Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #60 on: August 16, 2018, 03:13:45 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Gauging interest, what about a trade to the Wolves. 

Irving and Brown and for Teague and Towns.  That I think would be an interesting trade for both teams.  Boston gets a decent replacement for Irving in Teague and gets the big man the team is missing in Towns.  The Wolves then get to build around Irving and Butler, with Brown as a potential 3rd, which also allows them to move on from Wiggins.  Obviously the Wolves only do that if they have some sort of assurance from both Irving and Butler, but I do think that would be an interesting trade for both teams.

You could argue Minny gets the best two players in that trade.
No you couldn't.  Towns is clearly better than Brown and it isn't close.  I think you could reasonably argue Towns is better than Irving.  Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.

Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #61 on: August 16, 2018, 03:21:05 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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I believe the chatter is substantial in that media members are talking about it. The volume of chatter always increases when one of the major markets is involved.

I don't think Kyrie leaves next year, but even if he and Butler sign with the Knicks I still think the C's would have a better team.

Mostly, I think this information is being leaked so that Boston and Minnesota know that they have to give Kyrie/Butler anything they want in their contract or they will leave.
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Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #62 on: August 16, 2018, 03:31:57 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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Gauging interest, what about a trade to the Wolves. 

Irving and Brown and for Teague and Towns.  That I think would be an interesting trade for both teams.  Boston gets a decent replacement for Irving in Teague and gets the big man the team is missing in Towns.  The Wolves then get to build around Irving and Butler, with Brown as a potential 3rd, which also allows them to move on from Wiggins.  Obviously the Wolves only do that if they have some sort of assurance from both Irving and Butler, but I do think that would be an interesting trade for both teams.

You could argue Minny gets the best two players in that trade.
No you couldn't.  Towns is clearly better than Brown and it isn't close.  I think you could reasonably argue Towns is better than Irving.  Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.
yes, you could.

Irving is the best player in that deal.  period.  best scorer by far.  capable defender.  very good passer and topnotch ball handler. 
Towns right now is the second best player in the deal but the gap between him and Brown isn't as big as you would suggest.  Towns doesn't defend well -- I'd attribute that to effort/motivation rather than the inability to do so.  Brown on the other hand is an excellent defender and his offense made a significant leap last year.  His motivation to improve is not questioned unlike Towns.  I would not be surprised in 2 years if Brown is perceived as the better player than Towns if he continues to make improvements to his game.

Teague is clearly the least valued player in that trade due to age and his skills have plateaued at a level I would consider to be less than Brown's current level.

Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #63 on: August 16, 2018, 04:03:52 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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Gauging interest, what about a trade to the Wolves. 

Irving and Brown and for Teague and Towns.  That I think would be an interesting trade for both teams.  Boston gets a decent replacement for Irving in Teague and gets the big man the team is missing in Towns.  The Wolves then get to build around Irving and Butler, with Brown as a potential 3rd, which also allows them to move on from Wiggins.  Obviously the Wolves only do that if they have some sort of assurance from both Irving and Butler, but I do think that would be an interesting trade for both teams.

You could argue Minny gets the best two players in that trade.
No you couldn't.  Towns is clearly better than Brown and it isn't close.  I think you could reasonably argue Towns is better than Irving.  Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.

On the same reasoning you might use for Towns over Brown, I think you should use for Irving over Towns. Towns no-showed in the playoffs, whereas Irving hit one of the biggest shots in finals history. Irving is the more proven player.

I don't necessarily think Brown is better than Towns (edit: wrong order), but I do think you could argue that high level two-way wings are more valuable than offensive-minded, defensive sivs big men.

On top of that, if you compare their last post-seasons, you could argue Brown was better. Brown's per 36 numbers were 20, 5, and 2 on 47/39/64 % shooting clips. Towns averaged 16, 14 and 2 on 47/27/74 shooting clips. The Wolves offrating was 106 and defrating was 112 with Towns on the floor. The Celtics offrating was 108 and defrathingwas 108 with Brown on the floor.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 04:13:54 PM by DefenseWinsChamps »

Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #64 on: August 16, 2018, 04:21:18 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.

Oh wow. The hottest of takes right there.

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Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #65 on: August 16, 2018, 04:30:15 PM »

Offline RJ87

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If there was anything that would lead me to believe Kyrie might leave its the fact that he really hasn't tried to connect with Boston at all since he's been traded. Hayward and Horford and their wives are always giving updates to Celtic fans on their injuries and what not, cheering for the team on Twitter. Hayward got on the mic and told all the fans he plans on being back stronger than ever.

One could imagine them being completely happy playing out their careers here. Because they chose Boston. Kyrie is still pretty distant. He talks about he would love to play with Porzingis. Even Maxwell said on Kaufman's podcast Kyrie is pretty standoffish to him, isn't real chatty. He decides to get surgery on the day of Game 7.

You never see Kyrie just expressing how much he likes the team unprompted. Some of that may just be his personality but if you wanted to be with a team long-term and wanted them to pay you over $100mm wouldn't you weave yourself into the fabric of the franchise a bit more? His twitter really has no C's branding on it at all. He's never in the media talking about the team.

It's just really strange..

Except he has. He's talked about how much he enjoys his teammates and Brad Stevens. But clearly, no one pays attention that stuff. Listen to him on the Bill Simmons podcast.

He's definitely embraced his teammates.  He was on the bench for several games during the playoffs (more than Hayward), having fun when his teammates do well.



We know he's talking with teammates during the offseason.

He's hosting local camps with teammates during the offseason.

Seems to be embracing the team and the city to me.

Agreed. But there's a narrative around him and no matter what evidence there is to suggest otherwise, people won't acknowledge it.
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Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #66 on: August 16, 2018, 04:39:36 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.

Oh wow. The hottest of takes right there.
Jeff Teague is a 30 year old former all star still very much in the prime of his career.  Over the last 6 seasons he has averaged basically 15 ppg and 7 apg (with over 2.5 rpg). 

Brown is definitely trending upward and at some point, maybe even this year, will almost certainly pass Teague up (if he hasn't already), but this board has a nasty habit of pretending young players have already become the players we all hope they will become. 

Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #67 on: August 16, 2018, 04:58:42 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Gauging interest, what about a trade to the Wolves. 

Irving and Brown and for Teague and Towns.  That I think would be an interesting trade for both teams.  Boston gets a decent replacement for Irving in Teague and gets the big man the team is missing in Towns.  The Wolves then get to build around Irving and Butler, with Brown as a potential 3rd, which also allows them to move on from Wiggins.  Obviously the Wolves only do that if they have some sort of assurance from both Irving and Butler, but I do think that would be an interesting trade for both teams.

You could argue Minny gets the best two players in that trade.
No you couldn't.  Towns is clearly better than Brown and it isn't close.  I think you could reasonably argue Towns is better than Irving.  Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.

On the same reasoning you might use for Towns over Brown, I think you should use for Irving over Towns. Towns no-showed in the playoffs, whereas Irving hit one of the biggest shots in finals history. Irving is the more proven player.

I don't necessarily think Brown is better than Towns (edit: wrong order), but I do think you could argue that high level two-way wings are more valuable than offensive-minded, defensive sivs big men.

On top of that, if you compare their last post-seasons, you could argue Brown was better. Brown's per 36 numbers were 20, 5, and 2 on 47/39/64 % shooting clips. Towns averaged 16, 14 and 2 on 47/27/74 shooting clips. The Wolves offrating was 106 and defrating was 112 with Towns on the floor. The Celtics offrating was 108 and defrathingwas 108 with Brown on the floor.
The Timberwolves played the Rockets.  You aren't seriously basing your analysis on a 5 game series against the best team in the league over the course of the season (who probably wins the title if Paul doesn't get hurt in the WCF).  I don't recall even seeing Irving playing the post season this year though. 

Towns in his 2nd and 3rd years averaged 25.1 p and 12.3 r and followed that up (on a better team) with 21.3 p and 12.3 r.  He adds around 2.5 assists and 1.4 blocks.  This year the Wolves were 13.5 points per 100 possessions worse when he was on the bench.  As a comparison Boston was only 3.1 points per 100 possessions worse when Irving was the on the bench (which is supported by the fact that Boston had almost essentially the same win pace in the games Irving missed and that includes the incredible start to the season).  Brown led the Celtics in on/off at 8.4 points per 100 possessions.   

As for Irving being a better scorer, for his career Irving scores just 1.26 points per shot (last year he was 1.35).  Towns for his career averages 1.39 points per shot (last year he was 1.49 which is an epic level).  Towns TS% last year was 64.6% and his career average is 61.8%.  Irving set his career high last year at 61.0% and his career average is just 56.8%. The highest individual season from 3PT% is 42.1% and it isn't Irving.  They have almost identical career 3PT% and Towns has gotten better all 3 seasons he has been in the league.  There is no question Irving is a better ball handler than Towns.

As for defense, Towns is not a great defender, but he is absolutely a better defender than Irving.  Irving is just a flat out awful defender.  He gives no effort and frankly even when he does he is mediocre at best.  Towns had the best DRTG on the Wolves last year and he had to cover a lot for guys like Wiggins and Gibson who are just awful defenders.  Put Towns on a team like the Celtics and all of a sudden he will magically become a good defender because he won't need to cover up the mistakes of others as much (he will also benefit a great deal from playing next to Horford as opposed to Gibson and Dieng who he just doesn't fit well next to).

Town is just flat out a monster.  The only reason the Wolves would consider making that type of trade would be as a means to keep Butler (with Irving) in Minnesota.  I suspect though that the Wolves would rather just keep Towns and move on from Butler as Towns is a monster, something no one else in that trade is (and yes that includes Irving).

Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #68 on: August 16, 2018, 04:58:42 PM »

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Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.

Oh wow. The hottest of takes right there.
Jeff Teague is a 30 year old former all star still very much in the prime of his career.  Over the last 6 seasons he has averaged basically 15 ppg and 7 apg (with over 2.5 rpg). 

Brown is definitely trending upward and at some point, maybe even this year, will almost certainly pass Teague up (if he hasn't already), but this board has a nasty habit of pretending young players have already become the players we all hope they will become.
Instead of looking at Teague's last 5 years let's do a comparison of each player's 2017-18 season:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Jaylen+Brown&player_id1_select=Jaylen+Brown&y1=2018&player_id1=brownja02&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Jeff+Teague&player_id2_select=Jeff+Teague&y2=2018&player_id2=teaguje01&idx=players

Sure looks like they have numbers that are pretty close but Brown came in 15th in voting for the All-Defense team. To me, that says Brown is already the better player with a ton of potential to really separate how much better he is this year.

Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #69 on: August 16, 2018, 05:01:38 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.

Oh wow. The hottest of takes right there.
Jeff Teague is a 30 year old former all star still very much in the prime of his career.  Over the last 6 seasons he has averaged basically 15 ppg and 7 apg (with over 2.5 rpg). 

Brown is definitely trending upward and at some point, maybe even this year, will almost certainly pass Teague up (if he hasn't already), but this board has a nasty habit of pretending young players have already become the players we all hope they will become.

Yes. That is true, but I think you also may have the tendency of over-estimating other players.

Teague's all-star appearance was in a down year in the East when the Hawks won 60 games in a perfect team system. He is a perfectly average point guard. He is a good pick-and-roll player, solid passer, and good shooter. But he is a below average defender. He is probably in the same tier as a healthy Brandon Knight, or Reggie Jackson, or Schroeder. Honestly, players like Teague are extremely expendable, because guards who can run the pick-and-roll are a dime-a-dozen. Players like Dinwiddie, or Payton, or Mills, or Ish Smith can provide almost as much production at a fraction of the cost. If Thibs wouldn't have outbidded himself, I'm not sure what kind of contract Teague would have got last year.

Players like Brown, even if Brown never gets better (and he likely will), are much more valuable than Teague. Brown can guard 1-4 (and often did last year), shoot at a good clip, and rebound pretty well. His versatility is a highly-coveted asset in the league right now.

You could possibly argue Teague is a better player than Brown (although I'd disagree), but when I said the Wolves get the two best players in the deal, I wasn't just talking present-day. Brown's value is probably at least double Teague's especially on Teague's contract.

Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #70 on: August 16, 2018, 05:46:32 PM »

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Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.

Oh wow. The hottest of takes right there.

If I had the time, I’d argue that in this crazy world where we make such a trade Teague doesn’t even start for the Celtics.
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Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #71 on: August 16, 2018, 06:05:30 PM »

Offline td450

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Gauging interest, what about a trade to the Wolves. 

Irving and Brown and for Teague and Towns.  That I think would be an interesting trade for both teams.  Boston gets a decent replacement for Irving in Teague and gets the big man the team is missing in Towns.  The Wolves then get to build around Irving and Butler, with Brown as a potential 3rd, which also allows them to move on from Wiggins.  Obviously the Wolves only do that if they have some sort of assurance from both Irving and Butler, but I do think that would be an interesting trade for both teams.

You could argue Minny gets the best two players in that trade.
No you couldn't.  Towns is clearly better than Brown and it isn't close.  I think you could reasonably argue Towns is better than Irving.  Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.
I'd bet that the C's wouldn't take that deal, and I'd also bet Minnesota would become a better team if they did.

Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #72 on: August 16, 2018, 06:17:10 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.

Oh wow. The hottest of takes right there.
Jeff Teague is a 30 year old former all star still very much in the prime of his career.  Over the last 6 seasons he has averaged basically 15 ppg and 7 apg (with over 2.5 rpg). 

Brown is definitely trending upward and at some point, maybe even this year, will almost certainly pass Teague up (if he hasn't already), but this board has a nasty habit of pretending young players have already become the players we all hope they will become.

This is a pretty hilarious way to phrase it man. Should we try to pry former all-star Deng from the Lakers. Heck former all-star Roy Hibbert is only 1 year older than Teague. Funny phrasing aside, Teague is not a quality starting point guard at this point. I really don't think you can win a championship with him starting at point guard, and you obviously can with Irving because it has happened.

 While KAT has potential you are definitely overselling his defense. He has been bad throughout his career and I believe Butler has even frustrated by his work ethic. I don't know why we would give up our championship opportunity this year when it is not clear if a team of Tatum, Towns, Horford, Hayward and Teague would ever even be able to compete for one. 

Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #73 on: August 17, 2018, 06:59:50 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.

Oh wow. The hottest of takes right there.
Jeff Teague is a 30 year old former all star still very much in the prime of his career.  Over the last 6 seasons he has averaged basically 15 ppg and 7 apg (with over 2.5 rpg). 

Brown is definitely trending upward and at some point, maybe even this year, will almost certainly pass Teague up (if he hasn't already), but this board has a nasty habit of pretending young players have already become the players we all hope they will become.

This is a pretty hilarious way to phrase it man. Should we try to pry former all-star Deng from the Lakers. Heck former all-star Roy Hibbert is only 1 year older than Teague. Funny phrasing aside, Teague is not a quality starting point guard at this point. I really don't think you can win a championship with him starting at point guard, and you obviously can with Irving because it has happened.

 While KAT has potential you are definitely overselling his defense. He has been bad throughout his career and I believe Butler has even frustrated by his work ethic. I don't know why we would give up our championship opportunity this year when it is not clear if a team of Tatum, Towns, Horford, Hayward and Teague would ever even be able to compete for one.
come on you didn't even bold the full sentence. Talk about taking things out of context and running with nonsense.  Par for the course unfortunately.

Towns had the best DRTG on the Wolves and they were 13.4 points per 100 possessions worse with him on the bench. Those are the actual numbers.  They are also a lot better than Irving who is a downright awful defender which was the point I was making. Towns is a better defender than Irving and he was also a better offensive player.  That means Towns is better than Irving.

Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
« Reply #74 on: August 17, 2018, 07:58:06 AM »

Offline The Oracle

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Towns is an absolute abomination defensively, period end of story.  He is probably the single most exploitable big man in the entire NBA that is getting significant minutes.  He can't defend the perimeter at all.  He can't defend the pick and roll.  He has extremely slow feet and is constantly out of position.  It is unfathomable for someone to argue otherwise.

He did not have the best defensive rating on the Wolves unless you are looking at that garbage stat on BBREF, Jimmy Butler led them at 105.1 per 100 possessions. 

The reason Towns on/off #'s are so good is because their bench was awful.  Towns numbers when not on the floor with Butler are equally awful defensively.

Just LOL at trading Irving and Brown for Towns and Teague!  Trying to win championships in this league with a Center that is as easily exploitable as Towns is next to impossible.