Author Topic: I believe Horford will make way for Davis  (Read 2021 times)

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Re: I believe Horford will make way for Davis
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2018, 02:21:11 PM »

Offline Sophomore

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I’d love having a top 3 player in the league here, but I don’t know how realistic it is


Davis is not a top three player.
Who is then?

I'd have him over everyone not named LeBron. And if it was for a 4 year period, I might choose him over LeBron anyway

James, Curry, and Durant are unquestionably more valuable. Some other players are in the discussion as well.

Durant we could at least talk about. Curry is a hard no. Davis isn’t just a great scorer, capable of averaging 30 through the playoffs. He’s also a great defensive rebounder (top ten NBA) and one of the best defensive players in the league (1st team all-NBA) who transforms the kind of defense a team is able to play. He allowed the Pellies to take advantage of Mirotic’s shooting because he erases Mirotic’s mistakes on defense. Also, Davis was 24 last year; there’s a pretty good chance he’ll be even better this coming year.
Curry is a great shooter and a good creator on offense; but he’s average on defense. If you consider both sides of the ball, Davis has to come out on top.



Funny how Curry is a no, considering he was a the best player on the greatest team of all time and the best player on the best team in the league for the last five years. He's also not just a great scorer, he is the best shooter of all time, and it's not even close. There has never been a player in the league before like Curry.

Curry was not the best player on GSW the past two years and it’s not close. There is a reason KD won Finals MVP the past two years. He was the only player on the floor in LeBron’s class.

Curry is a great shooter, I take nothing away from him. But shooting is only one part of the game. And he’s at best an OK defender. AD can carry a team on both sides of the court in a way Curry simply cannot. Subtract Curry from GSW and they might still make the Finals. Subtract Durant and they do not, full stop.

Re: I believe Horford will make way for Davis
« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2018, 02:30:07 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Those pining for AD answer me THIS -

With HIM in our lineup

AD
GH
Tatum
Brown
KI

Where will the pecking order stand?

I am CERTAIN that AD will not take LESS shots to defer to Brown and Tatum.

Those two DESERVE shot opportunities. They've EARNED it (see 2017-18 playoffs).

If Danny goes this route I am onboard as a Celtics fan but let's go ahead and CLEAR HOUSE for AD in this regard -

Big Al
Tatum
Jaylen Brown

for Anthony Davis.

While I'd HATE that trade that is (to ME) the ONLY way to keep Kyrie, GH and AD happy. There is only so much basketball to go around.

I just hope that Danny Ainge STAYS THE COURSE. We have our team RIGHT HERE that will compete in the EAST and against the GSW's, HOU's and OKC's in the NBA.



That is an awful trade for the Celtics and makes the team substantially worse.

Oh, I agree - make no mistake about it.

I just hope folks consider CHEMISTRY while pining for AD.

I simply believe our team is READY right now.
Marcus Smart "Impacts Winning." Boston Celtics Coach Brad Stevens

Re: I believe Horford will make way for Davis
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2018, 02:35:58 PM »

Offline KungPoweChicken

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Iíd love having a top 3 player in the league here, but I donít know how realistic it is


Davis is not a top three player.
Who is then?

I'd have him over everyone not named LeBron. And if it was for a 4 year period, I might choose him over LeBron anyway

James, Curry, and Durant are unquestionably more valuable. Some other players are in the discussion as well.

Durant we could at least talk about. Curry is a hard no. Davis isnít just a great scorer, capable of averaging 30 through the playoffs. Heís also a great defensive rebounder (top ten NBA) and one of the best defensive players in the league (1st team all-NBA) who transforms the kind of defense a team is able to play. He allowed the Pellies to take advantage of Miroticís shooting because he erases Miroticís mistakes on defense. Also, Davis was 24 last year; thereís a pretty good chance heíll be even better this coming year.
Curry is a great shooter and a good creator on offense; but heís average on defense. If you consider both sides of the ball, Davis has to come out on top.



Funny how Curry is a no, considering he was a the best player on the greatest team of all time and the best player on the best team in the league for the last five years. He's also not just a great scorer, he is the best shooter of all time, and it's not even close. There has never been a player in the league before like Curry.

Curry was not the best player on GSW the past two years and itís not close. There is a reason KD won Finals MVP the past two years. He was the only player on the floor in LeBronís class.

Curry is a great shooter, I take nothing away from him. But shooting is only one part of the game. And heís at best an OK defender. AD can carry a team on both sides of the court in a way Curry simply cannot. Subtract Curry from GSW and they might still make the Finals. Subtract Durant and they do not, full stop.


The actually history suggests the contrary. That is, Curry has made the finals twice without Durant. Durant made the finals once without Curry and was swept, or lost in five, I believe. Not sure where you are getting ďCurry cannot make the finals without DurantĒ storyline.

Re: I believe Horford will make way for Davis
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2018, 03:02:44 PM »

Offline Sophomore

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Iíd love having a top 3 player in the league here, but I donít know how realistic it is


Davis is not a top three player.
Who is then?

I'd have him over everyone not named LeBron. And if it was for a 4 year period, I might choose him over LeBron anyway

James, Curry, and Durant are unquestionably more valuable. Some other players are in the discussion as well.

Durant we could at least talk about. Curry is a hard no. Davis isnít just a great scorer, capable of averaging 30 through the playoffs. Heís also a great defensive rebounder (top ten NBA) and one of the best defensive players in the league (1st team all-NBA) who transforms the kind of defense a team is able to play. He allowed the Pellies to take advantage of Miroticís shooting because he erases Miroticís mistakes on defense. Also, Davis was 24 last year; thereís a pretty good chance heíll be even better this coming year.
Curry is a great shooter and a good creator on offense; but heís average on defense. If you consider both sides of the ball, Davis has to come out on top.



Funny how Curry is a no, considering he was a the best player on the greatest team of all time and the best player on the best team in the league for the last five years. He's also not just a great scorer, he is the best shooter of all time, and it's not even close. There has never been a player in the league before like Curry.

Curry was not the best player on GSW the past two years and itís not close. There is a reason KD won Finals MVP the past two years. He was the only player on the floor in LeBronís class.

Curry is a great shooter, I take nothing away from him. But shooting is only one part of the game. And heís at best an OK defender. AD can carry a team on both sides of the court in a way Curry simply cannot. Subtract Curry from GSW and they might still make the Finals. Subtract Durant and they do not, full stop.


The actually history suggests the contrary. That is, Curry has made the finals twice without Durant. Durant made the finals once without Curry and was swept, or lost in five, I believe. Not sure where you are getting ďCurry cannot make the finals without DurantĒ storyline.

Iím not talking about the past, or what Durant would do with his old OKC team. Iím talking about next year, with the league built the way it is. Remember above when I pointed out that KD won the last two finals MVPs? I watched those series, and he earned those awards. I also remember who won finals MVP three years ago - the last time Curry went to the finals without Durant. Curry did not win that award, or the series.

Curry is a great player. Itís not a knock to say heís a top 20 player in the NBA(!) but if you donít play above average defense, itís very very hard to be considered best in the league. Itís a two-way game. It is one reason, I think, he was third team all NBA this year. Not first. Not second. Third.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 03:11:02 PM by Sophomore »

Re: I believe Horford will make way for Davis
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2018, 03:31:03 PM »

Offline JHTruth

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Horford being able to opt out after this season may be a problem, otherwise I could see Ainge doing this.  If the Sac pick is a top 3 pick and the Memphis pick is a late lottery that would go a long way to rebuilding the Pelicans along with the Clippers pick and Celtics picks. 

Kyrie
Brown
Hayward
Tatum
Davis

That team would be better than the Warriors by next season. 

I'd feel bad about Horford after he came here as a free agent though.

We look pathetic always pining for a player who had never as far as we know expressed one iota of interest in playing with the Cs.

This year well draft an elite wing and a top 10 big to replace Hayward and Al long term. We have a legit title shot this year. No need to beg for AD. No MVP candidate is traded just as they enter their prime. Would be idiocy..

Re: I believe Horford will make way for Davis
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2018, 04:50:52 PM »

Offline KungPoweChicken

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Iíd love having a top 3 player in the league here, but I donít know how realistic it is


Davis is not a top three player.
Who is then?

I'd have him over everyone not named LeBron. And if it was for a 4 year period, I might choose him over LeBron anyway

James, Curry, and Durant are unquestionably more valuable. Some other players are in the discussion as well.

Durant we could at least talk about. Curry is a hard no. Davis isnít just a great scorer, capable of averaging 30 through the playoffs. Heís also a great defensive rebounder (top ten NBA) and one of the best defensive players in the league (1st team all-NBA) who transforms the kind of defense a team is able to play. He allowed the Pellies to take advantage of Miroticís shooting because he erases Miroticís mistakes on defense. Also, Davis was 24 last year; thereís a pretty good chance heíll be even better this coming year.
Curry is a great shooter and a good creator on offense; but heís average on defense. If you consider both sides of the ball, Davis has to come out on top.



Funny how Curry is a no, considering he was a the best player on the greatest team of all time and the best player on the best team in the league for the last five years. He's also not just a great scorer, he is the best shooter of all time, and it's not even close. There has never been a player in the league before like Curry.

Curry was not the best player on GSW the past two years and itís not close. There is a reason KD won Finals MVP the past two years. He was the only player on the floor in LeBronís class.

Curry is a great shooter, I take nothing away from him. But shooting is only one part of the game. And heís at best an OK defender. AD can carry a team on both sides of the court in a way Curry simply cannot. Subtract Curry from GSW and they might still make the Finals. Subtract Durant and they do not, full stop.


The actually history suggests the contrary. That is, Curry has made the finals twice without Durant. Durant made the finals once without Curry and was swept, or lost in five, I believe. Not sure where you are getting ďCurry cannot make the finals without DurantĒ storyline.

Iím not talking about the past, or what Durant would do with his old OKC team. Iím talking about next year, with the league built the way it is. Remember above when I pointed out that KD won the last two finals MVPs? I watched those series, and he earned those awards. I also remember who won finals MVP three years ago - the last time Curry went to the finals without Durant. Curry did not win that award, or the series.

Curry is a great player. Itís not a knock to say heís a top 20 player in the NBA(!) but if you donít play above average defense, itís very very hard to be considered best in the league. Itís a two-way game. It is one reason, I think, he was third team all NBA this year. Not first. Not second. Third.


He has been the unquestioned best player on the best team for the past four/five years. You keep diminishing all of his greatness.



Statistically, it is very easy to make the argument that Curry is the best, most efficient offensive player of all time. Just look at his TS% numbers.

It is not a surprise why arguably the best offensive player of all time has won a substantial amount of games the past five years. It has everything to do with Curry and his style of play.

His TS% this past year was a godly 68%. If you donít realize how valuable that is and how that translates to winning you donít understand metrics.

People on this forum think Irving is a great offensive player and a great shooter. And he is very good. No question. But as a reference, Kyrieís TS% this past year was 61%, which is unbelievable. But it is still significantly worse than Curry. That is how good Curry is and that is how he completely changes the game. He is significantly more valuable than any big man in the game today. I donít care who that big man is.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 05:30:47 PM by KungPoweChicken »

Re: I believe Horford will make way for Davis
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2018, 06:14:43 PM »

Offline Sophomore

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Iíd love having a top 3 player in the league here, but I donít know how realistic it is


Davis is not a top three player.
Who is then?

I'd have him over everyone not named LeBron. And if it was for a 4 year period, I might choose him over LeBron anyway

James, Curry, and Durant are unquestionably more valuable. Some other players are in the discussion as well.

Durant we could at least talk about. Curry is a hard no. Davis isnít just a great scorer, capable of averaging 30 through the playoffs. Heís also a great defensive rebounder (top ten NBA) and one of the best defensive players in the league (1st team all-NBA) who transforms the kind of defense a team is able to play. He allowed the Pellies to take advantage of Miroticís shooting because he erases Miroticís mistakes on defense. Also, Davis was 24 last year; thereís a pretty good chance heíll be even better this coming year.
Curry is a great shooter and a good creator on offense; but heís average on defense. If you consider both sides of the ball, Davis has to come out on top.



Funny how Curry is a no, considering he was a the best player on the greatest team of all time and the best player on the best team in the league for the last five years. He's also not just a great scorer, he is the best shooter of all time, and it's not even close. There has never been a player in the league before like Curry.

Curry was not the best player on GSW the past two years and itís not close. There is a reason KD won Finals MVP the past two years. He was the only player on the floor in LeBronís class.

Curry is a great shooter, I take nothing away from him. But shooting is only one part of the game. And heís at best an OK defender. AD can carry a team on both sides of the court in a way Curry simply cannot. Subtract Curry from GSW and they might still make the Finals. Subtract Durant and they do not, full stop.


The actually history suggests the contrary. That is, Curry has made the finals twice without Durant. Durant made the finals once without Curry and was swept, or lost in five, I believe. Not sure where you are getting ďCurry cannot make the finals without DurantĒ storyline.

Iím not talking about the past, or what Durant would do with his old OKC team. Iím talking about next year, with the league built the way it is. Remember above when I pointed out that KD won the last two finals MVPs? I watched those series, and he earned those awards. I also remember who won finals MVP three years ago - the last time Curry went to the finals without Durant. Curry did not win that award, or the series.

Curry is a great player. Itís not a knock to say heís a top 20 player in the NBA(!) but if you donít play above average defense, itís very very hard to be considered best in the league. Itís a two-way game. It is one reason, I think, he was third team all NBA this year. Not first. Not second. Third.


He has been the unquestioned best player on the best team for the past four/five years. You keep diminishing all of his greatness.



Statistically, it is very easy to make the argument that Curry is the best, most efficient offensive player of all time. Just look at his TS% numbers.

It is not a surprise why arguably the best offensive player of all time has won a substantial amount of games the past five years. It has everything to do with Curry and his style of play.

His TS% this past year was a godly 68%. If you donít realize how valuable that is and how that translates to winning you donít understand metrics.

ADís TS was .612 last year - which is hardly dog meat - and he was nearly defensive player of the year! And he was sixth in the NBA in DRB%. Curryís extra .06 in TS last year mattered, but the defensive gap between them is vast. We donít have great metrics to capture that. We do have VORP, though, which tries.  Davisí was higher than Curryís last year.

And donít overlook this - next year Davis will be 25 - still rising to his prime. Curry will be 30. Maybe when both their careers are over weíll look back and say Curryís star shined brighter. But we are not talking about that here - the question is if one of them will be a top-3 player in the NBA *this coming year*, or maybe the year after that (when ppl are saying we might get AD). Maybe Curry will break Father Time, but my money is on Davis continuing to improve and Curry already having reached his peak.

If Curry simply falls back toward his career average TS of .62%, itís entirely possible Davis beats him even in TS%.

One final aside - your tone suggests that Iím all on my own in this evaluation. Clearly Iím not.

Re: I believe Horford will make way for Davis
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2018, 09:14:13 PM »

Offline KungPoweChicken

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Iíd love having a top 3 player in the league here, but I donít know how realistic it is


Davis is not a top three player.
Who is then?

I'd have him over everyone not named LeBron. And if it was for a 4 year period, I might choose him over LeBron anyway

James, Curry, and Durant are unquestionably more valuable. Some other players are in the discussion as well.

Durant we could at least talk about. Curry is a hard no. Davis isnít just a great scorer, capable of averaging 30 through the playoffs. Heís also a great defensive rebounder (top ten NBA) and one of the best defensive players in the league (1st team all-NBA) who transforms the kind of defense a team is able to play. He allowed the Pellies to take advantage of Miroticís shooting because he erases Miroticís mistakes on defense. Also, Davis was 24 last year; thereís a pretty good chance heíll be even better this coming year.
Curry is a great shooter and a good creator on offense; but heís average on defense. If you consider both sides of the ball, Davis has to come out on top.



Funny how Curry is a no, considering he was a the best player on the greatest team of all time and the best player on the best team in the league for the last five years. He's also not just a great scorer, he is the best shooter of all time, and it's not even close. There has never been a player in the league before like Curry.

Curry was not the best player on GSW the past two years and itís not close. There is a reason KD won Finals MVP the past two years. He was the only player on the floor in LeBronís class.

Curry is a great shooter, I take nothing away from him. But shooting is only one part of the game. And heís at best an OK defender. AD can carry a team on both sides of the court in a way Curry simply cannot. Subtract Curry from GSW and they might still make the Finals. Subtract Durant and they do not, full stop.


The actually history suggests the contrary. That is, Curry has made the finals twice without Durant. Durant made the finals once without Curry and was swept, or lost in five, I believe. Not sure where you are getting ďCurry cannot make the finals without DurantĒ storyline.

Iím not talking about the past, or what Durant would do with his old OKC team. Iím talking about next year, with the league built the way it is. Remember above when I pointed out that KD won the last two finals MVPs? I watched those series, and he earned those awards. I also remember who won finals MVP three years ago - the last time Curry went to the finals without Durant. Curry did not win that award, or the series.

Curry is a great player. Itís not a knock to say heís a top 20 player in the NBA(!) but if you donít play above average defense, itís very very hard to be considered best in the league. Itís a two-way game. It is one reason, I think, he was third team all NBA this year. Not first. Not second. Third.


He has been the unquestioned best player on the best team for the past four/five years. You keep diminishing all of his greatness.



Statistically, it is very easy to make the argument that Curry is the best, most efficient offensive player of all time. Just look at his TS% numbers.

It is not a surprise why arguably the best offensive player of all time has won a substantial amount of games the past five years. It has everything to do with Curry and his style of play.

His TS% this past year was a godly 68%. If you donít realize how valuable that is and how that translates to winning you donít understand metrics.

ADís TS was .612 last year - which is hardly dog meat - and he was nearly defensive player of the year! And he was sixth in the NBA in DRB%. Curryís extra .06 in TS last year mattered, but the defensive gap between them is vast. We donít have great metrics to capture that. We do have VORP, though, which tries.  Davisí was higher than Curryís last year.

And donít overlook this - next year Davis will be 25 - still rising to his prime. Curry will be 30. Maybe when both their careers are over weíll look back and say Curryís star shined brighter. But we are not talking about that here - the question is if one of them will be a top-3 player in the NBA *this coming year*, or maybe the year after that (when ppl are saying we might get AD). Maybe Curry will break Father Time, but my money is on Davis continuing to improve and Curry already having reached his peak.

If Curry simply falls back toward his career average TS of .62%, itís entirely possible Davis beats him even in TS%.

One final aside - your tone suggests that Iím all on my own in this evaluation. Clearly Iím not.

If he is so good, why has he only made the playoffs two times in his first six years in the league. By comparison, Kevin Garnett made the playoffs five out of his first six years in the league.

Re: I believe Horford will make way for Davis
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2018, 10:51:33 PM »

Offline Sophomore

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Iíd love having a top 3 player in the league here, but I donít know how realistic it is


Davis is not a top three player.
Who is then?

I'd have him over everyone not named LeBron. And if it was for a 4 year period, I might choose him over LeBron anyway

James, Curry, and Durant are unquestionably more valuable. Some other players are in the discussion as well.

Durant we could at least talk about. Curry is a hard no. Davis isnít just a great scorer, capable of averaging 30 through the playoffs. Heís also a great defensive rebounder (top ten NBA) and one of the best defensive players in the league (1st team all-NBA) who transforms the kind of defense a team is able to play. He allowed the Pellies to take advantage of Miroticís shooting because he erases Miroticís mistakes on defense. Also, Davis was 24 last year; thereís a pretty good chance heíll be even better this coming year.
Curry is a great shooter and a good creator on offense; but heís average on defense. If you consider both sides of the ball, Davis has to come out on top.



Funny how Curry is a no, considering he was a the best player on the greatest team of all time and the best player on the best team in the league for the last five years. He's also not just a great scorer, he is the best shooter of all time, and it's not even close. There has never been a player in the league before like Curry.

Curry was not the best player on GSW the past two years and itís not close. There is a reason KD won Finals MVP the past two years. He was the only player on the floor in LeBronís class.

Curry is a great shooter, I take nothing away from him. But shooting is only one part of the game. And heís at best an OK defender. AD can carry a team on both sides of the court in a way Curry simply cannot. Subtract Curry from GSW and they might still make the Finals. Subtract Durant and they do not, full stop.


The actually history suggests the contrary. That is, Curry has made the finals twice without Durant. Durant made the finals once without Curry and was swept, or lost in five, I believe. Not sure where you are getting ďCurry cannot make the finals without DurantĒ storyline.

Iím not talking about the past, or what Durant would do with his old OKC team. Iím talking about next year, with the league built the way it is. Remember above when I pointed out that KD won the last two finals MVPs? I watched those series, and he earned those awards. I also remember who won finals MVP three years ago - the last time Curry went to the finals without Durant. Curry did not win that award, or the series.

Curry is a great player. Itís not a knock to say heís a top 20 player in the NBA(!) but if you donít play above average defense, itís very very hard to be considered best in the league. Itís a two-way game. It is one reason, I think, he was third team all NBA this year. Not first. Not second. Third.


He has been the unquestioned best player on the best team for the past four/five years. You keep diminishing all of his greatness.



Statistically, it is very easy to make the argument that Curry is the best, most efficient offensive player of all time. Just look at his TS% numbers.

It is not a surprise why arguably the best offensive player of all time has won a substantial amount of games the past five years. It has everything to do with Curry and his style of play.

His TS% this past year was a godly 68%. If you donít realize how valuable that is and how that translates to winning you donít understand metrics.

ADís TS was .612 last year - which is hardly dog meat - and he was nearly defensive player of the year! And he was sixth in the NBA in DRB%. Curryís extra .06 in TS last year mattered, but the defensive gap between them is vast. We donít have great metrics to capture that. We do have VORP, though, which tries.  Davisí was higher than Curryís last year.

And donít overlook this - next year Davis will be 25 - still rising to his prime. Curry will be 30. Maybe when both their careers are over weíll look back and say Curryís star shined brighter. But we are not talking about that here - the question is if one of them will be a top-3 player in the NBA *this coming year*, or maybe the year after that (when ppl are saying we might get AD). Maybe Curry will break Father Time, but my money is on Davis continuing to improve and Curry already having reached his peak.

If Curry simply falls back toward his career average TS of .62%, itís entirely possible Davis beats him even in TS%.

One final aside - your tone suggests that Iím all on my own in this evaluation. Clearly Iím not.

If he is so good, why has he only made the playoffs two times in his first six years in the league. By comparison, Kevin Garnett made the playoffs five out of his first six years in the league.

I'd agree that a truly great player - a top-five or top-three player - should rarely miss the playoffs.

Davis did make the playoffs last year, carrying a club that had some highly questionable roster construction. E'twaun Moore got more than 30 minutes a game on that team(!) Jrue Holiday was probably the second best player, and they also gave heavy minutes to a player that the miserable Chicago Bulls practically threw away - Nikola Mirotic. Davis dragged them into the playoffs.

If you want to argue about what was going on in the more distant past, I don't really have a dog in that hunt. We are talking about this coming year and the year after.  If we want to do a retrospective of players' early careers, it's not going to be favorable to Steph  - who didn't make an all-star team in any of his first four years and didn't get to the playoffs until year four, where he had a pedestrian TS% of 56% over 12 games. But none of this is relevant to the question we're talking about:  who is going to be better next year and the year after that.

I still haven't heard anything about how you evaluate the gap in these players' defensive abilities. Do you acknowledge that there is a very large difference between their abilities on that side of the ball?  Do you think Curry is such a vastly better offensive player that this doesn't matter?




Re: I believe Horford will make way for Davis
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2018, 11:20:27 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Iíd love having a top 3 player in the league here, but I donít know how realistic it is


Davis is not a top three player.
Who is then?

I'd have him over everyone not named LeBron. And if it was for a 4 year period, I might choose him over LeBron anyway

James, Curry, and Durant are unquestionably more valuable. Some other players are in the discussion as well.

Durant we could at least talk about. Curry is a hard no. Davis isnít just a great scorer, capable of averaging 30 through the playoffs. Heís also a great defensive rebounder (top ten NBA) and one of the best defensive players in the league (1st team all-NBA) who transforms the kind of defense a team is able to play. He allowed the Pellies to take advantage of Miroticís shooting because he erases Miroticís mistakes on defense. Also, Davis was 24 last year; thereís a pretty good chance heíll be even better this coming year.
Curry is a great shooter and a good creator on offense; but heís average on defense. If you consider both sides of the ball, Davis has to come out on top.



Funny how Curry is a no, considering he was a the best player on the greatest team of all time and the best player on the best team in the league for the last five years. He's also not just a great scorer, he is the best shooter of all time, and it's not even close. There has never been a player in the league before like Curry.

Curry was not the best player on GSW the past two years and itís not close. There is a reason KD won Finals MVP the past two years. He was the only player on the floor in LeBronís class.

Curry is a great shooter, I take nothing away from him. But shooting is only one part of the game. And heís at best an OK defender. AD can carry a team on both sides of the court in a way Curry simply cannot. Subtract Curry from GSW and they might still make the Finals. Subtract Durant and they do not, full stop.


The actually history suggests the contrary. That is, Curry has made the finals twice without Durant. Durant made the finals once without Curry and was swept, or lost in five, I believe. Not sure where you are getting ďCurry cannot make the finals without DurantĒ storyline.

Iím not talking about the past, or what Durant would do with his old OKC team. Iím talking about next year, with the league built the way it is. Remember above when I pointed out that KD won the last two finals MVPs? I watched those series, and he earned those awards. I also remember who won finals MVP three years ago - the last time Curry went to the finals without Durant. Curry did not win that award, or the series.

Curry is a great player. Itís not a knock to say heís a top 20 player in the NBA(!) but if you donít play above average defense, itís very very hard to be considered best in the league. Itís a two-way game. It is one reason, I think, he was third team all NBA this year. Not first. Not second. Third.


He has been the unquestioned best player on the best team for the past four/five years. You keep diminishing all of his greatness.



Statistically, it is very easy to make the argument that Curry is the best, most efficient offensive player of all time. Just look at his TS% numbers.

It is not a surprise why arguably the best offensive player of all time has won a substantial amount of games the past five years. It has everything to do with Curry and his style of play.

His TS% this past year was a godly 68%. If you donít realize how valuable that is and how that translates to winning you donít understand metrics.

ADís TS was .612 last year - which is hardly dog meat - and he was nearly defensive player of the year! And he was sixth in the NBA in DRB%. Curryís extra .06 in TS last year mattered, but the defensive gap between them is vast. We donít have great metrics to capture that. We do have VORP, though, which tries.  Davisí was higher than Curryís last year.

And donít overlook this - next year Davis will be 25 - still rising to his prime. Curry will be 30. Maybe when both their careers are over weíll look back and say Curryís star shined brighter. But we are not talking about that here - the question is if one of them will be a top-3 player in the NBA *this coming year*, or maybe the year after that (when ppl are saying we might get AD). Maybe Curry will break Father Time, but my money is on Davis continuing to improve and Curry already having reached his peak.

If Curry simply falls back toward his career average TS of .62%, itís entirely possible Davis beats him even in TS%.

One final aside - your tone suggests that Iím all on my own in this evaluation. Clearly Iím not.

If he is so good, why has he only made the playoffs two times in his first six years in the league. By comparison, Kevin Garnett made the playoffs five out of his first six years in the league.
Why did Curry only make it twice in his first 5 years?

This is a hilariously weak argument. That you're seriously arguing for Curry over Davis at this stage is laughable

Re: I believe Horford will make way for Davis
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2018, 12:20:11 AM »

Offline KungPoweChicken

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Iíd love having a top 3 player in the league here, but I donít know how realistic it is


Davis is not a top three player.
Who is then?

I'd have him over everyone not named LeBron. And if it was for a 4 year period, I might choose him over LeBron anyway

James, Curry, and Durant are unquestionably more valuable. Some other players are in the discussion as well.

Durant we could at least talk about. Curry is a hard no. Davis isnít just a great scorer, capable of averaging 30 through the playoffs. Heís also a great defensive rebounder (top ten NBA) and one of the best defensive players in the league (1st team all-NBA) who transforms the kind of defense a team is able to play. He allowed the Pellies to take advantage of Miroticís shooting because he erases Miroticís mistakes on defense. Also, Davis was 24 last year; thereís a pretty good chance heíll be even better this coming year.
Curry is a great shooter and a good creator on offense; but heís average on defense. If you consider both sides of the ball, Davis has to come out on top.



Funny how Curry is a no, considering he was a the best player on the greatest team of all time and the best player on the best team in the league for the last five years. He's also not just a great scorer, he is the best shooter of all time, and it's not even close. There has never been a player in the league before like Curry.

Curry was not the best player on GSW the past two years and itís not close. There is a reason KD won Finals MVP the past two years. He was the only player on the floor in LeBronís class.

Curry is a great shooter, I take nothing away from him. But shooting is only one part of the game. And heís at best an OK defender. AD can carry a team on both sides of the court in a way Curry simply cannot. Subtract Curry from GSW and they might still make the Finals. Subtract Durant and they do not, full stop.


The actually history suggests the contrary. That is, Curry has made the finals twice without Durant. Durant made the finals once without Curry and was swept, or lost in five, I believe. Not sure where you are getting ďCurry cannot make the finals without DurantĒ storyline.

Iím not talking about the past, or what Durant would do with his old OKC team. Iím talking about next year, with the league built the way it is. Remember above when I pointed out that KD won the last two finals MVPs? I watched those series, and he earned those awards. I also remember who won finals MVP three years ago - the last time Curry went to the finals without Durant. Curry did not win that award, or the series.

Curry is a great player. Itís not a knock to say heís a top 20 player in the NBA(!) but if you donít play above average defense, itís very very hard to be considered best in the league. Itís a two-way game. It is one reason, I think, he was third team all NBA this year. Not first. Not second. Third.


He has been the unquestioned best player on the best team for the past four/five years. You keep diminishing all of his greatness.



Statistically, it is very easy to make the argument that Curry is the best, most efficient offensive player of all time. Just look at his TS% numbers.

It is not a surprise why arguably the best offensive player of all time has won a substantial amount of games the past five years. It has everything to do with Curry and his style of play.

His TS% this past year was a godly 68%. If you donít realize how valuable that is and how that translates to winning you donít understand metrics.

ADís TS was .612 last year - which is hardly dog meat - and he was nearly defensive player of the year! And he was sixth in the NBA in DRB%. Curryís extra .06 in TS last year mattered, but the defensive gap between them is vast. We donít have great metrics to capture that. We do have VORP, though, which tries.  Davisí was higher than Curryís last year.

And donít overlook this - next year Davis will be 25 - still rising to his prime. Curry will be 30. Maybe when both their careers are over weíll look back and say Curryís star shined brighter. But we are not talking about that here - the question is if one of them will be a top-3 player in the NBA *this coming year*, or maybe the year after that (when ppl are saying we might get AD). Maybe Curry will break Father Time, but my money is on Davis continuing to improve and Curry already having reached his peak.

If Curry simply falls back toward his career average TS of .62%, itís entirely possible Davis beats him even in TS%.

One final aside - your tone suggests that Iím all on my own in this evaluation. Clearly Iím not.

If he is so good, why has he only made the playoffs two times in his first six years in the league. By comparison, Kevin Garnett made the playoffs five out of his first six years in the league.

I'd agree that a truly great player - a top-five or top-three player - should rarely miss the playoffs.

Davis did make the playoffs last year, carrying a club that had some highly questionable roster construction. E'twaun Moore got more than 30 minutes a game on that team(!) Jrue Holiday was probably the second best player, and they also gave heavy minutes to a player that the miserable Chicago Bulls practically threw away - Nikola Mirotic. Davis dragged them into the playoffs.

If you want to argue about what was going on in the more distant past, I don't really have a dog in that hunt. We are talking about this coming year and the year after.  If we want to do a retrospective of players' early careers, it's not going to be favorable to Steph  - who didn't make an all-star team in any of his first four years and didn't get to the playoffs until year four, where he had a pedestrian TS% of 56% over 12 games. But none of this is relevant to the question we're talking about:  who is going to be better next year and the year after that.

I still haven't heard anything about how you evaluate the gap in these players' defensive abilities. Do you acknowledge that there is a very large difference between their abilities on that side of the ball?  Do you think Curry is such a vastly better offensive player that this doesn't matter?


I absolutely agree that Davis can impact the game on the defensive end, and that does have value. I consider Curry to be a pedestrian defensive player, but I think his size for the position allows him to make up for his deficiencies at times. From my perspective, I just don't value interior defense in today's game as much as I value high efficiency scoring and elite floor spacing.

Re: I believe Horford will make way for Davis
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2018, 12:23:39 AM »

Offline KungPoweChicken

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Iíd love having a top 3 player in the league here, but I donít know how realistic it is


Davis is not a top three player.
Who is then?

I'd have him over everyone not named LeBron. And if it was for a 4 year period, I might choose him over LeBron anyway

James, Curry, and Durant are unquestionably more valuable. Some other players are in the discussion as well.

Durant we could at least talk about. Curry is a hard no. Davis isnít just a great scorer, capable of averaging 30 through the playoffs. Heís also a great defensive rebounder (top ten NBA) and one of the best defensive players in the league (1st team all-NBA) who transforms the kind of defense a team is able to play. He allowed the Pellies to take advantage of Miroticís shooting because he erases Miroticís mistakes on defense. Also, Davis was 24 last year; thereís a pretty good chance heíll be even better this coming year.
Curry is a great shooter and a good creator on offense; but heís average on defense. If you consider both sides of the ball, Davis has to come out on top.



Funny how Curry is a no, considering he was a the best player on the greatest team of all time and the best player on the best team in the league for the last five years. He's also not just a great scorer, he is the best shooter of all time, and it's not even close. There has never been a player in the league before like Curry.

Curry was not the best player on GSW the past two years and itís not close. There is a reason KD won Finals MVP the past two years. He was the only player on the floor in LeBronís class.

Curry is a great shooter, I take nothing away from him. But shooting is only one part of the game. And heís at best an OK defender. AD can carry a team on both sides of the court in a way Curry simply cannot. Subtract Curry from GSW and they might still make the Finals. Subtract Durant and they do not, full stop.


The actually history suggests the contrary. That is, Curry has made the finals twice without Durant. Durant made the finals once without Curry and was swept, or lost in five, I believe. Not sure where you are getting ďCurry cannot make the finals without DurantĒ storyline.

Iím not talking about the past, or what Durant would do with his old OKC team. Iím talking about next year, with the league built the way it is. Remember above when I pointed out that KD won the last two finals MVPs? I watched those series, and he earned those awards. I also remember who won finals MVP three years ago - the last time Curry went to the finals without Durant. Curry did not win that award, or the series.

Curry is a great player. Itís not a knock to say heís a top 20 player in the NBA(!) but if you donít play above average defense, itís very very hard to be considered best in the league. Itís a two-way game. It is one reason, I think, he was third team all NBA this year. Not first. Not second. Third.


He has been the unquestioned best player on the best team for the past four/five years. You keep diminishing all of his greatness.



Statistically, it is very easy to make the argument that Curry is the best, most efficient offensive player of all time. Just look at his TS% numbers.

It is not a surprise why arguably the best offensive player of all time has won a substantial amount of games the past five years. It has everything to do with Curry and his style of play.

His TS% this past year was a godly 68%. If you donít realize how valuable that is and how that translates to winning you donít understand metrics.

ADís TS was .612 last year - which is hardly dog meat - and he was nearly defensive player of the year! And he was sixth in the NBA in DRB%. Curryís extra .06 in TS last year mattered, but the defensive gap between them is vast. We donít have great metrics to capture that. We do have VORP, though, which tries.  Davisí was higher than Curryís last year.

And donít overlook this - next year Davis will be 25 - still rising to his prime. Curry will be 30. Maybe when both their careers are over weíll look back and say Curryís star shined brighter. But we are not talking about that here - the question is if one of them will be a top-3 player in the NBA *this coming year*, or maybe the year after that (when ppl are saying we might get AD). Maybe Curry will break Father Time, but my money is on Davis continuing to improve and Curry already having reached his peak.

If Curry simply falls back toward his career average TS of .62%, itís entirely possible Davis beats him even in TS%.

One final aside - your tone suggests that Iím all on my own in this evaluation. Clearly Iím not.

If he is so good, why has he only made the playoffs two times in his first six years in the league. By comparison, Kevin Garnett made the playoffs five out of his first six years in the league.
Why did Curry only make it twice in his first 5 years?

This is a hilariously weak argument. That you're seriously arguing for Curry over Davis at this stage is laughable


In Curry's first six years in the league he played in 40 playoff games and was a NBA champion already. Davis has played in 13 playoff games through his first six years in the league. Are you making the argument that Davis is more of a winner than Curry? I sure hope not.

Re: I believe Horford will make way for Davis
« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2018, 12:39:24 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Iíd love having a top 3 player in the league here, but I donít know how realistic it is


Davis is not a top three player.
Who is then?

I'd have him over everyone not named LeBron. And if it was for a 4 year period, I might choose him over LeBron anyway

James, Curry, and Durant are unquestionably more valuable. Some other players are in the discussion as well.

Durant we could at least talk about. Curry is a hard no. Davis isnít just a great scorer, capable of averaging 30 through the playoffs. Heís also a great defensive rebounder (top ten NBA) and one of the best defensive players in the league (1st team all-NBA) who transforms the kind of defense a team is able to play. He allowed the Pellies to take advantage of Miroticís shooting because he erases Miroticís mistakes on defense. Also, Davis was 24 last year; thereís a pretty good chance heíll be even better this coming year.
Curry is a great shooter and a good creator on offense; but heís average on defense. If you consider both sides of the ball, Davis has to come out on top.



Funny how Curry is a no, considering he was a the best player on the greatest team of all time and the best player on the best team in the league for the last five years. He's also not just a great scorer, he is the best shooter of all time, and it's not even close. There has never been a player in the league before like Curry.

Curry was not the best player on GSW the past two years and itís not close. There is a reason KD won Finals MVP the past two years. He was the only player on the floor in LeBronís class.

Curry is a great shooter, I take nothing away from him. But shooting is only one part of the game. And heís at best an OK defender. AD can carry a team on both sides of the court in a way Curry simply cannot. Subtract Curry from GSW and they might still make the Finals. Subtract Durant and they do not, full stop.


The actually history suggests the contrary. That is, Curry has made the finals twice without Durant. Durant made the finals once without Curry and was swept, or lost in five, I believe. Not sure where you are getting ďCurry cannot make the finals without DurantĒ storyline.

Iím not talking about the past, or what Durant would do with his old OKC team. Iím talking about next year, with the league built the way it is. Remember above when I pointed out that KD won the last two finals MVPs? I watched those series, and he earned those awards. I also remember who won finals MVP three years ago - the last time Curry went to the finals without Durant. Curry did not win that award, or the series.

Curry is a great player. Itís not a knock to say heís a top 20 player in the NBA(!) but if you donít play above average defense, itís very very hard to be considered best in the league. Itís a two-way game. It is one reason, I think, he was third team all NBA this year. Not first. Not second. Third.


He has been the unquestioned best player on the best team for the past four/five years. You keep diminishing all of his greatness.



Statistically, it is very easy to make the argument that Curry is the best, most efficient offensive player of all time. Just look at his TS% numbers.

It is not a surprise why arguably the best offensive player of all time has won a substantial amount of games the past five years. It has everything to do with Curry and his style of play.

His TS% this past year was a godly 68%. If you donít realize how valuable that is and how that translates to winning you donít understand metrics.

ADís TS was .612 last year - which is hardly dog meat - and he was nearly defensive player of the year! And he was sixth in the NBA in DRB%. Curryís extra .06 in TS last year mattered, but the defensive gap between them is vast. We donít have great metrics to capture that. We do have VORP, though, which tries.  Davisí was higher than Curryís last year.

And donít overlook this - next year Davis will be 25 - still rising to his prime. Curry will be 30. Maybe when both their careers are over weíll look back and say Curryís star shined brighter. But we are not talking about that here - the question is if one of them will be a top-3 player in the NBA *this coming year*, or maybe the year after that (when ppl are saying we might get AD). Maybe Curry will break Father Time, but my money is on Davis continuing to improve and Curry already having reached his peak.

If Curry simply falls back toward his career average TS of .62%, itís entirely possible Davis beats him even in TS%.

One final aside - your tone suggests that Iím all on my own in this evaluation. Clearly Iím not.

If he is so good, why has he only made the playoffs two times in his first six years in the league. By comparison, Kevin Garnett made the playoffs five out of his first six years in the league.
Why did Curry only make it twice in his first 5 years?

This is a hilariously weak argument. That you're seriously arguing for Curry over Davis at this stage is laughable


In Curry's first six years in the league he played in 40 playoff games and was a NBA champion already. Davis has played in 13 playoff games through his first six years in the league. Are you making the argument that Davis is more of a winner than Curry? I sure hope not.
After all, playing playoff games is the only way to measure how good someone is. Draymond is clearly vastly superior to AD too!

I don't know how you can wilfully ignore all context, such as the management and coaching in New Orleans, which has contributed to AD not being in the playoffs. It doesn't make sense

Re: I believe Horford will make way for Davis
« Reply #43 on: August 13, 2018, 12:52:36 AM »

Offline KungPoweChicken

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Iíd love having a top 3 player in the league here, but I donít know how realistic it is


Davis is not a top three player.
Who is then?

I'd have him over everyone not named LeBron. And if it was for a 4 year period, I might choose him over LeBron anyway

James, Curry, and Durant are unquestionably more valuable. Some other players are in the discussion as well.

Durant we could at least talk about. Curry is a hard no. Davis isnít just a great scorer, capable of averaging 30 through the playoffs. Heís also a great defensive rebounder (top ten NBA) and one of the best defensive players in the league (1st team all-NBA) who transforms the kind of defense a team is able to play. He allowed the Pellies to take advantage of Miroticís shooting because he erases Miroticís mistakes on defense. Also, Davis was 24 last year; thereís a pretty good chance heíll be even better this coming year.
Curry is a great shooter and a good creator on offense; but heís average on defense. If you consider both sides of the ball, Davis has to come out on top.



Funny how Curry is a no, considering he was a the best player on the greatest team of all time and the best player on the best team in the league for the last five years. He's also not just a great scorer, he is the best shooter of all time, and it's not even close. There has never been a player in the league before like Curry.

Curry was not the best player on GSW the past two years and itís not close. There is a reason KD won Finals MVP the past two years. He was the only player on the floor in LeBronís class.

Curry is a great shooter, I take nothing away from him. But shooting is only one part of the game. And heís at best an OK defender. AD can carry a team on both sides of the court in a way Curry simply cannot. Subtract Curry from GSW and they might still make the Finals. Subtract Durant and they do not, full stop.


The actually history suggests the contrary. That is, Curry has made the finals twice without Durant. Durant made the finals once without Curry and was swept, or lost in five, I believe. Not sure where you are getting ďCurry cannot make the finals without DurantĒ storyline.

Iím not talking about the past, or what Durant would do with his old OKC team. Iím talking about next year, with the league built the way it is. Remember above when I pointed out that KD won the last two finals MVPs? I watched those series, and he earned those awards. I also remember who won finals MVP three years ago - the last time Curry went to the finals without Durant. Curry did not win that award, or the series.

Curry is a great player. Itís not a knock to say heís a top 20 player in the NBA(!) but if you donít play above average defense, itís very very hard to be considered best in the league. Itís a two-way game. It is one reason, I think, he was third team all NBA this year. Not first. Not second. Third.


He has been the unquestioned best player on the best team for the past four/five years. You keep diminishing all of his greatness.



Statistically, it is very easy to make the argument that Curry is the best, most efficient offensive player of all time. Just look at his TS% numbers.

It is not a surprise why arguably the best offensive player of all time has won a substantial amount of games the past five years. It has everything to do with Curry and his style of play.

His TS% this past year was a godly 68%. If you donít realize how valuable that is and how that translates to winning you donít understand metrics.

ADís TS was .612 last year - which is hardly dog meat - and he was nearly defensive player of the year! And he was sixth in the NBA in DRB%. Curryís extra .06 in TS last year mattered, but the defensive gap between them is vast. We donít have great metrics to capture that. We do have VORP, though, which tries.  Davisí was higher than Curryís last year.

And donít overlook this - next year Davis will be 25 - still rising to his prime. Curry will be 30. Maybe when both their careers are over weíll look back and say Curryís star shined brighter. But we are not talking about that here - the question is if one of them will be a top-3 player in the NBA *this coming year*, or maybe the year after that (when ppl are saying we might get AD). Maybe Curry will break Father Time, but my money is on Davis continuing to improve and Curry already having reached his peak.

If Curry simply falls back toward his career average TS of .62%, itís entirely possible Davis beats him even in TS%.

One final aside - your tone suggests that Iím all on my own in this evaluation. Clearly Iím not.

If he is so good, why has he only made the playoffs two times in his first six years in the league. By comparison, Kevin Garnett made the playoffs five out of his first six years in the league.
Why did Curry only make it twice in his first 5 years?

This is a hilariously weak argument. That you're seriously arguing for Curry over Davis at this stage is laughable


In Curry's first six years in the league he played in 40 playoff games and was a NBA champion already. Davis has played in 13 playoff games through his first six years in the league. Are you making the argument that Davis is more of a winner than Curry? I sure hope not.
After all, playing playoff games is the only way to measure how good someone is. Draymond is clearly vastly superior to AD too!

I don't know how you can wilfully ignore all context, such as the management and coaching in New Orleans, which has contributed to AD not being in the playoffs. It doesn't make sense


You are not adding much to the discussion. If you disagree, bring something to the table. Otherwise, you come across as a baiter.

Re: I believe Horford will make way for Davis
« Reply #44 on: August 13, 2018, 01:25:38 AM »

Offline ETNCeltics

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Davis was the best player in the league 2nd half of the season, which is why he was in the final 3 for mvp. Better than any of the aforementioned "better" players on the defensive end, by far. No one can match up with him, yet he can defend any big in the league. Silly to pretend otherwise.

OTOH, he won't be available anytime soon, so it's a moot point.