Author Topic: 2019 Celtics - Best team ever?  (Read 9497 times)

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Re: 2019 Celtics - Best team ever?
« Reply #75 on: August 06, 2018, 11:25:10 AM »

Offline JHTruth

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Moranis, you seem to be saying that Irving is both irreplaceable and not deserving a max. Am I misinterpreting what you are saying?
Not easily replaceable is not irreplaceable.  That said, I believe you have to pay Irving a max in this NBA, but I absolutely do not believe he is a franchise player in the mold of James, Durant, Leonard, Davis, etc. or for that matter even on the same level as Harden, Westbrook, Paul, George, Butler, etc.  He is just a terrible defender and really doesn't do anything aside from score well.  I think you can make a reasonable argument that Hayward is a better player than Irving and would be more responsible for the wins of the team going forward.  I think this is often overlooked, but Boston without Irving was only like a 4 worse win pace then they were with him and that includes the unsustainable win streak at the beginning of the year.  Boston has to offer Irving the max in this NBA, but I could easily see that being a contract the team comes to regret both for production and what it costs the team elsewhere.

I don't understand this post at all. You're saying, and I agree, that Kyrie is not a max player but we should go ahead and max him out anyway? I mean why? Why not at least explore if there's a trade market for him? Pretend the Knicks actually want to build a core of Kyrie and Durant, they're going to need to clear a ton of space. Kyrie's bird rights are leverage because very few teams are going to have the cap space to sign him for the $30mm he's going to want. Why do we need to just bend over and take it up the rear for Kyrie?

Re: 2019 Celtics - Best team ever?
« Reply #76 on: August 06, 2018, 12:05:45 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Moranis, you seem to be saying that Irving is both irreplaceable and not deserving a max. Am I misinterpreting what you are saying?
Not easily replaceable is not irreplaceable.  That said, I believe you have to pay Irving a max in this NBA, but I absolutely do not believe he is a franchise player in the mold of James, Durant, Leonard, Davis, etc. or for that matter even on the same level as Harden, Westbrook, Paul, George, Butler, etc.  He is just a terrible defender and really doesn't do anything aside from score well.  I think you can make a reasonable argument that Hayward is a better player than Irving and would be more responsible for the wins of the team going forward.  I think this is often overlooked, but Boston without Irving was only like a 4 worse win pace then they were with him and that includes the unsustainable win streak at the beginning of the year.  Boston has to offer Irving the max in this NBA, but I could easily see that being a contract the team comes to regret both for production and what it costs the team elsewhere.

I don't understand this post at all. You're saying, and I agree, that Kyrie is not a max player but we should go ahead and max him out anyway? I mean why? Why not at least explore if there's a trade market for him? Pretend the Knicks actually want to build a core of Kyrie and Durant, they're going to need to clear a ton of space. Kyrie's bird rights are leverage because very few teams are going to have the cap space to sign him for the $30mm he's going to want. Why do we need to just bend over and take it up the rear for Kyrie?
He said Kyrie isn't a "franchise player" which I'd agree with.  There are plenty of Max players who aren't franchise players.  Barring major injury, Kyrie is going to get Max next offseason.  There are going to be a lot more teams that will have Max cap space next offseason. 

Re: 2019 Celtics - Best team ever?
« Reply #77 on: August 06, 2018, 12:11:46 PM »

Offline JHTruth

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Moranis, you seem to be saying that Irving is both irreplaceable and not deserving a max. Am I misinterpreting what you are saying?
Not easily replaceable is not irreplaceable.  That said, I believe you have to pay Irving a max in this NBA, but I absolutely do not believe he is a franchise player in the mold of James, Durant, Leonard, Davis, etc. or for that matter even on the same level as Harden, Westbrook, Paul, George, Butler, etc.  He is just a terrible defender and really doesn't do anything aside from score well.  I think you can make a reasonable argument that Hayward is a better player than Irving and would be more responsible for the wins of the team going forward.  I think this is often overlooked, but Boston without Irving was only like a 4 worse win pace then they were with him and that includes the unsustainable win streak at the beginning of the year.  Boston has to offer Irving the max in this NBA, but I could easily see that being a contract the team comes to regret both for production and what it costs the team elsewhere.

I don't understand this post at all. You're saying, and I agree, that Kyrie is not a max player but we should go ahead and max him out anyway? I mean why? Why not at least explore if there's a trade market for him? Pretend the Knicks actually want to build a core of Kyrie and Durant, they're going to need to clear a ton of space. Kyrie's bird rights are leverage because very few teams are going to have the cap space to sign him for the $30mm he's going to want. Why do we need to just bend over and take it up the rear for Kyrie?
He said Kyrie isn't a "franchise player" which I'd agree with.  There are plenty of Max players who aren't franchise players.  Barring major injury, Kyrie is going to get Max next offseason.  There are going to be a lot more teams that will have Max cap space next offseason.

Such as who exactly? Which teams are serious threats to max out Kyrie next summer? I'll give the Nets. The Knicks won't likely have the $.

Re: 2019 Celtics - Best team ever?
« Reply #78 on: August 06, 2018, 12:42:42 PM »

Offline saltlover

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Moranis, you seem to be saying that Irving is both irreplaceable and not deserving a max. Am I misinterpreting what you are saying?
Not easily replaceable is not irreplaceable.  That said, I believe you have to pay Irving a max in this NBA, but I absolutely do not believe he is a franchise player in the mold of James, Durant, Leonard, Davis, etc. or for that matter even on the same level as Harden, Westbrook, Paul, George, Butler, etc.  He is just a terrible defender and really doesn't do anything aside from score well.  I think you can make a reasonable argument that Hayward is a better player than Irving and would be more responsible for the wins of the team going forward.  I think this is often overlooked, but Boston without Irving was only like a 4 worse win pace then they were with him and that includes the unsustainable win streak at the beginning of the year.  Boston has to offer Irving the max in this NBA, but I could easily see that being a contract the team comes to regret both for production and what it costs the team elsewhere.

I don't understand this post at all. You're saying, and I agree, that Kyrie is not a max player but we should go ahead and max him out anyway? I mean why? Why not at least explore if there's a trade market for him? Pretend the Knicks actually want to build a core of Kyrie and Durant, they're going to need to clear a ton of space. Kyrie's bird rights are leverage because very few teams are going to have the cap space to sign him for the $30mm he's going to want. Why do we need to just bend over and take it up the rear for Kyrie?
He said Kyrie isn't a "franchise player" which I'd agree with.  There are plenty of Max players who aren't franchise players.  Barring major injury, Kyrie is going to get Max next offseason.  There are going to be a lot more teams that will have Max cap space next offseason.

Such as who exactly? Which teams are serious threats to max out Kyrie next summer? I'll give the Nets. The Knicks won't likely have the $.

The Clippers certainly will have the money, the thirst for a star, and room in their backcourt.  The Mavericks will have 2 of the 3, and I frankly don’t think Dennis Smith Jr. would block the Mavs from going after Kyrie.  Indiana will be awash in cap room (over $50 million even when including the cap hold for Myles Turner).  Utah can pretty easily make the space and has an opening with Rubio’s contract coming off the books (and it’s very flat out there, so it could be a good fit for Kyrie).  Then there are a host of usual suspect teams (Chicago, Atlanta, Orlando, Sacramento) that will have the cap space and are always an existential threat as a team that will make a max offer.

Kyrie will have multiple teams offering him a max that are a viable alternative from Boston, unless he misses a majority of the season (and even then I think he gets a max offer from someone like Orlando).

Re: 2019 Celtics - Best team ever?
« Reply #79 on: August 06, 2018, 12:50:15 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Moranis, you seem to be saying that Irving is both irreplaceable and not deserving a max. Am I misinterpreting what you are saying?
Not easily replaceable is not irreplaceable.  That said, I believe you have to pay Irving a max in this NBA, but I absolutely do not believe he is a franchise player in the mold of James, Durant, Leonard, Davis, etc. or for that matter even on the same level as Harden, Westbrook, Paul, George, Butler, etc.  He is just a terrible defender and really doesn't do anything aside from score well.  I think you can make a reasonable argument that Hayward is a better player than Irving and would be more responsible for the wins of the team going forward.  I think this is often overlooked, but Boston without Irving was only like a 4 worse win pace then they were with him and that includes the unsustainable win streak at the beginning of the year.  Boston has to offer Irving the max in this NBA, but I could easily see that being a contract the team comes to regret both for production and what it costs the team elsewhere.

I don't understand this post at all. You're saying, and I agree, that Kyrie is not a max player but we should go ahead and max him out anyway? I mean why? Why not at least explore if there's a trade market for him? Pretend the Knicks actually want to build a core of Kyrie and Durant, they're going to need to clear a ton of space. Kyrie's bird rights are leverage because very few teams are going to have the cap space to sign him for the $30mm he's going to want. Why do we need to just bend over and take it up the rear for Kyrie?
He said Kyrie isn't a "franchise player" which I'd agree with.  There are plenty of Max players who aren't franchise players.  Barring major injury, Kyrie is going to get Max next offseason.  There are going to be a lot more teams that will have Max cap space next offseason.

Such as who exactly? Which teams are serious threats to max out Kyrie next summer? I'll give the Nets. The Knicks won't likely have the $.

The Clippers certainly will have the money, the thirst for a star, and room in their backcourt.  The Mavericks will have 2 of the 3, and I frankly don’t think Dennis Smith Jr. would block the Mavs from going after Kyrie.  Indiana will be awash in cap room (over $50 million even when including the cap hold for Myles Turner).  Utah can pretty easily make the space and has an opening with Rubio’s contract coming off the books (and it’s very flat out there, so it could be a good fit for Kyrie).  Then there are a host of usual suspect teams (Chicago, Atlanta, Orlando, Sacramento) that will have the cap space and are always an existential threat as a team that will make a max offer.

Kyrie will have multiple teams offering him a max that are a viable alternative from Boston, unless he misses a majority of the season (and even then I think he gets a max offer from someone like Orlando).
Don't forget Philly.  They can pretty easily make the room (even without getting rid of Covington who has a non-guaranteed deal). 
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Re: 2019 Celtics - Best team ever?
« Reply #80 on: August 06, 2018, 01:00:11 PM »

Offline saltlover

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Moranis, you seem to be saying that Irving is both irreplaceable and not deserving a max. Am I misinterpreting what you are saying?
Not easily replaceable is not irreplaceable.  That said, I believe you have to pay Irving a max in this NBA, but I absolutely do not believe he is a franchise player in the mold of James, Durant, Leonard, Davis, etc. or for that matter even on the same level as Harden, Westbrook, Paul, George, Butler, etc.  He is just a terrible defender and really doesn't do anything aside from score well.  I think you can make a reasonable argument that Hayward is a better player than Irving and would be more responsible for the wins of the team going forward.  I think this is often overlooked, but Boston without Irving was only like a 4 worse win pace then they were with him and that includes the unsustainable win streak at the beginning of the year.  Boston has to offer Irving the max in this NBA, but I could easily see that being a contract the team comes to regret both for production and what it costs the team elsewhere.

I don't understand this post at all. You're saying, and I agree, that Kyrie is not a max player but we should go ahead and max him out anyway? I mean why? Why not at least explore if there's a trade market for him? Pretend the Knicks actually want to build a core of Kyrie and Durant, they're going to need to clear a ton of space. Kyrie's bird rights are leverage because very few teams are going to have the cap space to sign him for the $30mm he's going to want. Why do we need to just bend over and take it up the rear for Kyrie?
He said Kyrie isn't a "franchise player" which I'd agree with.  There are plenty of Max players who aren't franchise players.  Barring major injury, Kyrie is going to get Max next offseason.  There are going to be a lot more teams that will have Max cap space next offseason.

Such as who exactly? Which teams are serious threats to max out Kyrie next summer? I'll give the Nets. The Knicks won't likely have the $.

The Clippers certainly will have the money, the thirst for a star, and room in their backcourt.  The Mavericks will have 2 of the 3, and I frankly don’t think Dennis Smith Jr. would block the Mavs from going after Kyrie.  Indiana will be awash in cap room (over $50 million even when including the cap hold for Myles Turner).  Utah can pretty easily make the space and has an opening with Rubio’s contract coming off the books (and it’s very flat out there, so it could be a good fit for Kyrie).  Then there are a host of usual suspect teams (Chicago, Atlanta, Orlando, Sacramento) that will have the cap space and are always an existential threat as a team that will make a max offer.

Kyrie will have multiple teams offering him a max that are a viable alternative from Boston, unless he misses a majority of the season (and even then I think he gets a max offer from someone like Orlando).
Don't forget Philly.  They can pretty easily make the room (even without getting rid of Covington who has a non-guaranteed deal).

I intentionally omitted them because every thread always descends into a discussion about Philly, and I hope people would acknowledge the other half-dozen teams that could logically pursue him.

Re: 2019 Celtics - Best team ever?
« Reply #81 on: August 06, 2018, 01:05:57 PM »

Offline JHTruth

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Moranis, you seem to be saying that Irving is both irreplaceable and not deserving a max. Am I misinterpreting what you are saying?
Not easily replaceable is not irreplaceable.  That said, I believe you have to pay Irving a max in this NBA, but I absolutely do not believe he is a franchise player in the mold of James, Durant, Leonard, Davis, etc. or for that matter even on the same level as Harden, Westbrook, Paul, George, Butler, etc.  He is just a terrible defender and really doesn't do anything aside from score well.  I think you can make a reasonable argument that Hayward is a better player than Irving and would be more responsible for the wins of the team going forward.  I think this is often overlooked, but Boston without Irving was only like a 4 worse win pace then they were with him and that includes the unsustainable win streak at the beginning of the year.  Boston has to offer Irving the max in this NBA, but I could easily see that being a contract the team comes to regret both for production and what it costs the team elsewhere.

I don't understand this post at all. You're saying, and I agree, that Kyrie is not a max player but we should go ahead and max him out anyway? I mean why? Why not at least explore if there's a trade market for him? Pretend the Knicks actually want to build a core of Kyrie and Durant, they're going to need to clear a ton of space. Kyrie's bird rights are leverage because very few teams are going to have the cap space to sign him for the $30mm he's going to want. Why do we need to just bend over and take it up the rear for Kyrie?
He said Kyrie isn't a "franchise player" which I'd agree with.  There are plenty of Max players who aren't franchise players.  Barring major injury, Kyrie is going to get Max next offseason.  There are going to be a lot more teams that will have Max cap space next offseason.

Such as who exactly? Which teams are serious threats to max out Kyrie next summer? I'll give the Nets. The Knicks won't likely have the $.

The Clippers certainly will have the money, the thirst for a star, and room in their backcourt.  The Mavericks will have 2 of the 3, and I frankly don’t think Dennis Smith Jr. would block the Mavs from going after Kyrie.  Indiana will be awash in cap room (over $50 million even when including the cap hold for Myles Turner).  Utah can pretty easily make the space and has an opening with Rubio’s contract coming off the books (and it’s very flat out there, so it could be a good fit for Kyrie).  Then there are a host of usual suspect teams (Chicago, Atlanta, Orlando, Sacramento) that will have the cap space and are always an existential threat as a team that will make a max offer.

Kyrie will have multiple teams offering him a max that are a viable alternative from Boston, unless he misses a majority of the season (and even then I think he gets a max offer from someone like Orlando).

I see slim freaking pickens if I'm Kyrie. Clippers? Really? LOL

Philly is the only team, and that's if they totally give up on Fultz..

Re: 2019 Celtics - Best team ever?
« Reply #82 on: August 06, 2018, 01:17:22 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Moranis, you seem to be saying that Irving is both irreplaceable and not deserving a max. Am I misinterpreting what you are saying?
Not easily replaceable is not irreplaceable.  That said, I believe you have to pay Irving a max in this NBA, but I absolutely do not believe he is a franchise player in the mold of James, Durant, Leonard, Davis, etc. or for that matter even on the same level as Harden, Westbrook, Paul, George, Butler, etc.  He is just a terrible defender and really doesn't do anything aside from score well.  I think you can make a reasonable argument that Hayward is a better player than Irving and would be more responsible for the wins of the team going forward.  I think this is often overlooked, but Boston without Irving was only like a 4 worse win pace then they were with him and that includes the unsustainable win streak at the beginning of the year.  Boston has to offer Irving the max in this NBA, but I could easily see that being a contract the team comes to regret both for production and what it costs the team elsewhere.

I don't understand this post at all. You're saying, and I agree, that Kyrie is not a max player but we should go ahead and max him out anyway? I mean why? Why not at least explore if there's a trade market for him? Pretend the Knicks actually want to build a core of Kyrie and Durant, they're going to need to clear a ton of space. Kyrie's bird rights are leverage because very few teams are going to have the cap space to sign him for the $30mm he's going to want. Why do we need to just bend over and take it up the rear for Kyrie?
He said Kyrie isn't a "franchise player" which I'd agree with.  There are plenty of Max players who aren't franchise players.  Barring major injury, Kyrie is going to get Max next offseason.  There are going to be a lot more teams that will have Max cap space next offseason.

Such as who exactly? Which teams are serious threats to max out Kyrie next summer? I'll give the Nets. The Knicks won't likely have the $.

The Clippers certainly will have the money, the thirst for a star, and room in their backcourt.  The Mavericks will have 2 of the 3, and I frankly don’t think Dennis Smith Jr. would block the Mavs from going after Kyrie.  Indiana will be awash in cap room (over $50 million even when including the cap hold for Myles Turner).  Utah can pretty easily make the space and has an opening with Rubio’s contract coming off the books (and it’s very flat out there, so it could be a good fit for Kyrie).  Then there are a host of usual suspect teams (Chicago, Atlanta, Orlando, Sacramento) that will have the cap space and are always an existential threat as a team that will make a max offer.

Kyrie will have multiple teams offering him a max that are a viable alternative from Boston, unless he misses a majority of the season (and even then I think he gets a max offer from someone like Orlando).
Don't forget Philly.  They can pretty easily make the room (even without getting rid of Covington who has a non-guaranteed deal).
Convington doesn't have a non-guaranteed deal.  But they'll have close to 40M anyway. 

Re: 2019 Celtics - Best team ever?
« Reply #83 on: August 06, 2018, 01:35:44 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Moranis, you seem to be saying that Irving is both irreplaceable and not deserving a max. Am I misinterpreting what you are saying?
Not easily replaceable is not irreplaceable.  That said, I believe you have to pay Irving a max in this NBA, but I absolutely do not believe he is a franchise player in the mold of James, Durant, Leonard, Davis, etc. or for that matter even on the same level as Harden, Westbrook, Paul, George, Butler, etc.  He is just a terrible defender and really doesn't do anything aside from score well.  I think you can make a reasonable argument that Hayward is a better player than Irving and would be more responsible for the wins of the team going forward.  I think this is often overlooked, but Boston without Irving was only like a 4 worse win pace then they were with him and that includes the unsustainable win streak at the beginning of the year.  Boston has to offer Irving the max in this NBA, but I could easily see that being a contract the team comes to regret both for production and what it costs the team elsewhere.

I don't understand this post at all. You're saying, and I agree, that Kyrie is not a max player but we should go ahead and max him out anyway? I mean why? Why not at least explore if there's a trade market for him? Pretend the Knicks actually want to build a core of Kyrie and Durant, they're going to need to clear a ton of space. Kyrie's bird rights are leverage because very few teams are going to have the cap space to sign him for the $30mm he's going to want. Why do we need to just bend over and take it up the rear for Kyrie?
He said Kyrie isn't a "franchise player" which I'd agree with.  There are plenty of Max players who aren't franchise players.  Barring major injury, Kyrie is going to get Max next offseason.  There are going to be a lot more teams that will have Max cap space next offseason.

Such as who exactly? Which teams are serious threats to max out Kyrie next summer? I'll give the Nets. The Knicks won't likely have the $.

The Clippers certainly will have the money, the thirst for a star, and room in their backcourt.  The Mavericks will have 2 of the 3, and I frankly don’t think Dennis Smith Jr. would block the Mavs from going after Kyrie.  Indiana will be awash in cap room (over $50 million even when including the cap hold for Myles Turner).  Utah can pretty easily make the space and has an opening with Rubio’s contract coming off the books (and it’s very flat out there, so it could be a good fit for Kyrie).  Then there are a host of usual suspect teams (Chicago, Atlanta, Orlando, Sacramento) that will have the cap space and are always an existential threat as a team that will make a max offer.

Kyrie will have multiple teams offering him a max that are a viable alternative from Boston, unless he misses a majority of the season (and even then I think he gets a max offer from someone like Orlando).
Don't forget Philly.  They can pretty easily make the room (even without getting rid of Covington who has a non-guaranteed deal).
Convington doesn't have a non-guaranteed deal.  But they'll have close to 40M anyway.
spotrac shows it as non-guaranteed (or at least partially non-guaranteed) so I just used that, but I guess it doesn't make sense that it would be non-guaranteed.
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