Author Topic: Is Westbrook destined to become the best player to never win a title?  (Read 7686 times)

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Re: Is Westbrook destined to become the best player to never win a title?
« Reply #45 on: July 29, 2018, 10:57:55 AM »

Offline Androslav

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Chris Paul is a better PG of Westbrook’s Era to not win a title.
Steve Nash too.
And of the generation before, Stockton
+ Penny + Lillard
Much more talented and team friendly guys.
I'm still sad about what could have been with Penny. Poor guy. 20/7/4/2 shooting over 50% from the field over back-to-back seasons as a 23-24 year old is crazy.

Really just goes to show how Westbrook is probably fighting to be in the top 8-10 for players who never won a ring

Yes, but all the same you can’t put Penny over Westbrook all-time.  Getting on the court is a skill unto itself, and Westbrook through age 29 has already played a half season’s worth of games more than Penny did for his career that ended at age 36.  Even if we take for granted that Penny was better than Russ when healthy, which is debatable, Russ’ health completely wins the rest of the argument barring something catastrophic in the next year or so.
Oh yeah, I definitely don't think you can rank Penny above RW. Just sort of letting my tangential thoughts run wild on this one, lol.

I also dunno about Lillard over Westbrook
I would much rather have Penny for 5 years and then have 40 mil of extra cap space to build around. But we value things differently.

Lillard is a better leader by miles in my book, better scorer, better off ball, IMO will age better too even though he is smaller.

EDIT:
If we rename the thread to:
Westbrook is destined to become the best PAID player to never win a title
He could be the one.
18-19 - $35,350,000
19-20 - $38,178,000
20-21 - $41,006,000
21-22 - $43,848,000
22-23 - $46,662,000

Keep in mind that he is extremely reliant on his physicality, like say Dwight Howard (who BTW got his team to finals and was a top 5 player in the league for a few years), this contact could be the mother of all albatrosses.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 01:59:35 PM by Androslav »
"The joy of the balling under the rims."

Re: Is Westbrook destined to become the best player to never win a title?
« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2018, 11:01:07 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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He won't surpass Malone or Barkley.

And personally I'd rather have peak Steve Nash than peak Westbrook. 
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Re: Is Westbrook destined to become the best player to never win a title?
« Reply #47 on: July 29, 2018, 12:52:37 PM »

Offline coco

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Westbrook just strikes me as one of the most overrated, stat chasing players of all time...

I think history might remember him as such, but I personally wouldn't feel he is the "best player" to never win a title.

This ^

Re: Is Westbrook destined to become the best player to never win a title?
« Reply #48 on: July 29, 2018, 03:54:26 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Surprised no one has mentioned the Ice Man. George Gervin has to definitely be on this list above many that have been mentioned.

Re: Is Westbrook destined to become the best player to never win a title?
« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2018, 08:31:28 AM »

Offline Moranis

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He won't surpass Malone or Barkley.

And personally I'd rather have peak Steve Nash than peak Westbrook.
I'm really not so sure he won't end up with a better career than Malone or Barkley, especially statistically.  His peak has easily surpassed Nash, who is likely the most overrated player in NBA history. 
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Re: Is Westbrook destined to become the best player to never win a title?
« Reply #50 on: July 30, 2018, 08:42:56 AM »

Offline gouki88

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He won't surpass Malone or Barkley.

And personally I'd rather have peak Steve Nash than peak Westbrook.
I'm really not so sure he won't end up with a better career than Malone or Barkley, especially statistically.  His peak has easily surpassed Nash, who is likely the most overrated player in NBA history.
It is more than safe to say he will never eclipse Malone statistically. 10 years in a row of 25+ and 10, not to mention his passing, all the while missing merely four games at around 38mpg. Those are insane numbers, all the while consistently winning.

Furthermore, to call Nash the likely most overrated player in NBA history in a discussion where the OP asked if Westbrook could become the best player to never win a title is pretty weird
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Is Westbrook destined to become the best player to never win a title?
« Reply #51 on: July 30, 2018, 08:54:01 AM »

Offline moiso

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He won't surpass Malone or Barkley.

And personally I'd rather have peak Steve Nash than peak Westbrook.
I'm really not so sure he won't end up with a better career than Malone or Barkley, especially statistically.  His peak has easily surpassed Nash, who is likely the most overrated player in NBA history.
The NBA is a 5 on 5 league.  I'd take Nash on my team any day over Westbrook.  Of course Westbrook puts up higher volume/less efficient numbers than Nash.  It doesn't make him a better 5 on 5 player. 

Re: Is Westbrook destined to become the best player to never win a title?
« Reply #52 on: July 30, 2018, 09:01:12 AM »

Offline Moranis

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He won't surpass Malone or Barkley.

And personally I'd rather have peak Steve Nash than peak Westbrook.
I'm really not so sure he won't end up with a better career than Malone or Barkley, especially statistically.  His peak has easily surpassed Nash, who is likely the most overrated player in NBA history.
It is more than safe to say he will never eclipse Malone statistically. 10 years in a row of 25+ and 10, not to mention his passing, all the while missing merely four games at around 38mpg. Those are insane numbers, all the while consistently winning.

Furthermore, to call Nash the likely most overrated player in NBA history in a discussion where the OP asked if Westbrook could become the best player to never win a title is pretty weird
Westbrook already has nearly 1000 more assists than Malone.  He should catch him in steals as well.  Now sure he isn't going to catch the PF in rebounds nor total points (given Malone's longevity), but when you factor the complete game in (like consecutive seasons finishing in the top 10 in ppg, rpg, apg and he should probably do that again), I think there will be an argument that Westbrook will have a better statistical career than Malone when all is said and done (Westbrook isn't even 30 yet so presumably he has 3 more years of true prime and then a few more years after that of still solid play).
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Re: Is Westbrook destined to become the best player to never win a title?
« Reply #53 on: July 30, 2018, 09:09:12 AM »

Offline Moranis

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He won't surpass Malone or Barkley.

And personally I'd rather have peak Steve Nash than peak Westbrook.
I'm really not so sure he won't end up with a better career than Malone or Barkley, especially statistically.  His peak has easily surpassed Nash, who is likely the most overrated player in NBA history.
The NBA is a 5 on 5 league.  I'd take Nash on my team any day over Westbrook.  Of course Westbrook puts up higher volume/less efficient numbers than Nash.  It doesn't make him a better 5 on 5 player.
You'd take the guy that can't guard a chair over the at least credible defender.  Nash is the worst defending MVP ever and it isn't close (yes I'm including Derrick Rose and James Harden).  The Suns never won because Nash couldn't stop anyone in crunch time.  He couldn't take over games offensively either to try to make up for the defensive inability.  And Nash turned the ball over at a rate far exceeding the rate that Westbrook turns it over so you can't even use that against Westbrook like you could with someone like Stockton (Nash only has 2 seasons below Westbrook's career TOV% average and has a career average nearly 4% higher than Westbrook).  Even AST% significantly favors Westbrook.  All of the advanced metrics like VORP, BPM, WS, etc. also favor Westbrook because he is significantly better on the defensive side of the ball.  Nash was a much better shooter than Westbrook, but that is it.  Everything else, Westbrook has been better and it isn't close.  The fact that a number of people in this thread think it is arguable, is why Nash is the most overrated player in NBA history.
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Re: Is Westbrook destined to become the best player to never win a title?
« Reply #54 on: July 30, 2018, 09:16:59 AM »

Offline johnnygreen

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I always find it amusing at how many people view Westbrook as a stat padding player, but never seem to mention James Harden, who may be the most selfish player that I have ever seen.

As for the best player to never win a championship, I think that title goes to Durant. I know it, you know it, he knows it. A participation trophy does not make you a champion.

Re: Is Westbrook destined to become the best player to never win a title?
« Reply #55 on: July 30, 2018, 09:26:24 AM »

Offline gouki88

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I always find it amusing at how many people view Westbrook as a stat padding player, but never seem to mention James Harden, who may be the most selfish player that I have ever seen.

As for the best player to never win a championship, I think that title goes to Durant. I know it, you know it, he knows it. A participation trophy does not make you a champion.
Malone is still better than Durant ;)

'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
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PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Is Westbrook destined to become the best player to never win a title?
« Reply #56 on: July 30, 2018, 09:26:42 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Watching a former Rondostan cape so hard for Westbrook hurts, I didn't think I cared anymore but I do.  :laugh: :laugh:

Re: Is Westbrook destined to become the best player to never win a title?
« Reply #57 on: July 30, 2018, 09:30:30 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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He won't surpass Malone or Barkley.

And personally I'd rather have peak Steve Nash than peak Westbrook.
Me too. Westbrook would be better on a team devoid of finishers, shooters, or people who want to touch the ball ever. But Nash with some pieces around him meant you had the best offense in the NBA.

Not sure how much comparative advantage would be lost with the new small ball and faster pace era though, that'd be one counter-argument I don't have an answer for.

Re: Is Westbrook destined to become the best player to never win a title?
« Reply #58 on: July 30, 2018, 09:45:00 AM »

Offline johnnygreen

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He won't surpass Malone or Barkley.

And personally I'd rather have peak Steve Nash than peak Westbrook.
I'm really not so sure he won't end up with a better career than Malone or Barkley, especially statistically.  His peak has easily surpassed Nash, who is likely the most overrated player in NBA history.
The NBA is a 5 on 5 league.  I'd take Nash on my team any day over Westbrook.  Of course Westbrook puts up higher volume/less efficient numbers than Nash.  It doesn't make him a better 5 on 5 player.
You'd take the guy that can't guard a chair over the at least credible defender.  Nash is the worst defending MVP ever and it isn't close (yes I'm including Derrick Rose and James Harden).  The Suns never won because Nash couldn't stop anyone in crunch time.  He couldn't take over games offensively either to try to make up for the defensive inability.  And Nash turned the ball over at a rate far exceeding the rate that Westbrook turns it over so you can't even use that against Westbrook like you could with someone like Stockton (Nash only has 2 seasons below Westbrook's career TOV% average and has a career average nearly 4% higher than Westbrook).  Even AST% significantly favors Westbrook.  All of the advanced metrics like VORP, BPM, WS, etc. also favor Westbrook because he is significantly better on the defensive side of the ball.  Nash was a much better shooter than Westbrook, but that is it.  Everything else, Westbrook has been better and it isn't close.  The fact that a number of people in this thread think it is arguable, is why Nash is the most overrated player in NBA history.


Steve Nash probably wouldn't have even been brought up in this thread if the referees didn't fix the Suns-Spurs semi-finals series during the 2006-2007 season. That Suns team could have easily won the title that season, if the refs actually did their job correctly. FYI, Tim Donaghy thought the the whole series was officiated poorly.

I thought this article was fairly interesting: https://clutchpoints.com/2007-phoenix-suns-get-robbed-nba-championship/

Re: Is Westbrook destined to become the best player to never win a title?
« Reply #59 on: July 30, 2018, 11:03:42 AM »

Offline Fan from VT

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He won't surpass Malone or Barkley.

And personally I'd rather have peak Steve Nash than peak Westbrook.
I'm really not so sure he won't end up with a better career than Malone or Barkley, especially statistically.  His peak has easily surpassed Nash, who is likely the most overrated player in NBA history.
It is more than safe to say he will never eclipse Malone statistically. 10 years in a row of 25+ and 10, not to mention his passing, all the while missing merely four games at around 38mpg. Those are insane numbers, all the while consistently winning.

Furthermore, to call Nash the likely most overrated player in NBA history in a discussion where the OP asked if Westbrook could become the best player to never win a title is pretty weird
Westbrook already has nearly 1000 more assists than Malone.  He should catch him in steals as well.  Now sure he isn't going to catch the PF in rebounds nor total points (given Malone's longevity), but when you factor the complete game in (like consecutive seasons finishing in the top 10 in ppg, rpg, apg and he should probably do that again), I think there will be an argument that Westbrook will have a better statistical career than Malone when all is said and done (Westbrook isn't even 30 yet so presumably he has 3 more years of true prime and then a few more years after that of still solid play).

I personally think Karl Malone is the biggest victim of the "Championships are the Be-All End-All" era of basketball. I think a lot of it is also due to Bill Simmons / Sportsguy's influence in NBA writing and the fact he enjoyed making Malone the butt of many jokes.


But this is incredible:

19 seasons, and still AVERAGED 25/10/3.6.
.577 career TS%
Made the playoffs 19 times.
2 x MVP
14 x All-Star
3 x All-Defense 1st team (1 x 2nd team)
14 x All-NBA including 11 x 1st team

Malone was amazing. Westbrook is great, but the fact Malone did what he did with such efficient shooting while also being an All-Defense type of player will make it essentially impossible for Westbrook to catch him.