Author Topic: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida  (Read 3623 times)

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Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #120 on: August 14, 2018, 01:54:01 PM »

Offline blink

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Retreating where?

Is he taking a couple steps back to try to diffuse the situation and hope you put your gun away to he continues the assault?

Is he backing up to his car to get his gun?

He ran after being shot... why didn't he do that before getting shot?

I think the problem is that some of you guys have an overall negative opinion towards gun owners, especially concealed carry owners. Your personal opinion of someone's belief system doesn't apply to case law. Case in point: I don't like guns, I don't own a gun, and I would love to live in a world without guns... but I'm trying to evaluate this case objectively.

It's easy to dissect the video frame by frame to figure out if he should or shouldn't have shot the man. Unfortunately this isn't football. He's most likely going to get the benefit of the doubt because fear is subjective and he was violently assaulted. You're going to have to find 12 people in Florida (not Massachusetts) that don't think that this man shot out of fear. It's a very tall order.

I'm a gun owner (including an AK-47). I'm a former concealed carry permit holder (not needed in NH anymore - we're constitutional carry now). I strongly support gun rights for all citizens, and (generally speaking) support stand your ground laws.

Your theory about people's motivations for their opinions is simply off base.

Being shoved to the ground is no defense for murder, that is absolutely insane. No responsible gun owner would ever claim this is appropriate.

100% agree.  TP.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #121 on: August 14, 2018, 01:56:28 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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Retreating where?

Is he taking a couple steps back to try to diffuse the situation and hope you put your gun away to he continues the assault?

Is he backing up to his car to get his gun?

He ran after being shot... why didn't he do that before getting shot?

I think the problem is that some of you guys have an overall negative opinion towards gun owners, especially concealed carry owners. Your personal opinion of someone's belief system doesn't apply to case law. Case in point: I don't like guns, I don't own a gun, and I would love to live in a world without guns... but I'm trying to evaluate this case objectively.

It's easy to dissect the video frame by frame to figure out if he should or shouldn't have shot the man. Unfortunately this isn't football. He's most likely going to get the benefit of the doubt because fear is subjective and he was violently assaulted. You're going to have to find 12 people in Florida (not Massachusetts) that don't think that this man shot out of fear. It's a very tall order.
poor assumption on your part.

the discussion has been solely on what the two people did in this situation and whether Stand Your Ground has applicability here.

If it was clear:
- the shover was pursuing the guy on the ground
- the shover wasn't retreating at all even after the gun was drawn
- the shooter delayed shooting the shover -- possibly hoping to diffuse the situation or at least offer any indication that he wasn't looking for an excuse to pull a gun and shoot someone
- the shooter tried to allow the shover to leave the scene
- the shooter tried to have the shover stay in place so that the police could be contacted to address the situation
then there'd be something to perhaps lend support to the shooter in this situation other than trying to fit a problematic law to fit this situation but none of those things happened.

This situation screams out that an obsessive **** went looking for trouble, such that he'd get a chance to use his gun, and found it.  It's not an anti-gun sentiment/bias but an anti-**** bias.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #122 on: August 14, 2018, 02:04:28 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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Retreating where?

Is he taking a couple steps back to try to diffuse the situation and hope you put your gun away to he continues the assault?

Is he backing up to his car to get his gun?

He ran after being shot... why didn't he do that before getting shot?

I think the problem is that some of you guys have an overall negative opinion towards gun owners, especially concealed carry owners. Your personal opinion of someone's belief system doesn't apply to case law. Case in point: I don't like guns, I don't own a gun, and I would love to live in a world without guns... but I'm trying to evaluate this case objectively.

It's easy to dissect the video frame by frame to figure out if he should or shouldn't have shot the man. Unfortunately this isn't football. He's most likely going to get the benefit of the doubt because fear is subjective and he was violently assaulted. You're going to have to find 12 people in Florida (not Massachusetts) that don't think that this man shot out of fear. It's a very tall order.

I'm a gun owner (including an AK-47). I'm a former concealed carry permit holder (not needed in NH anymore - we're constitutional carry now). I strongly support gun rights for all citizens, and (generally speaking) support stand your ground laws.

Your theory about people's motivations for their opinions is simply off base.

Being shoved to the ground is no defense for murder, that is absolutely insane. No responsible gun owner would ever claim this is appropriate.

100% agree.  TP.
co-signed.  TP

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #123 on: August 14, 2018, 02:23:29 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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No way in hell is that stand your ground. I don't know what the guy was thinking if you go after a woman for anything like he was a random guy is likely to step in and push that guy back or tell him to back down. All men know that.

As for MA law you are liable if you instigate any confrontation that results in a shooting or even the drawing of your weapon. So he would get manslaughter here and even if he didnt shoot, in MA just pulling out your weapon after he had started a confrontation he would lose his LTC.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 03:53:15 PM by Csfan1984 »
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Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #124 on: August 14, 2018, 04:28:35 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Retreating where?

Is he taking a couple steps back to try to diffuse the situation and hope you put your gun away to he continues the assault?

Is he backing up to his car to get his gun?

He ran after being shot... why didn't he do that before getting shot?

I think the problem is that some of you guys have an overall negative opinion towards gun owners, especially concealed carry owners. Your personal opinion of someone's belief system doesn't apply to case law. Case in point: I don't like guns, I don't own a gun, and I would love to live in a world without guns... but I'm trying to evaluate this case objectively.

It's easy to dissect the video frame by frame to figure out if he should or shouldn't have shot the man. Unfortunately this isn't football. He's most likely going to get the benefit of the doubt because fear is subjective and he was violently assaulted. You're going to have to find 12 people in Florida (not Massachusetts) that don't think that this man shot out of fear. It's a very tall order.

I'm a gun owner (including an AK-47). I'm a former concealed carry permit holder (not needed in NH anymore - we're constitutional carry now). I strongly support gun rights for all citizens, and (generally speaking) support stand your ground laws.

Your theory about people's motivations for their opinions is simply off base.

Being shoved to the ground is no defense for murder, that is absolutely insane. No responsible gun owner would ever claim this is appropriate.

100% agree.  TP.
co-signed.  TP

Yeah, I donít own a gun, but my father owned a gun shop, and my family has used guns both for hunting and in the military for several generations. I still think thatís manslaughter at best, probably murder.


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Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #125 on: August 14, 2018, 05:24:49 PM »

Offline ManUp

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I don't own a gun, but I plan to in the near future.

I believe anyone who thinks getting pushed to the ground warrants killing someone shouldn't own a gun.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #126 on: August 14, 2018, 05:39:14 PM »

Online nickagneta

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Perhaps states that have the Stand Your Ground laws should make it mandatory to take a class on what the Stand Your Ground law is really all about and have the class teach confrontation resolution.

Yeah, I know that's stupid because most states with Stand Your Ground laws want less gun restriction laws not more but it sure seems like it would be a good idea.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 06:51:07 PM by nickagneta »

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #127 on: August 14, 2018, 05:55:56 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Retreating where?

Is he taking a couple steps back to try to diffuse the situation and hope you put your gun away to he continues the assault?

Is he backing up to his car to get his gun?

He ran after being shot... why didn't he do that before getting shot?

I think the problem is that some of you guys have an overall negative opinion towards gun owners, especially concealed carry owners. Your personal opinion of someone's belief system doesn't apply to case law. Case in point: I don't like guns, I don't own a gun, and I would love to live in a world without guns... but I'm trying to evaluate this case objectively.

It's easy to dissect the video frame by frame to figure out if he should or shouldn't have shot the man. Unfortunately this isn't football. He's most likely going to get the benefit of the doubt because fear is subjective and he was violently assaulted. You're going to have to find 12 people in Florida (not Massachusetts) that don't think that this man shot out of fear. It's a very tall order.

I'm a gun owner (including an AK-47). I'm a former concealed carry permit holder (not needed in NH anymore - we're constitutional carry now). I strongly support gun rights for all citizens, and (generally speaking) support stand your ground laws.

Your theory about people's motivations for their opinions is simply off base.

Being shoved to the ground is no defense for murder, that is absolutely insane. No responsible gun owner would ever claim this is appropriate.

100% agree.  TP.
co-signed.  TP

Yeah, I donít own a gun, but my father owned a gun shop, and my family has used guns both for hunting and in the military for several generations. I still think thatís manslaughter at best, probably murder.
Unless there is some other evidence besides the video or he has significant past incidents, I'll be a bit surprised if he's convicted of manslaughter.  The incident certainly doesn't justify a murder charge. 

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #128 on: August 14, 2018, 07:57:19 PM »

Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

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Man, what happened to the world? When I was growing up (my family before me), it was fight and see another day. Hell, you could fight someone one day and be friends the next! Take your butt whoopin and learn from it, whether it's learning how to fight better or learning to keep your mouth shut the next time! These days people initiate confrontations and play the victim when they get their butts handed to them and murder people when all the situation called for was going home and icing that bruised ego!

He'll get a slap on the wrist, it's not like he did something as egregious as firing a warning shot into the air to stop someone from beating him AGAIN!! A bullet to the roof is certainly worse than killing a retreating person. ::)
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Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #129 on: August 14, 2018, 09:03:43 PM »

Online Moranis

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Retreating where?

Is he taking a couple steps back to try to diffuse the situation and hope you put your gun away to he continues the assault?

Is he backing up to his car to get his gun?

He ran after being shot... why didn't he do that before getting shot?

I think the problem is that some of you guys have an overall negative opinion towards gun owners, especially concealed carry owners. Your personal opinion of someone's belief system doesn't apply to case law. Case in point: I don't like guns, I don't own a gun, and I would love to live in a world without guns... but I'm trying to evaluate this case objectively.

It's easy to dissect the video frame by frame to figure out if he should or shouldn't have shot the man. Unfortunately this isn't football. He's most likely going to get the benefit of the doubt because fear is subjective and he was violently assaulted. You're going to have to find 12 people in Florida (not Massachusetts) that don't think that this man shot out of fear. It's a very tall order.

I'm a gun owner (including an AK-47). I'm a former concealed carry permit holder (not needed in NH anymore - we're constitutional carry now). I strongly support gun rights for all citizens, and (generally speaking) support stand your ground laws.

Your theory about people's motivations for their opinions is simply off base.

Being shoved to the ground is no defense for murder, that is absolutely insane. No responsible gun owner would ever claim this is appropriate.

100% agree.  TP.
co-signed.  TP

Yeah, I donít own a gun, but my father owned a gun shop, and my family has used guns both for hunting and in the military for several generations. I still think thatís manslaughter at best, probably murder.
Unless there is some other evidence besides the video or he has significant past incidents, I'll be a bit surprised if he's convicted of manslaughter.  The incident certainly doesn't justify a murder charge.
Of course it does.  He intentionally pulled out a weapon, intentionally shot to kill, and did in fact kill.  That is your classic definition of 2nd degree murder.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #130 on: August 14, 2018, 10:19:40 PM »

Offline Erik

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Retreating where?

Is he taking a couple steps back to try to diffuse the situation and hope you put your gun away to he continues the assault?

Is he backing up to his car to get his gun?

He ran after being shot... why didn't he do that before getting shot?

I think the problem is that some of you guys have an overall negative opinion towards gun owners, especially concealed carry owners. Your personal opinion of someone's belief system doesn't apply to case law. Case in point: I don't like guns, I don't own a gun, and I would love to live in a world without guns... but I'm trying to evaluate this case objectively.

It's easy to dissect the video frame by frame to figure out if he should or shouldn't have shot the man. Unfortunately this isn't football. He's most likely going to get the benefit of the doubt because fear is subjective and he was violently assaulted. You're going to have to find 12 people in Florida (not Massachusetts) that don't think that this man shot out of fear. It's a very tall order.

I'm a gun owner (including an AK-47). I'm a former concealed carry permit holder (not needed in NH anymore - we're constitutional carry now). I strongly support gun rights for all citizens, and (generally speaking) support stand your ground laws.

Your theory about people's motivations for their opinions is simply off base.

Being shoved to the ground is no defense for murder, that is absolutely insane. No responsible gun owner would ever claim this is appropriate.

100% agree.  TP.
co-signed.  TP

Yeah, I donít own a gun, but my father owned a gun shop, and my family has used guns both for hunting and in the military for several generations. I still think thatís manslaughter at best, probably murder.
Unless there is some other evidence besides the video or he has significant past incidents, I'll be a bit surprised if he's convicted of manslaughter.  The incident certainly doesn't justify a murder charge.

Just bookmark the thread for after heís easily acquitted. No use arguing with these guys about a clear self defense case. Stand your ground isnít even needed because the guy is on his back and unable to retreat from his assailant who shoved his head into the pavement.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #131 on: August 15, 2018, 04:13:52 AM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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The previous law in Missouri would require that if someone broke into your home that you as the homeowner had the duty to prove that they were going to do something besides just rob you. You had to prove that they intended to hurt or kill you before you could take any sort of action. Now, let me ask, if you and your wife and chi;dren are in your home and you hear an intruder in the night in your home do you want to have to prove he is going to harm you before you feel justified in using your weapon on him? 
 

Shooting someone in your house is a very different than shooting someone in a parking lot and any scrutiny of the shooter should take this into account.  But a shooter still needs to be held accountable.  Say someone grabs their gun and heads downstairs and ends up shooting their daughter's boyfriend who is sneaking in our out after a visit.  If you decide to own a gun, you have to take full responsibility for any actions that result from that.  I used to own hunting rifles.  I never shot anyone but if I did, i would expect to have to prove that I did so responsibly.  Even if I was in the woods and shot someone by accident.  I always considered it my responsibility to operate that gun safely.  It just can't be any other way or anyone could shoot anyone else and simply say I felt in danger.



I don't know if it's going to be relevant to the case, but my mind keeps going to this: When you carry gun do you have some basic responsibility to avoid (rather than engage in) situations that have combustible potential.  Aside from issues where public safety is at issue, people carrying guns should be mindful of NOT being confrontational. My guess is that if he wasn't carrying, he may not have confronted the woman.   He may have been emboldened by having the gun -- feeling confident that he'd have the upper hand if a situation should escalate.   In this case, I'd want to know if carrying the gun creates a mindset that emboldens him to confront. 

I guess my side question is simple: if you take on the responsibility to carry, shouldn't you always be consciously avoiding unnecessary confrontations?  Those in our country who carry both a gun AND a badge are supposed to confront issues that may not be safety issues (like someone parking in a handicapped space) -- but are highly trained (or at least should be) to avoid escalation.  This guy was probably not trained in de-escalation, and had no business as a civilian gun carrier confronting the woman.  Tell a cop.  Take down her plate number and report it. But don't confront when you are carrying a deadly weapon.  The fact that he did confront makes me suspect that he did so BECAUSE he was carrying.  Fostering this mindset is one of the reasons "Stand Your Ground" may be a colossal mistake.

I don't know if there are statistics but I would expect that someone carrying a gun would be more likely to be confrontational, not less.
I doubt that. There's over 300 million guns in America. I don't know how many gun owners but even if we put the number of owners at 75 million, and given the amount of gun related injuries and death are only about 100,000, that shows the overwhelming majority of people aren't even using their guns to shoot other people.

God, I sound like an NRA guy and I am someone that would repeal the 2nd amendment.
owning a gun and carrying gun are two vastly different things.  And not all confrontations, even with gun carrying people, leads to someone shooting someone.
True, but the numbers are so overwhelming that there really is zero chance that those carrying guns are being confrontational because they are carrying. The overwhelming majority of gun owners and carriers are not confrontation initiators. If they were the country would be flooded with 911 calls of people calling in to state a person started problems with them and then threatened them with a gun. That isn't happening.

I think my point was lost.  I donít think most gun owners become more aggressive once they start carrying. I think the vast majority of gun owners take the responsibility seriously and the last thing they want to do is to be in a situation where they need to pull their gun to defend themselves.  Iím not talking about the typical gun owner.  Iím talking about the state of mind of some gun carriers who see themselves as somehow ďdeputizedĒ by the fact that they possess a gun. When guns provide ďcourageĒ or bravado that result in a Zimmerman confronting Travon Martin, or a man deciding itís his civic duty to ďpoliceĒ an illegal parking situation, they are unnecessarily instigating a potentially combustible situation. If their knee-jerk reaction is then to pull the gun at pushback, it may be a reasonable conclusion that there was an element of the carrier wanting a reason to exert his power.   This is ďBarney FifeĒ syndrome.  Big Man created by a possession of a weapon. 

State of mind may  be irrelevant from a legal standpoint in this case (I have no idea), but itís relevant to me.  No one who carries a deadly weapon should think that they now have a license to confront people unnecessarily ó this should absolutely be part of training for responsible gun ownership: you carry a gun, you avoid unnecessary confrontation, you avoid playing a role in conditions that reasonably could lead to escalation. You tell a cop...like the rest of us, if you are concerned about the behavior of a fellow citizen. You are not law enforcement.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #132 on: August 15, 2018, 07:43:30 AM »

Offline adam8

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Retreating where?

Is he taking a couple steps back to try to diffuse the situation and hope you put your gun away to he continues the assault?

Is he backing up to his car to get his gun?

He ran after being shot... why didn't he do that before getting shot?

I think the problem is that some of you guys have an overall negative opinion towards gun owners, especially concealed carry owners. Your personal opinion of someone's belief system doesn't apply to case law. Case in point: I don't like guns, I don't own a gun, and I would love to live in a world without guns... but I'm trying to evaluate this case objectively.

It's easy to dissect the video frame by frame to figure out if he should or shouldn't have shot the man. Unfortunately this isn't football. He's most likely going to get the benefit of the doubt because fear is subjective and he was violently assaulted. You're going to have to find 12 people in Florida (not Massachusetts) that don't think that this man shot out of fear. It's a very tall order.

I'm a gun owner (including an AK-47). I'm a former concealed carry permit holder (not needed in NH anymore - we're constitutional carry now). I strongly support gun rights for all citizens, and (generally speaking) support stand your ground laws.

Your theory about people's motivations for their opinions is simply off base.

Being shoved to the ground is no defense for murder, that is absolutely insane. No responsible gun owner would ever claim this is appropriate.

100% agree.  TP.
co-signed.  TP

Yeah, I donít own a gun, but my father owned a gun shop, and my family has used guns both for hunting and in the military for several generations. I still think thatís manslaughter at best, probably murder.
Unless there is some other evidence besides the video or he has significant past incidents, I'll be a bit surprised if he's convicted of manslaughter.  The incident certainly doesn't justify a murder charge.
How is this for past incidents https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/14/us/florida-stand-your-ground-previous-incidents/index.html
This guy loved pulling his gun on people and threatening to shoot people over minor offenses, as if the video isnt obvious enough evidence that this was at least manslaugter. This guy was looking for a fight and has been begging to shoot someone I sure hope he go locked up for a long time.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #133 on: August 15, 2018, 08:19:20 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Retreating where?

Is he taking a couple steps back to try to diffuse the situation and hope you put your gun away to he continues the assault?

Is he backing up to his car to get his gun?

He ran after being shot... why didn't he do that before getting shot?

I think the problem is that some of you guys have an overall negative opinion towards gun owners, especially concealed carry owners. Your personal opinion of someone's belief system doesn't apply to case law. Case in point: I don't like guns, I don't own a gun, and I would love to live in a world without guns... but I'm trying to evaluate this case objectively.

It's easy to dissect the video frame by frame to figure out if he should or shouldn't have shot the man. Unfortunately this isn't football. He's most likely going to get the benefit of the doubt because fear is subjective and he was violently assaulted. You're going to have to find 12 people in Florida (not Massachusetts) that don't think that this man shot out of fear. It's a very tall order.

I'm a gun owner (including an AK-47). I'm a former concealed carry permit holder (not needed in NH anymore - we're constitutional carry now). I strongly support gun rights for all citizens, and (generally speaking) support stand your ground laws.

Your theory about people's motivations for their opinions is simply off base.

Being shoved to the ground is no defense for murder, that is absolutely insane. No responsible gun owner would ever claim this is appropriate.

100% agree.  TP.
co-signed.  TP

Yeah, I donít own a gun, but my father owned a gun shop, and my family has used guns both for hunting and in the military for several generations. I still think thatís manslaughter at best, probably murder.
Unless there is some other evidence besides the video or he has significant past incidents, I'll be a bit surprised if he's convicted of manslaughter.  The incident certainly doesn't justify a murder charge.
How is this for past incidents https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/14/us/florida-stand-your-ground-previous-incidents/index.html
This guy loved pulling his gun on people and threatening to shoot people over minor offenses, as if the video isnt obvious enough evidence that this was at least manslaugter. This guy was looking for a fight and has been begging to shoot someone I sure hope he go locked up for a long time.
TP.  Those past incidents would certainly sway me.