Author Topic: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida  (Read 3642 times)

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Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #90 on: August 13, 2018, 03:52:32 PM »

Offline Celtics17

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Well I would say that switching lanes and accidentally cutting someone off is not quite the same as purposely assaulting someone. Yes your life might be in jeopardy depending on how badly you get cut off but in court that would probably be viewed as accidental where deliberately assaulting someone is not. You can argue that the motorcyclist was just going to punch him a few times but how does the older man know this?

The previous law in Missouri would require that if someone broke into your home that you as the homeowner had the duty to prove that they were going to do something besides just rob you. You had to prove that they intended to hurt or kill you before you could take any sort of action. Now, let me ask, if you and your wife and chi;dren are in your home and you hear an intruder in the night in your home do you want to have to prove he is going to harm you before you feel justified in using your weapon on him? 

If you feel that you shoulnt have the right to use your weapon in that situation at what point do you feel that you should? Should the burglar have to grab your wife or one of your children before you think he may harm someone?

I'm not advocating shooting anyone but I do feel that if 'would be criminals' understand the potential repurcussions they may be less likely to commit the crimes.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #91 on: August 13, 2018, 03:56:28 PM »

Offline SparzWizard

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Stand your ground in a grocery market line would be something.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #92 on: August 13, 2018, 03:57:27 PM »

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It looks like there is a now a case - the shooter is now being arrested on charges of manslaughter -
https://abcnews.go.com/US/shooter-florida-stand-ground-case-charged-manslaughter/story?id=57151343



Thankfully at least one official in Florida has a modicum of common sense.

There was simply no justification for this shooting. Drejka's life was never in jeopardy, and there was no ground to stand. Shooting, and killing, a retreating person is murder, plain and simple.
Agreed. Sadly, if there was no video, this scumbag probably gets away with it. The Stand Your Ground laws are some of the dumbest laws in this country. Without video, its almost a license to kill.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #93 on: August 13, 2018, 05:29:42 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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The previous law in Missouri would require that if someone broke into your home that you as the homeowner had the duty to prove that they were going to do something besides just rob you. You had to prove that they intended to hurt or kill you before you could take any sort of action. Now, let me ask, if you and your wife and chi;dren are in your home and you hear an intruder in the night in your home do you want to have to prove he is going to harm you before you feel justified in using your weapon on him? 

Shooting someone in your house is a very different than shooting someone in a parking lot and any scrutiny of the shooter should take this into account.  But a shooter still needs to be held accountable.  Say someone grabs their gun and heads downstairs and ends up shooting their daughter's boyfriend who is sneaking in our out after a visit.  If you decide to own a gun, you have to take full responsibility for any actions that result from that.  I used to own hunting rifles.  I never shot anyone but if I did, i would expect to have to prove that I did so responsibly.  Even if I was in the woods and shot someone by accident.  I always considered it my responsibility to operate that gun safely.  It just can't be any other way or anyone could shoot anyone else and simply say I felt in danger.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #94 on: August 13, 2018, 06:57:04 PM »

Offline jambr380

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So happy to see this guy get charged. It was pretty embarrassing that this took so long. I am in agreement with others who don't understand/agree with the 'stand your ground' law. It doesn't give the victim back his life, but at least his family can see the system work as it should. Hopefully this will prevent further incidents - you just can't give these cowards a leg to stand on.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #95 on: August 13, 2018, 07:53:09 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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The previous law in Missouri would require that if someone broke into your home that you as the homeowner had the duty to prove that they were going to do something besides just rob you. You had to prove that they intended to hurt or kill you before you could take any sort of action. Now, let me ask, if you and your wife and chi;dren are in your home and you hear an intruder in the night in your home do you want to have to prove he is going to harm you before you feel justified in using your weapon on him? 
 

Shooting someone in your house is a very different than shooting someone in a parking lot and any scrutiny of the shooter should take this into account.  But a shooter still needs to be held accountable.  Say someone grabs their gun and heads downstairs and ends up shooting their daughter's boyfriend who is sneaking in our out after a visit.  If you decide to own a gun, you have to take full responsibility for any actions that result from that.  I used to own hunting rifles.  I never shot anyone but if I did, i would expect to have to prove that I did so responsibly.  Even if I was in the woods and shot someone by accident.  I always considered it my responsibility to operate that gun safely.  It just can't be any other way or anyone could shoot anyone else and simply say I felt in danger.



I don't know if it's going to be relevant to the case, but my mind keeps going to this: When you carry gun do you have some basic responsibility to avoid (rather than engage in) situations that have combustible potential.  Aside from issues where public safety is at issue, people carrying guns should be mindful of NOT being confrontational. My guess is that if he wasn't carrying, he may not have confronted the woman.   He may have been emboldened by having the gun -- feeling confident that he'd have the upper hand if a situation should escalate.   In this case, I'd want to know if carrying the gun creates a mindset that emboldens him to confront. 

I guess my side question is simple: if you take on the responsibility to carry, shouldn't you always be consciously avoiding unnecessary confrontations?  Those in our country who carry both a gun AND a badge are supposed to confront issues that may not be safety issues (like someone parking in a handicapped space) -- but are highly trained (or at least should be) to avoid escalation.  This guy was probably not trained in de-escalation, and had no business as a civilian gun carrier confronting the woman.  Tell a cop.  Take down her plate number and report it. But don't confront when you are carrying a deadly weapon.  The fact that he did confront makes me suspect that he did so BECAUSE he was carrying.  Fostering this mindset is one of the reasons "Stand Your Ground" may be a colossal mistake.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #96 on: August 14, 2018, 08:09:05 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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The previous law in Missouri would require that if someone broke into your home that you as the homeowner had the duty to prove that they were going to do something besides just rob you. You had to prove that they intended to hurt or kill you before you could take any sort of action. Now, let me ask, if you and your wife and chi;dren are in your home and you hear an intruder in the night in your home do you want to have to prove he is going to harm you before you feel justified in using your weapon on him? 
 

Shooting someone in your house is a very different than shooting someone in a parking lot and any scrutiny of the shooter should take this into account.  But a shooter still needs to be held accountable.  Say someone grabs their gun and heads downstairs and ends up shooting their daughter's boyfriend who is sneaking in our out after a visit.  If you decide to own a gun, you have to take full responsibility for any actions that result from that.  I used to own hunting rifles.  I never shot anyone but if I did, i would expect to have to prove that I did so responsibly.  Even if I was in the woods and shot someone by accident.  I always considered it my responsibility to operate that gun safely.  It just can't be any other way or anyone could shoot anyone else and simply say I felt in danger.



I don't know if it's going to be relevant to the case, but my mind keeps going to this: When you carry gun do you have some basic responsibility to avoid (rather than engage in) situations that have combustible potential.  Aside from issues where public safety is at issue, people carrying guns should be mindful of NOT being confrontational. My guess is that if he wasn't carrying, he may not have confronted the woman.   He may have been emboldened by having the gun -- feeling confident that he'd have the upper hand if a situation should escalate.   In this case, I'd want to know if carrying the gun creates a mindset that emboldens him to confront. 

I guess my side question is simple: if you take on the responsibility to carry, shouldn't you always be consciously avoiding unnecessary confrontations?  Those in our country who carry both a gun AND a badge are supposed to confront issues that may not be safety issues (like someone parking in a handicapped space) -- but are highly trained (or at least should be) to avoid escalation.  This guy was probably not trained in de-escalation, and had no business as a civilian gun carrier confronting the woman.  Tell a cop.  Take down her plate number and report it. But don't confront when you are carrying a deadly weapon.  The fact that he did confront makes me suspect that he did so BECAUSE he was carrying.  Fostering this mindset is one of the reasons "Stand Your Ground" may be a colossal mistake.

I don't know if there are statistics but I would expect that someone carrying a gun would be more likely to be confrontational, not less.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #97 on: August 14, 2018, 08:57:22 AM »

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The previous law in Missouri would require that if someone broke into your home that you as the homeowner had the duty to prove that they were going to do something besides just rob you. You had to prove that they intended to hurt or kill you before you could take any sort of action. Now, let me ask, if you and your wife and chi;dren are in your home and you hear an intruder in the night in your home do you want to have to prove he is going to harm you before you feel justified in using your weapon on him? 
 

Shooting someone in your house is a very different than shooting someone in a parking lot and any scrutiny of the shooter should take this into account.  But a shooter still needs to be held accountable.  Say someone grabs their gun and heads downstairs and ends up shooting their daughter's boyfriend who is sneaking in our out after a visit.  If you decide to own a gun, you have to take full responsibility for any actions that result from that.  I used to own hunting rifles.  I never shot anyone but if I did, i would expect to have to prove that I did so responsibly.  Even if I was in the woods and shot someone by accident.  I always considered it my responsibility to operate that gun safely.  It just can't be any other way or anyone could shoot anyone else and simply say I felt in danger.



I don't know if it's going to be relevant to the case, but my mind keeps going to this: When you carry gun do you have some basic responsibility to avoid (rather than engage in) situations that have combustible potential.  Aside from issues where public safety is at issue, people carrying guns should be mindful of NOT being confrontational. My guess is that if he wasn't carrying, he may not have confronted the woman.   He may have been emboldened by having the gun -- feeling confident that he'd have the upper hand if a situation should escalate.   In this case, I'd want to know if carrying the gun creates a mindset that emboldens him to confront. 

I guess my side question is simple: if you take on the responsibility to carry, shouldn't you always be consciously avoiding unnecessary confrontations?  Those in our country who carry both a gun AND a badge are supposed to confront issues that may not be safety issues (like someone parking in a handicapped space) -- but are highly trained (or at least should be) to avoid escalation.  This guy was probably not trained in de-escalation, and had no business as a civilian gun carrier confronting the woman.  Tell a cop.  Take down her plate number and report it. But don't confront when you are carrying a deadly weapon.  The fact that he did confront makes me suspect that he did so BECAUSE he was carrying.  Fostering this mindset is one of the reasons "Stand Your Ground" may be a colossal mistake.

I don't know if there are statistics but I would expect that someone carrying a gun would be more likely to be confrontational, not less.
I doubt that. There's over 300 million guns in America. I don't know how many gun owners but even if we put the number of owners at 75 million, and given the amount of gun related injuries and death are only about 100,000, that shows the overwhelming majority of people aren't even using their guns to shoot other people.

God, I sound like an NRA guy and I am someone that would repeal the 2nd amendment.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #98 on: August 14, 2018, 09:42:01 AM »

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The previous law in Missouri would require that if someone broke into your home that you as the homeowner had the duty to prove that they were going to do something besides just rob you. You had to prove that they intended to hurt or kill you before you could take any sort of action. Now, let me ask, if you and your wife and chi;dren are in your home and you hear an intruder in the night in your home do you want to have to prove he is going to harm you before you feel justified in using your weapon on him? 
 

Shooting someone in your house is a very different than shooting someone in a parking lot and any scrutiny of the shooter should take this into account.  But a shooter still needs to be held accountable.  Say someone grabs their gun and heads downstairs and ends up shooting their daughter's boyfriend who is sneaking in our out after a visit.  If you decide to own a gun, you have to take full responsibility for any actions that result from that.  I used to own hunting rifles.  I never shot anyone but if I did, i would expect to have to prove that I did so responsibly.  Even if I was in the woods and shot someone by accident.  I always considered it my responsibility to operate that gun safely.  It just can't be any other way or anyone could shoot anyone else and simply say I felt in danger.



I don't know if it's going to be relevant to the case, but my mind keeps going to this: When you carry gun do you have some basic responsibility to avoid (rather than engage in) situations that have combustible potential.  Aside from issues where public safety is at issue, people carrying guns should be mindful of NOT being confrontational. My guess is that if he wasn't carrying, he may not have confronted the woman.   He may have been emboldened by having the gun -- feeling confident that he'd have the upper hand if a situation should escalate.   In this case, I'd want to know if carrying the gun creates a mindset that emboldens him to confront. 

I guess my side question is simple: if you take on the responsibility to carry, shouldn't you always be consciously avoiding unnecessary confrontations?  Those in our country who carry both a gun AND a badge are supposed to confront issues that may not be safety issues (like someone parking in a handicapped space) -- but are highly trained (or at least should be) to avoid escalation.  This guy was probably not trained in de-escalation, and had no business as a civilian gun carrier confronting the woman.  Tell a cop.  Take down her plate number and report it. But don't confront when you are carrying a deadly weapon.  The fact that he did confront makes me suspect that he did so BECAUSE he was carrying.  Fostering this mindset is one of the reasons "Stand Your Ground" may be a colossal mistake.

I don't know if there are statistics but I would expect that someone carrying a gun would be more likely to be confrontational, not less.
I doubt that. There's over 300 million guns in America. I don't know how many gun owners but even if we put the number of owners at 75 million, and given the amount of gun related injuries and death are only about 100,000, that shows the overwhelming majority of people aren't even using their guns to shoot other people.

God, I sound like an NRA guy and I am someone that would repeal the 2nd amendment.
owning a gun and carrying gun are two vastly different things.  And not all confrontations, even with gun carrying people, leads to someone shooting someone.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #99 on: August 14, 2018, 10:30:13 AM »

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The previous law in Missouri would require that if someone broke into your home that you as the homeowner had the duty to prove that they were going to do something besides just rob you. You had to prove that they intended to hurt or kill you before you could take any sort of action. Now, let me ask, if you and your wife and chi;dren are in your home and you hear an intruder in the night in your home do you want to have to prove he is going to harm you before you feel justified in using your weapon on him? 
 

Shooting someone in your house is a very different than shooting someone in a parking lot and any scrutiny of the shooter should take this into account.  But a shooter still needs to be held accountable.  Say someone grabs their gun and heads downstairs and ends up shooting their daughter's boyfriend who is sneaking in our out after a visit.  If you decide to own a gun, you have to take full responsibility for any actions that result from that.  I used to own hunting rifles.  I never shot anyone but if I did, i would expect to have to prove that I did so responsibly.  Even if I was in the woods and shot someone by accident.  I always considered it my responsibility to operate that gun safely.  It just can't be any other way or anyone could shoot anyone else and simply say I felt in danger.



I don't know if it's going to be relevant to the case, but my mind keeps going to this: When you carry gun do you have some basic responsibility to avoid (rather than engage in) situations that have combustible potential.  Aside from issues where public safety is at issue, people carrying guns should be mindful of NOT being confrontational. My guess is that if he wasn't carrying, he may not have confronted the woman.   He may have been emboldened by having the gun -- feeling confident that he'd have the upper hand if a situation should escalate.   In this case, I'd want to know if carrying the gun creates a mindset that emboldens him to confront. 

I guess my side question is simple: if you take on the responsibility to carry, shouldn't you always be consciously avoiding unnecessary confrontations?  Those in our country who carry both a gun AND a badge are supposed to confront issues that may not be safety issues (like someone parking in a handicapped space) -- but are highly trained (or at least should be) to avoid escalation.  This guy was probably not trained in de-escalation, and had no business as a civilian gun carrier confronting the woman.  Tell a cop.  Take down her plate number and report it. But don't confront when you are carrying a deadly weapon.  The fact that he did confront makes me suspect that he did so BECAUSE he was carrying.  Fostering this mindset is one of the reasons "Stand Your Ground" may be a colossal mistake.

I don't know if there are statistics but I would expect that someone carrying a gun would be more likely to be confrontational, not less.
I doubt that. There's over 300 million guns in America. I don't know how many gun owners but even if we put the number of owners at 75 million, and given the amount of gun related injuries and death are only about 100,000, that shows the overwhelming majority of people aren't even using their guns to shoot other people.

God, I sound like an NRA guy and I am someone that would repeal the 2nd amendment.
owning a gun and carrying gun are two vastly different things.  And not all confrontations, even with gun carrying people, leads to someone shooting someone.
True, but the numbers are so overwhelming that there really is zero chance that those carrying guns are being confrontational because they are carrying. The overwhelming majority of gun owners and carriers are not confrontation initiators. If they were the country would be flooded with 911 calls of people calling in to state a person started problems with them and then threatened them with a gun. That isn't happening.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #100 on: August 14, 2018, 10:30:54 AM »

Offline Erik

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It looks like there is a now a case - the shooter is now being arrested on charges of manslaughter -
https://abcnews.go.com/US/shooter-florida-stand-ground-case-charged-manslaughter/story?id=57151343



Thankfully at least one official in Florida has a modicum of common sense.

There was simply no justification for this shooting. Drejka's life was never in jeopardy, and there was no ground to stand. Shooting, and killing, a retreating person is murder, plain and simple.
Agreed. Sadly, if there was no video, this scumbag probably gets away with it. The Stand Your Ground laws are some of the dumbest laws in this country. Without video, its almost a license to kill.

He's still going to "get away with it." The guy pushed him to the ground and took steps forward as if to continue the assault. I have no doubt after watching the video that his next steps were going to be to kick him or punch him while he was down. We all know what it means when you pull up your pants. You're getting ready to do something "athletic."

I'm sure all of you guys would have held him at gunpoint or put the gun away when he backed down, but just because he didn't doesn't mean that he can't reasonably claim that he was in fear for his life. The video actually helps him. There's no Treyvon situation here where we have to rely on testimony to determine if Zimmerman was getting beaten up or not. We can actually see the assault. Again, also like in Treyvon's case, it doesn't matter that Zimmerman was following him or provoking him or whatever the prosecution tried.

The defense will simply say "My guy was assaulted and it looked like the attacker was going to continue hitting him, so he shot him out of fear" and the case is closed. Change "stand your ground" if you'd like, but this is a clear case of prosecutors charging someone out of political pressure.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #101 on: August 14, 2018, 10:33:30 AM »

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The guy who was shot was clearly backing away for 4 seconds before the guy shot him. You need to watch the video again. Obviously the police saw the same thing or else the shooter wouldn't be in jail.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #102 on: August 14, 2018, 11:33:13 AM »

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The guy who was shot was clearly backing away for 4 seconds before the guy shot him. You need to watch the video again. Obviously the police saw the same thing or else the shooter wouldn't be in jail.
agreed.  seems pretty clear the guy who did the shoving was not moving in to continue the assault even before the gun was drawn  and as I see that video yet again, it sure seems like that guy was really quick to pull that gun and shoot -- like he was looking for an opportunity/excuse to shoot someone. 

his past history regarding his fanaticism over handicapped parking (and other issues) suggests he was just looking to get into a confrontation to use his gun.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #103 on: August 14, 2018, 11:33:34 AM »

Offline Erik

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The guy who was shot was clearly backing away for 4 seconds before the guy shot him. You need to watch the video again. Obviously the police saw the same thing or else the shooter wouldn't be in jail.

This is misinformation. The sheriff refused to charge him (even though he wanted to) due to stand your ground. The state attorney overruled the sheriffs department and filed the charges (just like in Zimmerman) due to political pressure, and they will yet again lose unless they can find an activist jury.

I've seen the video a lot. If it were me, I probably wouldn't have shot even though the guy could have killed me if I didn't have a gun, but I wasn't there in the moment: hurt, scared, adrenaline rushing. I think we can all agree that he was obviously fearful for his life when he pulled out the gun. The question will be if he was afraid at the time of the shot. I think there are a lot of ways a decent defense attorney gets this case won. They can cart out expert after expert that will testify what getting violently pushed onto your head can do to you. Just seems like a loser case to me that will just make people even angrier because no one respects the verdicts.

The guy who was shot was clearly backing away for 4 seconds before the guy shot him. You need to watch the video again. Obviously the police saw the same thing or else the shooter wouldn't be in jail.
agreed.  seems pretty clear the guy who did the shoving was not moving in to continue the assault even before the gun was drawn  and as I see that video yet again, it sure seems like that guy was really quick to pull that gun and shoot -- like he was looking for an opportunity/excuse to shoot someone. 

his past history regarding his fanaticism over handicapped parking (and other issues) suggests he was just looking to get into a confrontation to use his gun.

I don't know how you can come to this conclusion. He was clearly continuing forward, pulled his pants up, and was ready to continue striking him. A kick to a person on the ground can be lethal. Drejka's gun saved him from further damage for sure.

All of the other stuff is irrelevant as we saw with Zimmerman. No amount of verbal harassment can justify assaulting someone in the legal system.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 11:38:44 AM by Erik »

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #104 on: August 14, 2018, 11:49:40 AM »

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The guy who was shot was clearly backing away for 4 seconds before the guy shot him. You need to watch the video again. Obviously the police saw the same thing or else the shooter wouldn't be in jail.

This is misinformation. The sheriff refused to charge him (even though he wanted to) due to stand your ground. The state attorney overruled the sheriffs department and filed the charges (just like in Zimmerman) due to political pressure, and they will yet again lose unless they can find an activist jury.

I've seen the video a lot. If it were me, I probably wouldn't have shot even though the guy could have killed me if I didn't have a gun, but I wasn't there in the moment: hurt, scared, adrenaline rushing. I think we can all agree that he was obviously fearful for his life when he pulled out the gun. The question will be if he was afraid at the time of the shot. I think there are a lot of ways a decent defense attorney gets this case won. They can cart out expert after expert that will testify what getting violently pushed onto your head can do to you. Just seems like a loser case to me that will just make people even angrier because no one respects the verdicts.

The guy who was shot was clearly backing away for 4 seconds before the guy shot him. You need to watch the video again. Obviously the police saw the same thing or else the shooter wouldn't be in jail.
agreed.  seems pretty clear the guy who did the shoving was not moving in to continue the assault even before the gun was drawn  and as I see that video yet again, it sure seems like that guy was really quick to pull that gun and shoot -- like he was looking for an opportunity/excuse to shoot someone. 

his past history regarding his fanaticism over handicapped parking (and other issues) suggests he was just looking to get into a confrontation to use his gun.

I don't know how you can come to this conclusion. He was clearly continuing forward, pulled his pants up, and was ready to continue striking him. A kick to a person on the ground can be lethal. Drejka's gun saved him from further damage for sure.

All of the other stuff is irrelevant as we saw with Zimmerman. No amount of verbal harassment can justify assaulting someone in the legal system.
Talk about misinformation. I said the police agreed. I guess I should have said the justice system? I mean, who do you think did the investigative work and brought their work to the prosecutor who issued the warrant? The Pinellas County Sheriff office did. The police.

The police didn't arrest him right away due to his claim of stand your ground. They then investigated the matter and found some proof that Stand Your Ground protocol was not met. Hence, the arrest. Thishas nothing to do with political pressure. There's no evidence of that whatsoever. That's just your opinion.

And yes, he still might get off but in that video it is pretty evident the mann was retreating and the shooter fired anyway. If the person retreats in a confrontation and the person with the gun shoots, Stand Your Ground doesn't pertain