Author Topic: ESPN - East Race Predictions post-Kawhi Trade  (Read 3548 times)

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Re: ESPN - East Race Predictions post-Kawhi Trade
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2018, 11:49:42 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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May be hack job but I for one think Toronto is going to be really good this year. Leonard is twice the player DeRozen was, even if a one year rental. Don’t understand others’ flippancy.

I’m there with you.  The Raptors were a terrific team last year.  Yes, they choked in the playoffs against LeBron (and LeBron hit a crazy shot to win another game as well).  My gut says if we had played Toronto in the postseason we wouldn’t have beaten them.  Yes, we were down some key players, but Toronto didn’t win 59 games by accident, and they are a better team this year than last (assuming Kawhi actually shows up).  Anyone taking them for granted is going to be sorely disappointed.  I think we should come out ahead of them, but the margin for error isnt very large.  They are a far greater threat than Philly.



- People are discounting the effect of going from Dwayne Casey to Nick Nurse.  Maybe that's an upgrade, but that's far from guaranteed.

- We have no idea if Kawhi is the player he was two years ago.

- The Raptors as constructed prior to the Kawhi trade had several years worth of evidence that they were not a good playoff team.  It was not simply a matter of choking against LeBron.  They consistently underperformed in the playoffs.

- Ibaka another year older, and in these playoffs he looked washed.



I do not see the Raptors as on the same level as the Celtics.  No other team in the East is.  They will be a threat in the playoffs but the Celts should be a clear favorite.
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Re: ESPN - East Race Predictions post-Kawhi Trade
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2018, 11:52:05 AM »

Offline Moranis

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May be hack job but I for one think Toronto is going to be really good this year. Leonard is twice the player DeRozen was, even if a one year rental. Don’t understand others’ flippancy.

I’m there with you.  The Raptors were a terrific team last year.  Yes, they choked in the playoffs against LeBron (and LeBron hit a crazy shot to win another game as well).  My gut says if we had played Toronto in the postseason we wouldn’t have beaten them.  Yes, we were down some key players, but Toronto didn’t win 59 games by accident, and they are a better team this year than last (assuming Kawhi actually shows up).  Anyone taking them for granted is going to be sorely disappointed.  I think we should come out ahead of them, but the margin for error isnt very large.  They are a far greater threat than Philly.



- People are discounting the effect of going from Dwayne Casey to Nick Nurse.  Maybe that's an upgrade, but that's far from guaranteed.

- We have no idea if Kawhi is the player he was two years ago.

- The Raptors as constructed prior to the Kawhi trade had several years worth of evidence that they were not a good playoff team.  It was not simply a matter of choking against LeBron.  They consistently underperformed in the playoffs.

- Ibaka another year older, and in these playoffs he looked washed.



I do not see the Raptors as on the same level as the Celtics.  No other team in the East is.  They will be a threat in the playoffs but the Celts should be a clear favorite.
the Raptors lost to the Cavs each of the last 3 years in the playoffs.  They lost badly 2 of those years, but no other team in the East could beat them in the playoffs.  So it is really hard to say they underperformed overall.  They couldn't beat James, but now they don't have to worry about that.
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Re: ESPN - East Race Predictions post-Kawhi Trade
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2018, 12:33:20 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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Favorite part was "who is the alpha of the East" and Irving wasn't even mentioned.

Oladipo was.

 ::)

Re: ESPN - East Race Predictions post-Kawhi Trade
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2018, 01:01:53 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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May be hack job but I for one think Toronto is going to be really good this year. Leonard is twice the player DeRozen was, even if a one year rental. Don’t understand others’ flippancy.

I’m there with you.  The Raptors were a terrific team last year.  Yes, they choked in the playoffs against LeBron (and LeBron hit a crazy shot to win another game as well).  My gut says if we had played Toronto in the postseason we wouldn’t have beaten them.  Yes, we were down some key players, but Toronto didn’t win 59 games by accident, and they are a better team this year than last (assuming Kawhi actually shows up).  Anyone taking them for granted is going to be sorely disappointed.  I think we should come out ahead of them, but the margin for error isnt very large.  They are a far greater threat than Philly.



- People are discounting the effect of going from Dwayne Casey to Nick Nurse.  Maybe that's an upgrade, but that's far from guaranteed.

- We have no idea if Kawhi is the player he was two years ago.

- The Raptors as constructed prior to the Kawhi trade had several years worth of evidence that they were not a good playoff team.  It was not simply a matter of choking against LeBron.  They consistently underperformed in the playoffs.

- Ibaka another year older, and in these playoffs he looked washed.



I do not see the Raptors as on the same level as the Celtics.  No other team in the East is.  They will be a threat in the playoffs but the Celts should be a clear favorite.
the Raptors lost to the Cavs each of the last 3 years in the playoffs.  They lost badly 2 of those years, but no other team in the East could beat them in the playoffs.  So it is really hard to say they underperformed overall.  They couldn't beat James, but now they don't have to worry about that.

This Lowry/DeRozan core's history is:

2014: Lost a home series to BRK in 7
2015: Got swept in a home series by WSH
2016: Won a home series vs IND in 7; won a home series vs MIA in 7; lost a road series to CLE in 6
2017: Won a home series vs MIL in 6; got swept in a road series by CLE
2018: Won a home series vs WAS in 6; got swept in a home series by CLE

There's only one run there that the team can be happy with; otherwise they got beat by lower-seeded teams 3 times and swept by a higher-seeded team once. That's 3 dud playoffs, one decent series win followed by getting steamrolled by a better team, one actual good run where they went down swinging to LeBron.  They never once overperformed their seed and underperformed it 3 times. They earned their reputation.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 01:17:15 PM by fairweatherfan »

Re: ESPN - East Race Predictions post-Kawhi Trade
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2018, 04:13:05 PM »

Offline Erik

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2. Fact or fiction: The Celtics or Sixers should have topped Toronto's offer for Kawhi.

Herring: In theory? Fact. I would've considered trading away Gordon Hayward if I were Danny Ainge. And I would've been open to moving Markelle Fultz if I were Philly. The catch is that you'd obviously want a firm sense of commitment from Kawhi before pulling the trigger. There was no indication that Kawhi was going to offer that, so it might have been in both teams' best interest to pass.


He would trade Hayward and considered trading Fultz?  I know Fultz is younger and makes a lot less, but really?
Why would SAS be even somewhat interested in Fultz?

They're not. Otherwise he would have been traded.

The only reason these hacks are reporting this stuff is because Philly hid the fact that he's a bust by creating some bull**** about a shoulder injury and the media is refusing to call them out on the lie, so we have a situation in which everyone knows that Fultz has a mental problem but no one can talk about it. So they're giving him the Ben Simmons treatment of "he was injured but has massive upside." It's just a bunch of bull.

If I'm Philly and SAS wants to free me from this Fultz nightmare and give me the best 2 way player in the league for my trouble, there's no way in hell I'm saying no. Rental or not.

Re: ESPN - East Race Predictions post-Kawhi Trade
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2018, 04:16:10 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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2. Fact or fiction: The Celtics or Sixers should have topped Toronto's offer for Kawhi.

Herring: In theory? Fact. I would've considered trading away Gordon Hayward if I were Danny Ainge. And I would've been open to moving Markelle Fultz if I were Philly. The catch is that you'd obviously want a firm sense of commitment from Kawhi before pulling the trigger. There was no indication that Kawhi was going to offer that, so it might have been in both teams' best interest to pass.


He would trade Hayward and considered trading Fultz?  I know Fultz is younger and makes a lot less, but really?
Why would SAS be even somewhat interested in Fultz?

They're not.

The only reason these hacks are reporting this stuff is because Philly hid the fact that he's a bust by creating some bull**** about a shoulder injury and the media is refusing to call them out on the lie, so we have a situation in which everyone knows that Fultz has a mental problem but no one can talk about it.
The entire reason you know about him having the yips and not an actual shoulder injury is the media reported on it. And they talked about it a LOT.

There are a lot of stories, podcasts, and good reporting on the entire situation with his shooting form getting changed by his trainer and how it all spiraled out of control.

Re: ESPN - East Race Predictions post-Kawhi Trade
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2018, 04:27:07 PM »

Offline Birdman

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2. Toronto
3. Philly
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Re: ESPN - East Race Predictions post-Kawhi Trade
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2018, 04:29:07 PM »

Offline Erik

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2. Fact or fiction: The Celtics or Sixers should have topped Toronto's offer for Kawhi.

Herring: In theory? Fact. I would've considered trading away Gordon Hayward if I were Danny Ainge. And I would've been open to moving Markelle Fultz if I were Philly. The catch is that you'd obviously want a firm sense of commitment from Kawhi before pulling the trigger. There was no indication that Kawhi was going to offer that, so it might have been in both teams' best interest to pass.


He would trade Hayward and considered trading Fultz?  I know Fultz is younger and makes a lot less, but really?
Why would SAS be even somewhat interested in Fultz?

They're not.

The only reason these hacks are reporting this stuff is because Philly hid the fact that he's a bust by creating some bull**** about a shoulder injury and the media is refusing to call them out on the lie, so we have a situation in which everyone knows that Fultz has a mental problem but no one can talk about it.
The entire reason you know about him having the yips and not an actual shoulder injury is the media reported on it. And they talked about it a LOT.

There are a lot of stories, podcasts, and good reporting on the entire situation with his shooting form getting changed by his trainer and how it all spiraled out of control.

Actually I knew that he had the yips around the point that I heard about "the fluid going in vs going out." You can check my posts from October when this forum was laughing at me for that take. It was the only logical answer to a ridiculous situation. They weren't calling it the yips. They were reporting this stuff as if it was an honest mistake.

A shooting coach doesn't just change the #1 pick's shot and the team knows nothing about it for months. When Drew Hanlon said that he had the yips in June of 2018, that was the very first time that anyone ever actually acknowledged that he had the yips. No one: not Fultz, his trainer at the time, or Philly staff ever admitted to it. Why are they letting the lie slide? If I'm ESPN, every single time I see any Philly brass, I'm going to ask why they lied about his injury until they answer the question. Until then, the hacks just skate around the issue. It's only discussed in podcasts (as you mentioned) and reddit where people can speak freely.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 04:35:07 PM by Erik »

Re: ESPN - East Race Predictions post-Kawhi Trade
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2018, 04:35:11 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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If you're that vehement against the media I don't know what to tell you. The beat reporters asked them about it, they reported on it, they got quotes saying that doctor's doubted he was hurt, anonymous GMs (who literally cannot comment on other team's players) saying it was bizarre, they reported all the changing stories, etc.

They can't put Brett Brown against the wall and beat the truth out of him, they still have to do the rest of their job when he says no comment.

The idea that the media was complacent and silent about Fultz is bizarre to me.

Re: ESPN - East Race Predictions post-Kawhi Trade
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2018, 04:46:13 PM »

Offline Erik

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We're speaking two different languages.

I'm saying that the ESPN narrative is STILL that Fultz had a minor injury and should be good to go next season. That is why these reporters think that Fultz has a lot of trade value. "I would have given up Fultz for Leonard." Yeah, no ****. So would I. I'd also give up Scalabrine for Leonard.

The reality? The guy might not ever play significant minutes in the NBA. So if I'm an ESPN analyst and I'm asked "Should the Sixers have topped Toronto's offer?" I would respond "With what? Until I see Fultz hit a 3 pointer in an NBA game, he has 0 trade value."

Until the entire narrative is completely changed around Fultz in major media, you aren't going to get accurate analysis and reporting. I mean if you really believe that the reason the trade didn't go through is that they didn't want to give up Fultz, I don't know what to tell you man. It's all a lie.

Re: ESPN - East Race Predictions post-Kawhi Trade
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2018, 04:50:33 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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We're speaking two different languages.

I'm saying that the ESPN narrative is STILL that Fultz had a minor injury and should be good to go next season. That is why these reporters think that Fultz has a lot of trade value. "I would have given up Fultz for Leonard." Yeah, no ****. So would I. I'd also give up Scalabrine for Leonard.
That is not the narrative of ESPN's reporters, I'm really not sure where you are getting this "narrative" from. They have repeatedly said that they don't know if the Spurs even wanted Fultz because of all of his issues.

Fultz is very much a giant question mark at this point, I think everyone who writes on the league has said so at this point.

Your language seems to be one of a grievance against ESPN, but in this situation I'm skeptical its about their reporting on Fultz.

Re: ESPN - East Race Predictions post-Kawhi Trade
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2018, 04:57:27 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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We're speaking two different languages.

I'm saying that the ESPN narrative is STILL that Fultz had a minor injury and should be good to go next season. That is why these reporters think that Fultz has a lot of trade value. "I would have given up Fultz for Leonard." Yeah, no ****. So would I. I'd also give up Scalabrine for Leonard.

The reality? The guy might not ever play significant minutes in the NBA. So if I'm an ESPN analyst and I'm asked "Should the Sixers have topped Toronto's offer?" I would respond "With what? Until I see Fultz hit a 3 pointer in an NBA game, he has 0 trade value."

Until the entire narrative is completely changed around Fultz in major media, you aren't going to get accurate analysis and reporting. I mean if you really believe that the reason the trade didn't go through is that they didn't want to give up Fultz, I don't know what to tell you man. It's all a lie.
Why wouldn't he play in the NBA even with a broken shot?  Lots of players have broken shots.  He looked pretty good otherwise when he came back for the last 10 games of the season.   

Re: ESPN - East Race Predictions post-Kawhi Trade
« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2018, 04:57:27 PM »

Offline Smitty77

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May be hack job but I for one think Toronto is going to be really good this year. Leonard is twice the player DeRozen was, even if a one year rental. Don’t understand others’ flippancy.

Kawhi simply is NOT twice as good as DeRozen!!  We do NOT even know IF Leonard is healthy, do we?  Many are NOT sure if Kawhi is NOW a head case, correct?

What we really DO know is that, especially given their ages and upside or lack thereof, Poeltl IS twice the player that a washed up Green is!!!  Green USED to be solid, but he is now a BELOW average NBA player as evidenced by his 11 PER!!  His RPM is literally 0.00, which is ranked below Redick!

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/2

Did I mention that Danny is making $10 million this year?

https://hoopshype.com/salaries/toronto_raptors/

Poeltl is make just under $2.95 million!

https://hoopshype.com/salaries/san_antonio_spurs/

Smitty77

P.S. I don't understand the "flippancy" of people not talking about the Green and Poeltl part of this trade!!:-)))


Re: ESPN - East Race Predictions post-Kawhi Trade
« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2018, 04:57:45 PM »

Offline Erik

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Again, you gotta read between the lines:
"I would've considered trading away Gordon Hayward if I were Danny Ainge. And I would've been open to moving Markelle Fultz if I were Philly." - Herring

He's A) implying that Philly wasn't willing to part with Fultz for Leonard and that's why the deal didn't work out and B) that Fultz has relatively the same trade value as Gordon Hayward.

I know that for Philly there would be additional filler, but Fultz would be the main attraction -- lol. Just absurd.

"A package built around last year's No. 1 pick Markelle Fultz" - Snellings

Last year's No. 1 pick who coincidentally doesn't remember how to shoot a basketball.


In general, these are statements that imply that Fultz has a lot of trade value. He doesn't. That is why these journalists here are hacks.

Re: ESPN - East Race Predictions post-Kawhi Trade
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2018, 05:49:18 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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In general, these are statements that imply that Fultz has a lot of trade value. He doesn't. That is why these journalists here are hacks.
These journalists don't agree with me, therefore they are hacks is a heck of a statement.

Anyways there are lot of other journalists at ESPN who've done a lot of good work on the Fultz situation over a full year of reporting. Not shockingly they have a variety of opinions on what Fultzs potential and value is currently.