Author Topic: Toronto as a threat to Celtics  (Read 2632 times)

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Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
« Reply #45 on: July 21, 2018, 03:09:00 PM »

Online rollie mass

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A)  In regards to the OP, I think Raptors hope they can re-sign Leonard.

B) Raptors are the Cs top challenger in the East.

Letting him walk for nothing, along with giving away Jacob seems like a very risky bet.So unless DeRozens salary dump was a priority, Why would anybody trade for a player so committed to getting back to LA. I have read they are rolling the dice for a run at title but there are so many IF'S Are they hoping for the George  effect?
There must be a bailout scenario in place or a quick flip.
I have read too many conspiracy books but we are talking millions and millions of dollars and the direction of two franchises for years.This was a solid Toronto team coming back with another years experience and depth.
An all star that loved Toronto for a possible silent sullen unhappy player coming from sun belt and LA to out of the country to the cold North.
This smacks of a move for young kids and a pick

Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
« Reply #46 on: July 21, 2018, 11:09:27 PM »

Offline Bobshot

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I see the Toronto deal as pretty much of a standoff. That assumes Leonard is healthy. You give up a 25 ppg star for another star, you don't change very much.

On the other hand, the Celtics are a team that was one game away from the finals without Irving or Hayward. And they missed Hayward the whole season and Irving a good chunk of it.

The Celtics look like the Beast of the East.

Now if Philly had gotten Leonard without giving up Simmons or Embiid, it might have been a bit closer.

Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
« Reply #47 on: July 22, 2018, 12:17:32 AM »

Offline saltlover

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I see the Toronto deal as pretty much of a standoff. That assumes Leonard is healthy. You give up a 25 ppg star for another star, you don't change very much.

On the other hand, the Celtics are a team that was one game away from the finals without Irving or Hayward. And they missed Hayward the whole season and Irving a good chunk of it.

The Celtics look like the Beast of the East.

Now if Philly had gotten Leonard without giving up Simmons or Embiid, it might have been a bit closer.

Except one 25 point scorer was not very good at defense while the other is a two-time Defensive Player of the Year.  And one has a reputation for choking in the playoffs while the other is a Finals MVP.  Leonard really is considerably better than DeRozan.
“When an alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien. The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.”

Leviticus 19:33-34

Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2018, 12:29:45 AM »

Offline RockinRyA

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I see the Toronto deal as pretty much of a standoff. That assumes Leonard is healthy. You give up a 25 ppg star for another star, you don't change very much.

On the other hand, the Celtics are a team that was one game away from the finals without Irving or Hayward. And they missed Hayward the whole season and Irving a good chunk of it.

The Celtics look like the Beast of the East.

Now if Philly had gotten Leonard without giving up Simmons or Embiid, it might have been a bit closer.

Except one 25 point scorer was not very good at defense while the other is a two-time Defensive Player of the Year.  And one has a reputation for choking in the playoffs while the other is a Finals MVP.  Leonard really is considerably better than DeRozan.

This.

Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2018, 03:53:38 AM »

Online gouki88

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I see the Toronto deal as pretty much of a standoff. That assumes Leonard is healthy. You give up a 25 ppg star for another star, you don't change very much.

On the other hand, the Celtics are a team that was one game away from the finals without Irving or Hayward. And they missed Hayward the whole season and Irving a good chunk of it.

The Celtics look like the Beast of the East.

Now if Philly had gotten Leonard without giving up Simmons or Embiid, it might have been a bit closer.

Except one 25 point scorer was not very good at defense while the other is a two-time Defensive Player of the Year.  And one has a reputation for choking in the playoffs while the other is a Finals MVP.  Leonard really is considerably better than DeRozan.
Lol, TP. Spot on salt. Westbrook and LeBron both score 25-30 a night, so they have the same impact on winning, right?

Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2018, 07:43:23 AM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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I always felt like Leonard's legend was bigger than his actual play. He played one season as a top 5 player in the NBA. That one season broke one very important norm in his entire basketball career -- free throw rate. It spiked considerably. Most of the time, as a player's athleticism wanes so does his free throw rate.

I wonder, if he only averages 20 with less shot creation than DeRozan had and elite defense, will the narrative shift? Will it be blaming his athleticism, or bemoaning the player that was? Will the blame be on the system, or the coaching, or the teammates? Or will people recognize then what I'm saying now, Leonard is a good, not great or elite, offensive basketball player. He is in the same tier as Tobias Harris as an offensive basketball player, except for one year when his free throw rate spiked.

If there were negative TPs, I'm sure I'd get negged bad here, but I always thought Leonard was a more effective version of Gerald Wallace. He locks-in on defense more, but he also rebounds less. Leonard is a better scorer than Wallace, primarily because Leonard is a much better shooter.

That's a really good basketball player, but if you are willing to consider that, you also have to consider how Gerald Wallace fell off a cliff as his athleticism waned. Leonard's fall won't be that bad because of shooting and mentality, but I don't think he has the dribbling, feel, or moves to a first option on a playoff team.

Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
« Reply #51 on: July 22, 2018, 08:11:42 AM »

Offline Green-18

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I always felt like Leonard's legend was bigger than his actual play. He played one season as a top 5 player in the NBA. That one season broke one very important norm in his entire basketball career -- free throw rate. It spiked considerably. Most of the time, as a player's athleticism wanes so does his free throw rate.

I wonder, if he only averages 20 with less shot creation than DeRozan had and elite defense, will the narrative shift? Will it be blaming his athleticism, or bemoaning the player that was? Will the blame be on the system, or the coaching, or the teammates? Or will people recognize then what I'm saying now, Leonard is a good, not great or elite, offensive basketball player. He is in the same tier as Tobias Harris as an offensive basketball player, except for one year when his free throw rate spiked.

If there were negative TPs, I'm sure I'd get negged bad here, but I always thought Leonard was a more effective version of Gerald Wallace. He locks-in on defense more, but he also rebounds less. Leonard is a better scorer than Wallace, primarily because Leonard is a much better shooter.

That's a really good basketball player, but if you are willing to consider that, you also have to consider how Gerald Wallace fell off a cliff as his athleticism waned. Leonard's fall won't be that bad because of shooting and mentality, but I don't think he has the dribbling, feel, or moves to a first option on a playoff team.

Valid points but I think you went a bit too far in the other direction.  If a healthy Kawhi isn't good enough to be first option on a playoff team then I would argue it's more a reflection of the current NBA landscape.  His playoff efficiency didn't suffer at all in two seasons as the #1 option for San Antonio.  LeBron and Durant are probably the only two players who can maintain high volume and efficiency against any opponent in the playoffs.  Even James Harden shows far more inconsistency than Leonard. 

If anything I think it's fair to say that the media overrated his impact as a singular defender.  That's not to say that he isn't the best perimeter defender in the NBA.  However, Kevin Durant absolutely destroyed the Spurs in his last year with OKC.  I absolutely hate the narrative that Kawhi can negate the #1 option on the opposing team.  It's as if the other four players on his team don't exist.  Not to mention that offenses are much more versatile these days.

A 100% healthy Leonard is a top 5 player in the NBA.  We can easily find flaws in KD, Curry, Harden, Davis etc.  LeBron is the only player who can steamroll opponents regardless of the cast around him.

Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
« Reply #52 on: July 22, 2018, 08:44:24 AM »

Online rollie mass

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TP from me-I have not watched enough of Kawhi to judge him but winning a championship needs commitment from a whole team.Kawhi has played in Pops system only and will have to suffer the backlash of DeRozens betrayal by managment.His tune of going to LA will reverberate and resonate during the adjustment period.
Will he jeopardize his health at the defensive end? -defense takes commitment and hurts.
Will the press with it's prodding be conducive to trying to sell him on Montreal?Will his quiet demeanor be considered sullen and simmer in locker room?
Will he force a panic sale to LA?
This move is Machiavellian, in that in ends in a rebuild,the moving of a large contract and may end at some point with a trade for youth and a draft pick is my take.
Will Kawhi  play for Pop at USA mini camp to prove he is healthy?
Will he pass a physical?
He has been out a year -how much rust and loss of drive  is there?

The firing of Casey and shipping out DeRozen and hiring his assistant will that sit well with players ,press and fans.We have all witnessed what great coaching can do or not do.

Millions are on the line,the direction of two franchises and the League.So there must be contingency plans and communications with other GM's in case
A Montreal GM is known to be conservative and he breaks up a winning squad with Lebron gone for a rental.
That is crazy and if they are not crazy it must be misdirection.

« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 08:51:25 AM by rollie mass »

Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
« Reply #53 on: July 22, 2018, 09:04:58 AM »

Offline Surferdad

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He has been out a year -how much rust and loss of drive  is there?

...
I see this as the biggest question of all.  Nothing can replace playing against NBA-level competition is real games.  It's a game of split-second decisions and it will take 15-20 games minimum to get "up to speed" again.  Then add in his recovery.

Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
« Reply #54 on: July 22, 2018, 12:31:02 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I see the Toronto deal as pretty much of a standoff. That assumes Leonard is healthy. You give up a 25 ppg star for another star, you don't change very much.

On the other hand, the Celtics are a team that was one game away from the finals without Irving or Hayward. And they missed Hayward the whole season and Irving a good chunk of it.

The Celtics look like the Beast of the East.

Now if Philly had gotten Leonard without giving up Simmons or Embiid, it might have been a bit closer.

Except one 25 point scorer was not very good at defense while the other is a two-time Defensive Player of the Year.  And one has a reputation for choking in the playoffs while the other is a Finals MVP.  Leonard really is considerably better than DeRozan.
Lol, TP. Spot on salt. Westbrook and LeBron both score 25-30 a night, so they have the same impact on winning, right?

Before Leonard got zaza'd I thought he was the best player in the league. If he is healthy and engaged Toronto will be a monster

Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
« Reply #55 on: July 22, 2018, 02:08:18 PM »

Offline gpap

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I just don't see it with Toronto. I really don't. They've continuously melted in the playoffs and I don't see this Kawhi experiment working. Too many variables such as his health and questionable desire to play in Toronto, when he clearly knows he'll be gone in a year.

I get Toronto trying to swing for the fences and trying to shake things up, but ultimately I don't think this ends up working.

Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
« Reply #56 on: July 22, 2018, 06:18:26 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I always felt like Leonard's legend was bigger than his actual play. He played one season as a top 5 player in the NBA. That one season broke one very important norm in his entire basketball career -- free throw rate. It spiked considerably. Most of the time, as a player's athleticism wanes so does his free throw rate.

I wonder, if he only averages 20 with less shot creation than DeRozan had and elite defense, will the narrative shift? Will it be blaming his athleticism, or bemoaning the player that was? Will the blame be on the system, or the coaching, or the teammates? Or will people recognize then what I'm saying now, Leonard is a good, not great or elite, offensive basketball player. He is in the same tier as Tobias Harris as an offensive basketball player, except for one year when his free throw rate spiked.

If there were negative TPs, I'm sure I'd get negged bad here, but I always thought Leonard was a more effective version of Gerald Wallace. He locks-in on defense more, but he also rebounds less. Leonard is a better scorer than Wallace, primarily because Leonard is a much better shooter.

That's a really good basketball player, but if you are willing to consider that, you also have to consider how Gerald Wallace fell off a cliff as his athleticism waned. Leonard's fall won't be that bad because of shooting and mentality, but I don't think he has the dribbling, feel, or moves to a first option on a playoff team.
Kawhi finished 2nd and 3rd in MVP voting in consecutive seasons landing on the 1st Team All NBA both of those years.  The season before that he finished 10th though didn't land on an All NBA Team though was Finals MVP.  He won DPOY twice and finished 3rd in those same 3 seasons and of course was 1st Team All Defense all 3 years (4 full seasons ago he was on the 2nd Team All Defense). 

I don't get this idea that Kawhi had 1 high level season.  He had at least 2 where every metric placed him as a top 5 player in the league.   He just turned 27 so theoretically is just entering his absolute prime years. 

Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
« Reply #57 on: July 22, 2018, 06:48:43 PM »

Offline csfansince60s

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The addition of Kawhi and subtraction of DeRozen may not sit well with Lowry and teammates having to deal with a player that doesn't want to be there.Then the aspect of playing at 100% effort on defense as well as offence.There may be conflict with fans who DeRozen cultivated with his desire and loyalty to Toronto.
The loss of a NBA front line coach.What is to motivate Kawhi -not pride .He didn't get back for playoffs .Will he jeopardize his going to LA with an injury or will he bow out at the first sprained ankle.
I believe this is a sideways move to get Kawli to LA and not waste a season of Lebrons  and a trade will go down with Toronto getting some young pieces and a draft choice.Toronto got themselves out of a bad contract and will start their rebuild.
If the Raptors envision him playing they better get him in Toronto while the weathers good.JOKE
Team chemistry is necessary to win a championship and that is a unlikely event with this trade.
Boston had a number one defense that will get better with Hayward and Jason getting stronger.We have in essence the same team back plus Wannamaker a taller reserve than Larkin.
Kawhi just sat out a whole season ,has stayed firm in his resolution about getting to LA is going to suffer huge taxes in Canada and a city on a lake not the Pacific Ocean is not going to cut it.
NO! NO! NO! this is good for Celtics unless there is a miracle.


I think the highlighted are rollie's major points, i.e that the Toronto threat to the Cs is via the Fakers with a deal for Kawhi to be with Bron Bron already in place: something like Deng/Ingram and either Kuzma or Hart for Kawhi. Not that the Raps will be a threat to us in the East.

TP to the OP, even though  it's hard to tease out his main message sometime.

Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
« Reply #58 on: July 22, 2018, 07:01:39 PM »

Offline wiley

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Leonard to Lakers in a trade makes the most sense for Leonard.

It makes the most sense for Lebron/Lakers

And it makes the most sense for the Raptors


Of the three above we just have to wait and see if the Raptors get the memo...

Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
« Reply #59 on: July 22, 2018, 07:08:40 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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Too many people dismissing the raptors on this thread.  Are they a legitimate threat to make it out of the east?  Absolutely.  I’d say the Celtics should be favored but not by a lot.  The raptors had the best bench in the league last year and were the number 1 seed going in.  They are very likely better this year.