Author Topic: Unbelievable- San Fran allowing Illegals to vote.  (Read 1668 times)

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Re: Unbelievable- San Fran allowing Illegals to vote.
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2018, 04:59:28 PM »

Offline JSD

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The best answer of any politician I've heard on the Illegal Immigration question:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y3zEP75kFM

What a shame that Republicans never got their acts together and nominated this man. He could have corrected 80 years of federal abuse of American citizens.


Sigh... amen to that

Re: Unbelievable- San Fran allowing Illegals to vote.
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2018, 12:03:19 AM »

Offline mmmmm

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Not letting them vote on school issues, when they are paying taxes to support those schools, would be taxation without representation.
They are working so are likely paying state and federal income taxes.  So should they be able to vote in state and federal elections too?   Voting is a right and responsibility of being a citizen.  People who are here illegally should not have the right to vote.

Except ... our country already disenfranchises millions of citizens, not granting them the right to vote purely based on their residence.

Go move to any of the U.S. territories, giving up any residence in the 50 states. You will still be 100% a citizen along with the other residents there.   Now try to cast a vote in the next presidential election.  Good luck.

The point is that no, citizenship itself is not really the deciding characteristic determining whether one can vote or not.

The determining factors are varied and often confusing based on byzantine laws.   But ultimately what we should be _striving_ for as a supposedly democratic society, is inclusion.  People who live here who's lives are effected by an election should be able to vote in that election.

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Re: Unbelievable- San Fran allowing Illegals to vote.
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2018, 12:29:01 AM »

Offline RockinRyA

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Not letting them vote on school issues, when they are paying taxes to support those schools, would be taxation without representation.
They are working so are likely paying state and federal income taxes.  So should they be able to vote in state and federal elections too?   Voting is a right and responsibility of being a citizen.  People who are here illegally should not have the right to vote.

Except ... our country already disenfranchises millions of citizens, not granting them the right to vote purely based on their residence.

Go move to any of the U.S. territories, giving up any residence in the 50 states. You will still be 100% a citizen along with the other residents there.   Now try to cast a vote in the next presidential election.  Good luck.

The point is that no, citizenship itself is not really the deciding characteristic determining whether one can vote or not.

The determining factors are varied and often confusing based on byzantine laws.   But ultimately what we should be _striving_ for as a supposedly democratic society, is inclusion.  People who live here who's lives are effected by an election should be able to vote in that election.

That is just having it backwards. The solution is to prevent disenfranchisement by making sure that citizens can vote rather than use disenfranchisement as an excuse to allow non-citizens to vote.

Re: Unbelievable- San Fran allowing Illegals to vote.
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2018, 05:11:24 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Not letting them vote on school issues, when they are paying taxes to support those schools, would be taxation without representation.
They are working so are likely paying state and federal income taxes.  So should they be able to vote in state and federal elections too?   Voting is a right and responsibility of being a citizen.  People who are here illegally should not have the right to vote.

Except ... our country already disenfranchises millions of citizens, not granting them the right to vote purely based on their residence.

Go move to any of the U.S. territories, giving up any residence in the 50 states. You will still be 100% a citizen along with the other residents there.   Now try to cast a vote in the next presidential election.  Good luck.

The point is that no, citizenship itself is not really the deciding characteristic determining whether one can vote or not.

The determining factors are varied and often confusing based on byzantine laws.   But ultimately what we should be _striving_ for as a supposedly democratic society, is inclusion.  People who live here who's lives are effected by an election should be able to vote in that election.



That citizens in US Territories are unable to vote in Presidential Elections doesn't excuse allowing people who are here ILLEGALLY to vote at any level. That's just some weak rationalization.

Re: Unbelievable- San Fran allowing Illegals to vote.
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2018, 06:44:17 AM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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People who have entered the country without going through proper channels, some of whom who did so with nefarious intent, some of whom did so to provide safety, food, and a better life for themselves and their children, should not have the right to vote.   That said, people who pay taxes with children who participate in public schools should have a voice (not necessarily a public vote) in the education of their children. My conclusion is that we need solve the immigration problem as this issue is terribly devicive and there is no solution that is without negative consequence, especially if you have concern for children — who are often unwitting beneficiaries and unwitting victims of the entire process of leaving their native country, entry to America, and deportation. 

BTW, I mention those undocumented who have crossed borders out of desperation (hunger, fear/safety...) in an attempt to humanize.  It’s ok to think of undocumented people as human beings who are at some level of desparation trying to protect their children (like my great-grandparents who were welcomed at the border). in other words, it’s ok to be understanding (not talking about open borders or not deporting, or allowing voting — just understanding of a human plight).   I think referring to humans as “illegals” in this climate has a dehumanizing effect and allows us to callously separate families and mindlessly  return folks (often children) to places that may be unsafe. I’m not saying not to do it, I’m saying we should care about it — and thus raise the urgency to solve the issue — not because we fear Mexicans or Muslims, but because we are dealing with hungry and scared human beings - many of them children.  It would be OK with me if part of our immigration plan included efforts to address some of the core  issues that cause parents to desperately flee their homes to find food/safety in America. Yes — meddle in assuring nutrition and safety of children across the globe. Might be less expensive than implementing a deportation policy or building/maintaining a border wall.  My point in a nutshell is that we do have to deport and we can’t allow illegally-entered folks the right to vote, but we can address the issue with consideration of humanity.  The face of immigration can just as well be the hungry/scared child as the evil Mexican.

Also curious— if a person/family is here on an extended visa or green card are they able to vote?  Not citizens, but here legally.

Re: Unbelievable- San Fran allowing Illegals to vote.
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2018, 07:54:36 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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Quote
Also curious— if a person/family is here on an extended visa or green card are they able to vote?  Not citizens, but here legally.

No, at least Federally.

I’d have no issue with permanent legal residents voting in local elections. They’re legal and they’re making a home here.


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Re: Unbelievable- San Fran allowing Illegals to vote.
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2018, 02:54:12 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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That citizens in US Territories are unable to vote in Presidential Elections doesn't excuse allowing people who are here ILLEGALLY to vote at any level. That's just some weak rationalization.

The term "illegal" was applied by the interim article as click-bait.

The original SF Bee article and the issue itself uses the terms "non-citizens" and "undocumented".

Not all non-citizens and undocumented came here illegally.

There is no law I am aware of that prevents a municipality from granting voting rights in municipal elections to whomever they want.

SF is not even the first place in the U.S. to allow non-citizens to vote in school elections.

I just don't get why folks need to get their panties in a bunch over this.
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Re: Unbelievable- San Fran allowing Illegals to vote.
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2018, 02:57:19 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Depends on what people are voting on is my stance on citizens or non citizens voting on something.
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Re: Unbelievable- San Fran allowing Illegals to vote.
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2018, 03:24:06 PM »

Offline KungPoweChicken

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This is a non-issue for me.

Re: Unbelievable- San Fran allowing Illegals to vote.
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2018, 03:25:54 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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That citizens in US Territories are unable to vote in Presidential Elections doesn't excuse allowing people who are here ILLEGALLY to vote at any level. That's just some weak rationalization.

The term "illegal" was applied by the interim article as click-bait.

The original SF Bee article and the issue itself uses the terms "non-citizens" and "undocumented".

Not all non-citizens and undocumented came here illegally.

There is no law I am aware of that prevents a municipality from granting voting rights in municipal elections to whomever they want.

SF is not even the first place in the U.S. to allow non-citizens to vote in school elections.

I just don't get why folks need to get their panties in a bunch over this.

Are undocumented people generally here legally?

I may be wrong, but isn’t that the social justice-y / PC way of saying “illegal immigrant”?


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Re: Unbelievable- San Fran allowing Illegals to vote.
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2018, 04:09:17 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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That citizens in US Territories are unable to vote in Presidential Elections doesn't excuse allowing people who are here ILLEGALLY to vote at any level. That's just some weak rationalization.

The term "illegal" was applied by the interim article as click-bait.

The original SF Bee article and the issue itself uses the terms "non-citizens" and "undocumented".

Not all non-citizens and undocumented came here illegally.

There is no law I am aware of that prevents a municipality from granting voting rights in municipal elections to whomever they want.

SF is not even the first place in the U.S. to allow non-citizens to vote in school elections.

I just don't get why folks need to get their panties in a bunch over this.

Come on now, let's not straw man this argument of illegal vs undocumented.

You don't get why folks get their panties in a bunch over this, yet you seem to be fiercely defending it with nonsensical arguments.I wonder why, then...

Re: Unbelievable- San Fran allowing Illegals to vote.
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2018, 04:09:30 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Re: Unbelievable- San Fran allowing Illegals to vote.
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2018, 04:19:13 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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Re: Unbelievable- San Fran allowing Illegals to vote.
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2018, 04:48:44 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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That citizens in US Territories are unable to vote in Presidential Elections doesn't excuse allowing people who are here ILLEGALLY to vote at any level. That's just some weak rationalization.

The term "illegal" was applied by the interim article as click-bait.

The original SF Bee article and the issue itself uses the terms "non-citizens" and "undocumented".

Not all non-citizens and undocumented came here illegally.

There is no law I am aware of that prevents a municipality from granting voting rights in municipal elections to whomever they want.

SF is not even the first place in the U.S. to allow non-citizens to vote in school elections.

I just don't get why folks need to get their panties in a bunch over this.

Are undocumented people generally here legally?

I may be wrong, but isn’t that the social justice-y / PC way of saying “illegal immigrant”?

A huge number of undocumented immigrants came here legally and then overstayed their visas.  That is not a federal criminal offense.  It is a civil violation.

In recent years the number of undocumented that came into the country legally (and then overstayed) has exceeded the number that entered the country illegally (which is a federal criminal misdemeanor).

And then there is the issue of the limbo state of undocumented minors, who may or may not be registered via the D.A.C.A. program.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.
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Re: Unbelievable- San Fran allowing Illegals to vote.
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2018, 04:54:15 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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That citizens in US Territories are unable to vote in Presidential Elections doesn't excuse allowing people who are here ILLEGALLY to vote at any level. That's just some weak rationalization.

The term "illegal" was applied by the interim article as click-bait.

The original SF Bee article and the issue itself uses the terms "non-citizens" and "undocumented".

Not all non-citizens and undocumented came here illegally.

There is no law I am aware of that prevents a municipality from granting voting rights in municipal elections to whomever they want.

SF is not even the first place in the U.S. to allow non-citizens to vote in school elections.

I just don't get why folks need to get their panties in a bunch over this.

Are undocumented people generally here legally?

I may be wrong, but isn’t that the social justice-y / PC way of saying “illegal immigrant”?

A huge number of undocumented immigrants came here legally and then overstayed their visas.  That is not a federal criminal offense.  It is a civil violation.

In recent years the number of undocumented that came into the country legally (and then overstayed) has exceeded the number that entered the country illegally (which is a federal criminal misdemeanor).

And then there is the issue of the limbo state of undocumented minors, who may or may not be registered via the D.A.C.A. program.

Sounds like Congress needs to change the criminal code.  Regardless, though, they’re not here legally.


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