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Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #285 on: July 21, 2018, 11:58:32 AM »

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Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #286 on: July 21, 2018, 01:34:40 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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I don't see a difference either. Also, the extent to which dictators like Hitler, Stalin and Mao killed people weren't known worldwide until they were out of power. I can't help but wonder the extent of how heinous Putin is as a mass murderer until he is gone from power.

Hitler,  Stalin and Mao killed millions of people.  Your looking at 10-12 million, 20-25 million, and 30-45 million.

Quote
Under Putin
2012
7 July – Alexander Khodzinsky was stabbed to death by local businessman and former deputy mayor Gennady Zhigarev in Tulun, Irkutsk Oblast. Khodzinsky campaigned against abusive and illegal practices in the construction of a shopping mall in the town center since 2007 and would regular complain to president Dmitry Medvedev and governor Dmitry Mezentsev about the issue.[134]
5 December – Kazbek Gekkiev was shot dead at a street in Nalchik, Kabardino-Balkaria, after receiving death threats from local extremists. Gekkiev worked for various local TV programs in the republic.[135]
2013
9 July – Akhmednabi Akhmednabiyev was killed while driving just 50 metres from his house on the outskirts of Makhachkala, Dagestan, after receiving numerous death threats. Akhmednabiyev was the deputy editor of the newspaper Novoe Delo and regularly wrote about the politics of the republic and human rights issues in the North Caucasus. He was previously the victim of an assassination attempt back in January 2013.[136][137][138][139]
2014
1 August – Timur Kuashev was abducted from his home and later found dead in Nalchik, Kabardino-Balkaria.[140] Kuashev worked for the magazine Dosh and received death threats and was previously stopped by local police a number of times.[141]
2016
March 31 – Dmitry Tsilikin was stabbed to death in his flat in Saint Petersburg. Tsilikin wrote for many independent media outlets and mainly focused on social issues and human rights.[142] The suspected killer is neo-nazi Sergey Kosyrev. The murder is attributed to Tsilikin's homosexual orientation.[143]
2017
March 17 – Yevgeny Khamaganov died of unexplained causes in Ulan-Ude, Buryatia. Khamaganov was known for writing articles that criticized the federal government and was allegedly beaten by unknown assailants on March 10.[144]
April 19 – Journalist and former prisoner of conscience Nikolay Andrushchenko died in Saint Petersburg from wounds that he received from a severe beating by unknown assailants on March 9. Andrushchenko was the co-founder of the newspaper Novy Petersburg and was previously jailed in 2009 by a city court for "libel and extremism".[145]
May 24 – Dmitry Popkov was found dead from gunshot wounds at a bathhouse close to his home in Minusinsk, Krasnoyarsk Krai. Popkov was the chief editor of the newspaper Ton-M and was known for investigating police corruption.[146]
September 8 - The body of Andrey Ruskov was found in the Bira River in Birobidzhan, Jewish Autonomous Oblast. Ruskov worked for the Bestvideo Broadcasting Studio.[147]
2018
April 15 – Maksim Borodin died of injuries from falling out of a window at his apartment in Yekaterinburg, Sverdlovsk Oblast, on April 12. Authorities classified the death as suicide while colleagues reject the notion. Borodin regularly wrote on crime, corruption, and the recent involvement of Russian mercenaries in Syria.[148]
Journalists killed reporting on Chechnya

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia#Under_Putin

He has killed some and truth be told it is a way life to kill journalists in Russia if you read the wikipedia.   But to compare it Hitler, Mao and Statlin is on a much smaller scale.   They killed millions.   Either, you are blatantly unaware of history or you lack perspective.   All too often we are quick to compare folks to Hitler but often they are not even remotely on the same scale.   Take the State of Ohio,  Hitler killed enough to kill all the people of the state.  Mao killed enough to kill everyone in California, Stalin the population of Texas.

I think we resort to the comparisons too easily these days.  People do not undersand history.
Quote
Godwin's law (or Godwin's rule of Hitler analogies)[1][2] is an internet adage asserting that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hitler approaches 1";[2][3] that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Adolf Hitler or his deeds. Promulgated by the American attorney and author Mike Godwin in 1990,[2] Godwin's law originally referred specifically to Usenet newsgroup discussions.[4] It is now applied to any threaded online discussion, such as Internet forums, chat rooms, and comment threads, as well as to speeches, articles, and other rhetoric[5][6] where reductio ad Hitlerum occurs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Now all these guys and Putin all bad fellows and politics by murder is never good.  A lot on the right think there are a plethora of dead bodies surrounding the Clinton's too.   It can't be proved and is a stretch but it is out there folks.

That being said, I think Putin is a clear and present danger.   He will kill to reach his goals.   We all know he was behind the hacks because nothing in Russia happens without his permission.  But it was pointless to indict these guys because they will never be turned over.   It was the FBI again trying to influence policy and politics with their actions.   I agree with them here.

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #287 on: July 21, 2018, 01:50:28 PM »

Online nickagneta

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Quote
I don't see a difference either. Also, the extent to which dictators like Hitler, Stalin and Mao killed people weren't known worldwide until they were out of power. I can't help but wonder the extent of how heinous Putin is as a mass murderer until he is gone from power.

Hitler,  Stalin and Mao killed millions of people.  Your looking at 10-12 million, 20-25 million, and 30-45 million.

Quote
Under Putin
2012
7 July – Alexander Khodzinsky was stabbed to death by local businessman and former deputy mayor Gennady Zhigarev in Tulun, Irkutsk Oblast. Khodzinsky campaigned against abusive and illegal practices in the construction of a shopping mall in the town center since 2007 and would regular complain to president Dmitry Medvedev and governor Dmitry Mezentsev about the issue.[134]
5 December – Kazbek Gekkiev was shot dead at a street in Nalchik, Kabardino-Balkaria, after receiving death threats from local extremists. Gekkiev worked for various local TV programs in the republic.[135]
2013
9 July – Akhmednabi Akhmednabiyev was killed while driving just 50 metres from his house on the outskirts of Makhachkala, Dagestan, after receiving numerous death threats. Akhmednabiyev was the deputy editor of the newspaper Novoe Delo and regularly wrote about the politics of the republic and human rights issues in the North Caucasus. He was previously the victim of an assassination attempt back in January 2013.[136][137][138][139]
2014
1 August – Timur Kuashev was abducted from his home and later found dead in Nalchik, Kabardino-Balkaria.[140] Kuashev worked for the magazine Dosh and received death threats and was previously stopped by local police a number of times.[141]
2016
March 31 – Dmitry Tsilikin was stabbed to death in his flat in Saint Petersburg. Tsilikin wrote for many independent media outlets and mainly focused on social issues and human rights.[142] The suspected killer is neo-nazi Sergey Kosyrev. The murder is attributed to Tsilikin's homosexual orientation.[143]
2017
March 17 – Yevgeny Khamaganov died of unexplained causes in Ulan-Ude, Buryatia. Khamaganov was known for writing articles that criticized the federal government and was allegedly beaten by unknown assailants on March 10.[144]
April 19 – Journalist and former prisoner of conscience Nikolay Andrushchenko died in Saint Petersburg from wounds that he received from a severe beating by unknown assailants on March 9. Andrushchenko was the co-founder of the newspaper Novy Petersburg and was previously jailed in 2009 by a city court for "libel and extremism".[145]
May 24 – Dmitry Popkov was found dead from gunshot wounds at a bathhouse close to his home in Minusinsk, Krasnoyarsk Krai. Popkov was the chief editor of the newspaper Ton-M and was known for investigating police corruption.[146]
September 8 - The body of Andrey Ruskov was found in the Bira River in Birobidzhan, Jewish Autonomous Oblast. Ruskov worked for the Bestvideo Broadcasting Studio.[147]
2018
April 15 – Maksim Borodin died of injuries from falling out of a window at his apartment in Yekaterinburg, Sverdlovsk Oblast, on April 12. Authorities classified the death as suicide while colleagues reject the notion. Borodin regularly wrote on crime, corruption, and the recent involvement of Russian mercenaries in Syria.[148]
Journalists killed reporting on Chechnya

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia#Under_Putin

He has killed some and truth be told it is a way life to kill journalists in Russia if you read the wikipedia.   But to compare it Hitler, Mao and Statlin is on a much smaller scale.   They killed millions.   Either, you are blatantly unaware of history or you lack perspective.   All too often we are quick to compare folks to Hitler but often they are not even remotely on the same scale.   Take the State of Ohio,  Hitler killed enough to kill all the people of the state.  Mao killed enough to kill everyone in California, Stalin the population of Texas.

I think we resort to the comparisons too easily these days.  People do not undersand history.
Quote
Godwin's law (or Godwin's rule of Hitler analogies)[1][2] is an internet adage asserting that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hitler approaches 1";[2][3] that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Adolf Hitler or his deeds. Promulgated by the American attorney and author Mike Godwin in 1990,[2] Godwin's law originally referred specifically to Usenet newsgroup discussions.[4] It is now applied to any threaded online discussion, such as Internet forums, chat rooms, and comment threads, as well as to speeches, articles, and other rhetoric[5][6] where reductio ad Hitlerum occurs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Now all these guys and Putin all bad fellows and politics by murder is never good.  A lot on the right think there are a plethora of dead bodies surrounding the Clinton's too.   It can't be proved and is a stretch but it is out there folks.

That being said, I think Putin is a clear and present danger.   He will kill to reach his goals.   We all know he was behind the hacks because nothing in Russia happens without his permission.  But it was pointless to indict these guys because they will never be turned over.   It was the FBI again trying to influence policy and politics with their actions.   I agree with them here.
Sorry but I am aware of history, quite aware to be certain and I don't lack perception. What Hitler, Stalin and Mao did was genocide. Its a form of mass murder. But in my moral compass I do not judge them any worse than I would any mass murderer. It takes a special type of evil person to kill in multiples whether it be in the tens, hundreds, thousands or millions. To me you're an evil, despicable human being either why. That's my perspective and I am sticking to it.

Also, I really could do without the condescending tone from your post. Perhaps ask a question why I would view those people as equals instead of pulling out the, "you must not know what you're talking about" words and tude.

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #288 on: July 21, 2018, 03:15:45 PM »

Offline Greenback

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Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #289 on: July 21, 2018, 03:16:15 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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What Hitler, Stalin and Mao did was genocide. Its a form of mass murder. But in my moral compass I do not judge them any worse than I would any mass murderer. It takes a special type of evil person to kill in multiples whether it be in the tens, hundreds, thousands or millions. To me you're an evil, despicable human being either why. That's my perspective and I am sticking to it.

Your allowed your perspective of course, I do not agree with it.  There definitely are degrees of evil.  What we can agree on is that they are all evil.

Quote
Also, I really could do without the condescending tone from your post. Perhaps ask a question why I would view those people as equals instead of pulling out the, "you must not know what you're talking about" words and tud

Didn't you say this:

Quote
I don't see a difference either. Also, the extent to which dictators like Hitler, Stalin and Mao killed people weren't known worldwide until they were out of power. I can't help but wonder the extent of how heinous Putin is as a mass murderer until he is gone from power. We already know he murders. Probably we don't know just how much.

Thanks for explaining your reasoning,  my comments were to statement above.   I don't agree with you and think that we compare folks to Hitler way too often.  I am sorry you did not like my tone, but understand I have Jewish Grandmother and these comparisons are most of the time like this one, a gross exaggeration that does not take the Holocaust into it's perspective.

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #290 on: July 21, 2018, 03:47:37 PM »

Offline Greenback

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Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #291 on: July 21, 2018, 05:10:45 PM »

Online nickagneta

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What Hitler, Stalin and Mao did was genocide. Its a form of mass murder. But in my moral compass I do not judge them any worse than I would any mass murderer. It takes a special type of evil person to kill in multiples whether it be in the tens, hundreds, thousands or millions. To me you're an evil, despicable human being either why. That's my perspective and I am sticking to it.

Your allowed your perspective of course, I do not agree with it.  There definitely are degrees of evil.  What we can agree on is that they are all evil.

Quote
Also, I really could do without the condescending tone from your post. Perhaps ask a question why I would view those people as equals instead of pulling out the, "you must not know what you're talking about" words and tud

Didn't you say this:

Quote
I don't see a difference either. Also, the extent to which dictators like Hitler, Stalin and Mao killed people weren't known worldwide until they were out of power. I can't help but wonder the extent of how heinous Putin is as a mass murderer until he is gone from power. We already know he murders. Probably we don't know just how much.

Thanks for explaining your reasoning,  my comments were to statement above.   I don't agree with you and think that I compare folks to Hitler too often. I am sorry you did not like my tone, but understand I have Jewish Grandmother and these comparisons are most of the time like this one, a gross exaggeration that does not take the Holocaust into it's perspective.
Then you need to reign in your emotions before posting. Regarding my comment about not knowing the extent of Hilter, Mao and Stalin's evil until they were out of power. That's true. When they were in power they controlled the media and info regarding the genocides they committed. Only after they were ousted did we learn the full extent.

Putin right now is in power and controls the info being released and media in Russia. What I am saying is that there is a pretty good chance we don't know about the extent of Putin's evil.

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #292 on: July 21, 2018, 07:41:56 PM »

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On a scale of carnage, Hitler was much worse than Putin.

But, I get nick’s point. Evil is evil. If Putin needed to kill millions of people to retain power, I expect he would.


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Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #293 on: July 21, 2018, 09:45:33 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Then you need to reign in your emotions before posting. Regarding my comment about not knowing the extent of Hilter, Mao and Stalin's evil until they were out of power. That's true. When they were in power they controlled the media and info regarding the genocides they committed. Only after they were ousted did we learn the full extent.

What are you basing your statement we did know the extent on?   I would like to hear the historal source.    We knew about Hitler, Stalin and Mao prior to them being out of power because people fled their countries and told us. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/world-history/holocaust-allied-forces-knew-before-concentration-camp-discovery-us-uk-soviets-secret-documents-a7688036.html

This is actual history, not your opinion or hyperbole. 

I swear talking history here, is an exercise in futility, I know I have to realize that I have a degree in it and most do not.   But folks just toss about their opinions and make ridiculous statements and get angry and call people emotional when they their BS is called out.  That is exactly what happened here.   You compared a murderer to the worst mass murderers in history of mankind.

I am perfectly calm and I retract my apology to you.  Have a nice evening.



Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #294 on: July 22, 2018, 12:21:45 AM »

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https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-ii/american-response-to-the-holocaust

Quote
The American public discovered the full extent of the Holocaust only when the Allied armies liberated the extermination and concentration camps at the end of World War II. And as historians struggled to understand what had happened, attention increasingly focused on the inadequate American response and what lay behind it. It remains today the subject of great debate. 

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #295 on: July 22, 2018, 01:28:17 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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On a scale of carnage, Hitler was much worse than Putin.

But, I get nick’s point. Evil is evil. If Putin needed to kill millions of people to retain power, I expect he would.

That's all as to what I was attempting to convey :).

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #296 on: July 22, 2018, 01:28:47 AM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #297 on: July 22, 2018, 02:04:09 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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We knew about Hitler, Stalin and Mao prior to them being out of power because people fled their countries and told us. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/world-history/holocaust-allied-forces-knew-before-concentration-camp-discovery-us-uk-soviets-secret-documents-a7688036.html

Yeah, I was just going to mention this, so TP :), not to mention the fact that people knew about The Holodomor, the assassination of Trotsky, and even Stalin's execution of Poland's officer corps, etc., in the Katyn massacre, which, ironically, was first discovered by the Nazis in 1943 and who then subsequently attempted to use it for propaganda purposes, and that's before we even get into the Great Purge, the generals, etc., who were executed as a result of their failures during The Winter War, and the detention of German prisoners following the Battle of Stalingrad in the "labor camps in the east", so while, yes, we might not have known everything, I think it's pretty difficult to argue that we didn't at least know enough about the nature of Stalin's regime prior to his death and the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #298 on: July 22, 2018, 02:05:13 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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Coincidence that Jarrod Uthoff is headed to Zenit St Petersburg?  I think not.

Welp :-\.

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #299 on: July 22, 2018, 02:08:36 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-ii/american-response-to-the-holocaust

Quote
The American public discovered the full extent of the Holocaust only when the Allied armies liberated the extermination and concentration camps at the end of World War II. And as historians struggled to understand what had happened, attention increasingly focused on the inadequate American response and what lay behind it. It remains today the subject of great debate.

Unfortunately, not to mention most disturbingly, imo, that same article also states the following -

Quote
FIRST NEWS OF THE HOLOCAUST

The extermination of European Jewry began when the German army invaded the Soviet Union in June 1941.



Talk about fake news :o. I just...I can't.