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Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #270 on: July 19, 2018, 08:29:43 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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man this thread has gotten pretty derailed from the original topic.  Can we all get back to the topic?  It is an important one, and I for one don't want it to get locked because it got off track.

I mean we pretty much all accept that Putin is a thug / mass murderer / general bad guy.  If that needs to be debated (it doesn't) then maybe a new thread on Putin.

Well, part of the reason that we should all be worried about Russia is that they are, in fact, extremely dangerous.  There are multiple ways to underestimate Russia.  One is to trust them, like our idiot President does.  Another is to not believe that they're dangerous, or to believe that their government isn't all that much different than ours.  While having peace with Russia is a desirable goal, it needs to be a peace that recognizes (at least internally) that Putin is a KGB psychopath who generally doesn't operate in good faith.

Yes, because if history since the "end" of the Cold War has shown us anything, it's that the United States has operated in nothing but good faith towards Russia ::). Give me a break ::).

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #271 on: July 19, 2018, 08:29:58 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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Anyway, as to what I'm saying is that the situation pertaining to political murders in Russia is far more complex than it is often presented, here.

There are very fine people on both sides of the murder weapons?

Quote
In all seriousness, you keep saying this stuff is more complex than it's being presented but never following up on how. Can you please specify some of the ways in which it's more complex? Otherwise it just sounds like you're criticizing labeling a murderer as a murderer without any real underlying basis, which will and should bring a lot of pushback.

Yes, that's exactly as to what I'm saying, here ::), and gee, I'm terribly sorry that I had to step out for a bit ::), but sure, I have absolutely no problem in terms of specifying some of the ways in which the situation is more complex. Let's begin with your previous post, shall we?

Friendly reminder that in addition to political opponents Putin isn't above murdering hundreds of everyday Russian citizens in actual false flag terrorist attacks to push a war and win re-election.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2016/08/vladimir-putin-1999-russian-apartment-house-bombings-was-putin-responsible/

Okay, there's a lot to unpack, here, even in your sentence, and, admittedly, I'm probably not the right person to try to explain everything, but I'll do my best, anyway :-\.

Edit: I spent hours compiling all of this so you guys sure as hell better appreciate it, lol ;D.

Anyway, first, Putin was not up for re-election in 1999 having only been on the job as the acting Prime Minster since August 9 of that year via appointment by then-president Boris Yeltsin, who, during the previous 18 months, had already managed to hire and fire four PMs ::); and while Putin would officially take over as the acting President following Yeltsin's resignation on the final day of the 20th century and continue in that capacity for the next 4+ months before being officially sworn in as President on May 7, 2000 following his victory in said election on March 26 of that same year, at the time of apartment bombings in September, Putin was, essentially, the political equivalent of a substitute teacher in that he was ostensibly instructing the class but was hardly setting the curriculum/lesson plans, lol ;D, as at that time, Russia was being "governed" by a group of Oligarchs known as "The Family", with the most prominent of those figures being one of the shadiest and most vile individuals imaginable in Boris Berezovsky, who engineered Putin's rise to power. Talk about a puppet master.

Secondly, while the apartment bombings in Moscow received the most attention, they only made for two of the four attacks that were perpetrated between September 4-16, and prior to that, a bomb had gone off in a Moscow mall on August 31, so, unfortunately, these were not isolated incidents, nor did they serve as the catalyst for the start of the Second Chechen War, which had already begun about a month earlier when a force of somewhere between 1,500 and 3,000 Chechen fighters/rebels and Islamic militants invaded neighboring Dagestan, capturing 12 villages before being repulsed by Russian forces.

Additionally, it has been alleged that Berezovsky, who had previously been in contact with the rebel commanders who led the attack, played an integral role in orchestrating what was supposed to be an operation that would provoke a war with Russia.

Third, the apparent "smoking gun" that would seem to prove that the FSB had been the architect of the bombings simply doesn't make any sense. Known as the Ryazan Incident, on September 22, a bomb was supposedly discovered in the basement of an apartment building in the city of, well, Ryazan. According to David Satter, albeit not in the linked piece and, admittedly, this is a summary of what you can find in his book The Less You Know, The Better You Sleep: Russia's Road to Terror and Dictatorship under Yeltsin and Putin -

Quote
March 13, 2000

Russian journalist, Pavel Voloshin, publishes an article in the Novaya Gazeta newspaper revealing an exclusive interview with a soldier named Aleksei Pinyaev. Private Pinyaev’s military unit had been posted to Ryazan in the fall of 1999 and assigned to guard an arms depot located on the military base. Curious, Pinyaev and a comrade looked inside the warehouse and instead of finding weapons, found fifty kilogram sacks marked sugar. They used some it for their tea but tasted something so repugnant that out of fear for their health they had a specialist test it to make sure they hadn’t been poisoned. The test results revealed the substance was hexogen [which was the explosive used in the other bombings during September of '99].


Here's the problem with that explanation: in a conversation with a friend of mine concerning said topic, he pointed out to me, as I am not a chemist in any sense of the word and flunked that class along with seemingly everything else in high school, lol ;D, that 1). RDX (Hexogen) is insoluble in water, so it's impossible to "make some tea with it" without noticing that the "sugar" wouldn't dissolve in the water; 2). RDX is tasteless, so the tea would not have a revolting, well, taste; and 3). RDX is toxic, and the median oral lethal dose would be about 2 spoonfuls - i.e. a few grams of the substance - and yet, surprisingly, not only have private Pinyaev and his friend survived - but they also have reported no symptoms of acute RDX poisoning, so, like, wat? :P 

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/blog/september-1999-russian-apartment-bombings-timeline

Fourth, the event that set the wheels in motion, so to speak, in terms of Russian planning for a military campaign in Chechnya came on March 5, 1999, at the Grozny (the capital of Chechnya in case you didn't know) Airport. According to The Washington Post -

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Gen. Gennady Shpigun, the Russian Interior Ministry representative in Chechnya, boarded a Tu-134 passenger plane for Moscow. Masked gunmen grabbed Shpigun and bundled him off the plane and into a waiting car.

The kidnapping outraged officials in Moscow, but it was not unusual. In the aftermath of the first Chechen war, hostage-taking became a flourishing business as Chechnya's economy hit bottom. Foreign aid workers, clergymen, journalists, law enforcement officials, soldiers and bystanders were sucked into the trade in people.

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When the Shpigun kidnapping occurred, Sergei Stepashin, then the interior minister, had already been through a painful personal experience with Chechnya. He was involved in planning the disastrous first war that ended with a Russian withdrawal, and had been fired by Yeltsin after Basayev led a rebel raid on a hospital in 1995 in which more than 100 civilians were killed.

Shpigun's kidnapping, despite Maskhadov's assurances, was "over the top," Stepashin recalled. At the time, Stepashin warned of tough measures against Chechnya if Shpigun were not released in three days. The ultimatum was ignored, but Moscow remained cautious about leading the country into another Chechen war.

In an interview, Stepashin said he started planning to cordon off the region after the Shpigun kidnapping, a plan that envisioned Russian troops taking northern Chechnya all the way to the Terek River. The plan, as it was often discussed, would allow Russia to launch strikes from the north deeper into Chechnya to destroy the rebels' "bases," according to Stepashin.

One of those in on the discussions last summer was Putin. But Putin recalled later that the cordon alone was "pointless and technically impossible," apparently because of Chechnya's rugged terrain.

Putin's role leading up to the war is opaque, but as head of the Federal Security Service, Russia's domestic successor to the KGB, he attended key meetings on Chechnya, officials said. The Dagestan raid came just at the moment of a power shift in Moscow, and the link between the events has never been clear.

Just two days after Basayev's fighters crossed the border Aug. 7 into a district of Dagestan, Stepashin was fired and and replaced by Putin. Stepashin said he did not think the timing was connected to Chechnya but rather to his perceived weakness as a potential successor to Yeltsin. The parliamentary elections were looming and Yeltsin's critics were growing stronger.

From there, Chechnya continued to destabilize -

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After a band of Chechens besieged an Interior Ministry outpost in Dagestan in late May, Russia took a step that it had not considered since the end of the first war--helicopter gunships fired 10 missiles on a rebel base along the border. Stepashin said 44 ministry troops were killed in border clashes in early 1999.

In this mountainous region, Basayev and Khattab had built fortified bases, according to Anton Surikov, a former Russian military intelligence officer who is now staff director of a Russian parliamentary committee. Surikov has known Basayev since the rebel leader led a group of Chechen volunteers in Abkhazia's war for independence from Georgia in 1992-93.

Surikov said Russian officials had indications that Basayev was planning something on the Dagestani border. "It was not being hidden," he said. "There was a certain panic here. There was a feeling of complete helplessness."

A senior Kremlin official close to Yeltsin said in an interview in August, "The dates [of the Basayev assault] were definitely known several days before." But, he added, "the . . . area is hilly and difficult to guard. There are hundreds of different paths, plenty of canyons, mountain paths. There is no border, actually. . . . That is why it is not possible just to line up soldiers to guard the border."

Quote
Basayev's reasons for staging the dramatic cross-border incursion, and his reading of how Russia would respond, are not clear. He declared at the time that he hoped to trigger an uprising in Dagestan, rallying support for the creation of an Islamic state. But it was a futile effort. The raid triggered alarms in Dagestan, which is a mosaic of ethnic groups, and many villages began arming themselves to fight the Chechens. Eventually, Russian troops beat them back.

According to Stepashin, the planning for a crackdown on Chechnya was already underway. He said the Russian authorities had intelligence in June of a possible attack, and "we were planning to implement these measures" for a cordon around Chechnya "irrespective of Basayev's assault."

Stepashin said he chaired a meeting of the Kremlin Security Council in July and "we all came to the conclusion that there was a huge hole on our border which won't be closed if we don't [advance] to the Terek. It was a purely military decision."

Stepashin said that after his dismissal, Putin merely picked up the plans he had put in place and continued with them.

"We were planning to reach the Terek River in August or September," Stepashin recently told the newspaper Nezavisimaya Gazeta. "So this was going to happen, even if there had been no explosions in Moscow. I was working actively on tightening borders with Chechnya, preparing for an active offensive. So Vladimir Putin has not invented anything new here."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2000/03/20/miscalculations-paved-path-to-chechen-war/e675f17a-d286-4b5e-b33a-708d819d43f0/?utm_term=.fff563179a98

Finally, why was Chechnya the source of so much violence throughout Russia during the period and for the longest time, afterward? Well, while the region had been making the preparations to forcibly remove itself from the Russian Federation following the fall of the Soviet Union and had actually declared its independence in 1991, the First Chechen War was, in fact, and I am in no way making this up, literally launched by Yeltsin and his cronies in the belief that a "small, victorious war" would boost his popularity :o, which was, by 1994, completely in the crapper as a result of the state of the country that had come about, in large part, due to Yeltsin's adherence/pursuance to/of the economic policies, in particular, that were being dictated by Washington.

Moreover, by the end of the conflict in 1996, 100,000 people had been killed, many more had been displaced as a result of the fighting that left devastation that the country had not seen since the Second World War, countless atrocities were committed on both sides, and to top it all off, Russia was humiliated in defeat, and yet at no point during the carnage did Yeltsin ever encounter any kind of pushback from the Clinton Administration in the face of such brutality, with our President, himself, opting, instead, to not only regard the war as "an internal matter" :o, but also, and this is my personal favorite ::), to literally compare the conflict to The Civil War :o, and yet not once was Boris Yeltsin ever vilified for this in The West.

You tell me as to who constitutes as being a mass murderer.


Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #272 on: July 19, 2018, 09:17:42 AM »

Online slamtheking

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WASHINGTON ó Two weeks before his inauguration, Donald J. Trump was shown highly classified intelligence indicating that President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia had personally ordered complex cyberattacks to sway the 2016 American election.

The evidence included texts and emails from Russian military officers and information gleaned from a top-secret source close to Mr. Putin, who had described to the C.I.A. how the Kremlin decided to execute its campaign of hacking and disinformation.

I find this fascinating. If theyíve got very specific information like this, wouldnít you think theyíd have more definitive information on whether there was actual collusion?  I have a hard time believing that we got into Putinís inner-circle, but donít know if he was working for Trump or not.

Itís an important question: is Trump compromised? If so, release the info and impeach him. If not, drop the probe but hammer him on terrible and dangerous foreign policy.

Why do you assume it has to be an either / or at this point?  I feel it is completely possible that Mueller has incriminating information on individuals in the Trump campaign, but is gathering MORE information to make the case lock solid. 

I mean if there was ever a case that you are investigating that you needed to have as much proof as possible, this is it.  With the additional complications of the case being slowly leaked out (NRA coordination with Russia) I don't see why we would expect it to be wrapped up by now?  Wouldn't this be one of the most intensely investigated cases ever?  Wouldn't the burden of proof be extremely high?

Maybe Paul Manafort's cooperation with the probe is the final evidence that Mueller is trying to acquire? 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-manafort/judge-denies-manaforts-request-to-suppress-evidence-idUSKBN1K82W4

With Manafort's judge recent throwing out Manafort's request to suppress evidence, it gets more likely that Manafort will flip.  There have been multiple reports saying that Trump himself is worried that Manafort will filp.  Manafort was in the meeting at Trump Tower, Manafort was reportedly advising Trump both before and after he was with the campaign. 

As others have said, (me as well) we just don't know enough about what is going on to even say how far the investigation should be at this point.

The idea of indefinite, largely unlimited investigations with expansive budgets and limited oversight  make me squeamish.  Iíd like to see some reasonable suspicion ó not even probable cause ó before undermining somebodyís entire Presidency.

Whatís a reasonable length of time for this to take? 2 years? 4? 8?  Iím just not sure what new evidence there will be. Again, if youíve got somebody within Putin's Inner-circle sharing information, Iím surprised that thereís not a definitive answer by now.

I hear what you are saying. 

But just because the general public doesn't know if there is reasonable suspicion or probable cause that doesn't mean that the FBI doesn't already know that.  If Mueller already knows that, why on earth would he leak that information until he was ready to submit his findings?  How would that help the investigation?  How would that help the country?  Why should they make it public before they are ready?

It isn't like the investigation isn't proving fruitful.  Mueller has already indicted Michael Flynn, Paul Manafort, Richard Gates, & George Papadapoulos - all members of Trump's campaign.   Sessions, Trump Jr, Kushner,  Roger Stone have all been reported to have lied about contacts with Russians and/ or Wikileaks during the campaign.   Mueller reportedly has the phone and computer of Erik Prince.  Manafort has been reportedly considering cooperating with the investigation.

I am not a legal expert, so I don't know how long it should last.  I don't however, believe the FBI needs to report to the public prior to completing their investigation.  I don't think the country benefits from incomplete findings. 

There has been bi-partisan support for Mueller to follow his investigation through to conclusion.  There is a bi-partisan resolution scheduled to submitted tomorrow commending Mueller for his investigation as well as reaffirming support for the intelligence communities findings.

https://twitter.com/ChrisCoons/status/1019675342569648128

The main thing I want as a citizen, is a public report that describes in as great as detail as possible the findings of the investigation, either way. 
This.

complaints about Mueller not concluding his investigation by now or complaints about the cost of his investigation reek of the efforts to get Trump off the hook.  It's not unheard of for police stings/undercover operations to run for years on criminals who are at a much lower level than POTUS (nevermind with the help of masters of hiding illegal activity both native and foreign).  In order to do anything about those placed highly in our govt (if this does indeed go that high), Mueller needs to have as airtight a case as possible with indisputable proof of wrongdoing.  The way this administration lies, misdirects and ignores the truth is frightening -- about as frightening as the cult-like followers that swallow every falsehood uttered and will take any avenue to let their 'hero' and his ilk get away with anything.  anything less than airtight will give the administration and its followers the minimal opportunity needed to cry 'Fake News' or 'Witch Hunt'.

I don't want this rushed just to make some inpatient people happy or to provide people with a loophole to get off the hook.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 09:23:33 AM by slamtheking »

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #273 on: July 19, 2018, 09:21:55 AM »

Offline stes

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Iíve never engaged in a political discussion on this forums, I hardly ever post anything here - I guess Iím more of a lurker, but Iíve always enjoyed the politeness, thought given to your own and other postersí opinions and I thought it was a remarkable place in the entire web. It was until recently, when those last few political topics have changed the quality of discussion and it makes me sad and quite frankly afraid.
Itís because the ongoing polarisation of society that we endured here in Poland is leading us towards the a place, where we can no longer argue with each other. I mean some family members donít talk to each other at all because of the grudges we hold against each other after having some disagreements that donít involve family or personal issues, but rather whether one option is doing the right thing or wrong to our country. It looks like the entire western world is having his issue.
I guess itís not a new thing for you guys, as well - this polarisation was visible during the last campaign or even before, when Obama couldnít find a common group with the republican majority in the parliament. It just new for this board to be like that and I just miss my safe place, where I could try to learn a different political or social views of Americans without feeling like Iím looking at the tv screen.
Iíll try to keep my views to myself, the lurker in me is strong and Iíd rather stay in the sidelines. Iíll say this, though - itís quite scary to me that the so called leader of the democratic world is much keener to compliment and enjoys more the company of the dictators of this world, while bashing the president and PMs of Canada, Germany, France etc. itís just that there was this idealistic view of America that was spread out during my lifetime, that this country is so attached to the values of democracy, that it makes me disappointed and afraid for the future.
I get it - if your government decides that the to-date marriage with NATO isnít working for you, you have every right to change, who you perceive as an ally or a foe. I just expect the decency of admitting it, when being called upon that shift, just like a wife and the children can expect the truth, when papa is leaving, lol.
And one last thing - somebody said in one of those topics that the EU is dead and that Turkey, Hungary and Poland isolating themselves from the union are the proof that thatís true. And while it might be true that the EU is a corpse, two of those countries are fully authoritarian, while Poland is run by a member of parliament that is a lone decision maker without holding any constitutional power and theyíre trying to force the law that would increase his influence on the local governments, judiciary system and media - which the EU sees as a threat to democracy, which is supposed to be the fundamental value of the union.
Sorry for a longish post, but I needed to vent. And letís this banner 18 in the rafters  ;D

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #274 on: July 19, 2018, 10:04:28 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Yeah, the ďheís only killed dozens rather than millionsĒ defense isnít that compelling.

So you really see no difference, then, between guys like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Putin? Is that as to what you're trying to convey, here?

No, thatís the false equivalency you tried to set up by bringing those names into the conversation.


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Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #275 on: July 19, 2018, 01:12:55 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Quote
March 13, 2000

Russian journalist, Pavel Voloshin, publishes an article in the Novaya Gazeta newspaper revealing an exclusive interview with a soldier named Aleksei Pinyaev. Private Pinyaevís military unit had been posted to Ryazan in the fall of 1999 and assigned to guard an arms depot located on the military base. Curious, Pinyaev and a comrade looked inside the warehouse and instead of finding weapons, found fifty kilogram sacks marked sugar. They used some it for their tea but tasted something so repugnant that out of fear for their health they had a specialist test it to make sure they hadnít been poisoned. The test results revealed the substance was hexogen [which was the explosive used in the other bombings during September of '99].


Here's the problem with that explanation: in a conversation with a friend of mine concerning said topic, he pointed out to me, as I am not a chemist in any sense of the word and flunked that class along with seemingly everything else in high school, lol ;D, that 1). RDX (Hexogen) is insoluble in water, so it's impossible to "make some tea with it" without noticing that the "sugar" wouldn't dissolve in the water; 2). RDX is tasteless, so the tea would not have a revolting, well, taste; and 3). RDX is toxic, and the median oral lethal dose would be about 2 spoonfuls - i.e. a few grams of the substance - and yet, surprisingly, not only have private Pinyaev and his friend survived - but they also have reported no symptoms of acute RDX poisoning, so, like, wat? :P 


This is a naive analysis.  RDX is usually packed using some combination of stearic acid, plasticizing wax or petroleum oil.   All these things would impart a nasty flavor to a tea, even if the RDX didn't dissolve into it.

And without knowledge of how much, if any was actually ingested it is silly to speculate around the fact that they didn't actually get RDX poisoning.  After all, if the RDX isn't actually dissolved they could have tasted the tea and been repulsed by the smell/taste of wax and/or motor oil without actually ingesting any RDX.
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Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #276 on: July 19, 2018, 01:16:37 PM »

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Yeah, the ďheís only killed dozens rather than millionsĒ defense isnít that compelling.

So you really see no difference, then, between guys like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Putin? Is that as to what you're trying to convey, here?

No, thatís the false equivalency you tried to set up by bringing those names into the conversation.
I don't see a difference either. Also, the extent to which dictators like Hitler, Stalin and Mao killed people weren't known worldwide until they were out of power. I can't help but wonder the extent of how heinous Putin is as a mass murderer until he is gone from power. We already know he murders. Probably we don't know just how much.

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #277 on: July 19, 2018, 02:53:22 PM »

Online fairweatherfan

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sure, I have absolutely no problem in terms of specifying some of the ways in which the situation is more complex. Let's begin with your previous post, shall we?

Friendly reminder that in addition to political opponents Putin isn't above murdering hundreds of everyday Russian citizens in actual false flag terrorist attacks to push a war and win re-election.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2016/08/vladimir-putin-1999-russian-apartment-house-bombings-was-putin-responsible/

Okay, there's a lot to unpack, here, even in your sentence, and, admittedly, I'm probably not the right person to try to explain everything, but I'll do my best, anyway :-\.

Edit: I spent hours compiling all of this so you guys sure as hell better appreciate it, lol ;D.

I cut this down just for everyone else's sake but I do appreciate the effort and info.


Quote
Anyway, first, Putin was not up for re-election in 1999 having only been on the job as the acting Prime Minster since August 9 of that year via appointment by then-president Boris Yeltsin

Yeah that's my mistake on re-election, I should've said "election".

Quote
Secondly, while the apartment bombings in Moscow received the most attention, they only made for two of the four attacks that were perpetrated between September 4-16, and prior to that, a bomb had gone off in a Moscow mall on August 31, so, unfortunately, these were not isolated incidents, nor did they serve as the catalyst for the start of the Second Chechen War, which had already begun about a month earlier when a force of somewhere between 1,500 and 3,000 Chechen fighters/rebels and Islamic militants invaded neighboring Dagestan, capturing 12 villages before being repulsed by Russian forces.

They invaded Chechnya in October in large part due to public uproar about the bombings. More importantly, citing other bombings or timelines doesn't make the apt bombings not politically motivated mass murder.


Quote
Third, the apparent "smoking gun" that would seem to prove that the FSB had been the architect of the bombings simply doesn't make any sense.

This doesn't really seem relevant, the FSB admits it was hexogen and that FSB agents planted the bomb, and they changed their story several times then arrived at calling it a training exercise. The main points aren't in dispute. The "sugar in tea" story also isn't how the actual apartment bomb was found, it's allegedly about a soldier finding mislabeled hexogen being secretly stored at a military facility. It just seems like a more direct connection to the government, not the key one.

Quote
Fourth, the event that set the wheels in motion, so to speak, in terms of Russian planning for a military campaign in Chechnya came on March 5, 1999, at the Grozny (the capital of Chechnya in case you didn't know) Airport. According to The Washington Post -

Yeah there's always a lot of other history around a conflict and plenty of villains too. Again I don't see how this does anything but ground the political motives behind the mass murder in a broader context, which is great educationally but doesn't alter the morality a whit.

Quote
Finally, why was Chechnya the source of so much violence throughout Russia during the period and for the longest time, afterward? Well, while the region had been making the preparations to forcibly remove itself from the Russian Federation following the fall of the Soviet Union and had actually declared its independence in 1991, the First Chechen War was, in fact, and I am in no way making this up, literally launched by Yeltsin and his cronies in the belief that a "small, victorious war" would boost his popularity :o, which was, by 1994, completely in the crapper as a result of the state of the country that had come about, in large part, due to Yeltsin's adherence/pursuance to/of the economic policies, in particular, that were being dictated by Washington.

Moreover, by the end of the conflict in 1996, 100,000 people had been killed, many more had been displaced as a result of the fighting that left devastation that the country had not seen since the Second World War, countless atrocities were committed on both sides, and to top it all off, Russia was humiliated in defeat, and yet at no point during the carnage did Yeltsin ever encounter any kind of pushback from the Clinton Administration in the face of such brutality, with our President, himself, opting, instead, to not only regard the war as "an internal matter" :o, but also, and this is my personal favorite ::), to literally compare the conflict to The Civil War :o, and yet not once was Boris Yeltsin ever vilified for this in The West.

You tell me as to who constitutes as being a mass murderer.

Um, both? Certainly still Putin. I don't really see what the existence of other bad actors, or inconsistency in public image does to the moral standing of his actions. I mean every US President of my lifetime has been at least complicit in war crimes, that doesn't mean there are suddenly acceptable levels of cold-blooded murder.

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #278 on: July 19, 2018, 04:32:59 PM »

Offline blink

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in other white house reality tv news....

Trump asked John Bolton to invite Putin to washington this fall
Unless that is to bring in Putin to question him about US election interference, why would you do that?

un-freaking-believable

https://www.apnews.com/2f24d6a577124e25abc61f41e996726e?utm_medium=AP_Politics&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow

National Security Head Dan Coats live response was (amist laughter) "say that again...."


Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #279 on: July 19, 2018, 04:34:31 PM »

Online fairweatherfan

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A Microsoft exec reports his team found Russian hackers targeting at least 3 Congressional campaigns for the upcoming midterms:

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/kevincollier/the-russians-who-hacked-the-dnc-have-targeted-at-least


And meanwhile the compromised President rails against the media as "the real enemy of the people" for not acknowledging the "great gains" from the meeting that the White House has yet to clearly identify or define. And oh yeah, we're inviting Putin to Washington in the fall.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-russia/trump-invites-putin-to-washington-after-interview-furor-idUSKBN1K9203?

The betrayal continues.

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #280 on: July 19, 2018, 04:36:40 PM »

Offline blink

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A Microsoft exec reports his team found Russian hackers targeting at least 3 Congressional campaigns for the upcoming midterms:

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/kevincollier/the-russians-who-hacked-the-dnc-have-targeted-at-least


And meanwhile the compromised President rails against the media as "the real enemy of the people" for not acknowledging the "great gains" from the meeting that the White House has yet to clearly identify or define. And oh yeah, we're inviting Putin to Washington in the fall.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-russia/trump-invites-putin-to-washington-after-interview-furor-idUSKBN1K9203?

The betrayal continues.

So much news about the selling out of our country.  When these hits just keep coming, I worry that we are all getting used to this as the new normal.

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #281 on: July 19, 2018, 10:40:58 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Yeah, the ďheís only killed dozens rather than millionsĒ defense isnít that compelling.

So you really see no difference, then, between guys like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Putin? Is that as to what you're trying to convey, here?

No, thatís the false equivalency you tried to set up by bringing those names into the conversation.

I have done no such thing.

This is a naive analysis.  RDX is usually packed using some combination of stearic acid, plasticizing wax or petroleum oil.   All these things would impart a nasty flavor to a tea, even if the RDX didn't dissolve into it.

And without knowledge of how much, if any was actually ingested it is silly to speculate around the fact that they didn't actually get RDX poisoning.  After all, if the RDX isn't actually dissolved they could have tasted the tea and been repulsed by the smell/taste of wax and/or motor oil without actually ingesting any RDX.

::) So exposing themselves to such a poison wouldn't have even resulted in them vomiting or turning white, for example? Come on ::).

I don't see a difference either.



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Also, the extent to which dictators like Hitler, Stalin and Mao killed people weren't known worldwide until they were out of power. I can't help but wonder the extent of how heinous Putin is as a mass murderer until he is gone from power. We already know he murders. Probably we don't know just how much.

Not sure if serious.

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #282 on: July 19, 2018, 10:41:05 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Secondly, while the apartment bombings in Moscow received the most attention, they only made for two of the four attacks that were perpetrated between September 4-16, and prior to that, a bomb had gone off in a Moscow mall on August 31, so, unfortunately, these were not isolated incidents, nor did they serve as the catalyst for the start of the Second Chechen War, which had already begun about a month earlier when a force of somewhere between 1,500 and 3,000 Chechen fighters/rebels and Islamic militants invaded neighboring Dagestan, capturing 12 villages before being repulsed by Russian forces.

They invaded Chechnya in October in large part due to public uproar about the bombings. More importantly, citing other bombings or timelines doesn't make the apt bombings not politically motivated mass murder.

You do know that acts of terrorism were committed by the Chechens long before and after the apartment bombings, right?

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Third, the apparent "smoking gun" that would seem to prove that the FSB had been the architect of the bombings simply doesn't make any sense.

This doesn't really seem relevant, the FSB admits it was hexogen and that FSB agents planted the bomb, and they changed their story several times then arrived at calling it a training exercise. The main points aren't in dispute. The "sugar in tea" story also isn't how the actual apartment bomb was found, it's allegedly about a soldier finding mislabeled hexogen being secretly stored at a military facility. It just seems like a more direct connection to the government, not the key one.

In what universe is that not relevant, here?

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Fourth, the event that set the wheels in motion, so to speak, in terms of Russian planning for a military campaign in Chechnya came on March 5, 1999, at the Grozny (the capital of Chechnya in case you didn't know) Airport. According to The Washington Post -

Yeah there's always a lot of other history around a conflict and plenty of villains too. Again I don't see how this does anything but ground the political motives behind the mass murder in a broader context, which is great educationally but doesn't alter the morality a whit.


You're not listening. Like at all. I'm not arguing about the morality of the bombings - I was trying to show you that the plans were already in place to retaliate against Chechnya prior to the events of September of 1999. All that the bombings did was to make things worse.

Again, in the United States, the latter is presented almost as a modern version of the burning of the Reichstag, except that it's not and Russians don't look at it in such a manner.

Besides, did you not notice as to how in any of the various pieces that have been written about said events that the FSB was not exactly operating as one? There were like a million different factions within the agency at that time and probably still are. You had everything from corrupted officers with ties to organized crime to double agents who were working for the Chechens and other rebel groups, to rogue ex-generals and other military figures who were looking to avenge their defeat in the first war, to guys who were constantly carrying out the orders of crooked politicians who were attempting to frame their opponents, and that's even before we talk about those who were at the disposal of the all-powerful Oligarchs who orchestrated Putin's rise to power, so, again, I hate to break it to you, but the whole thing is just not that simple. Not even close.

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Finally, why was Chechnya the source of so much violence throughout Russia during the period and for the longest time, afterward? Well, while the region had been making the preparations to forcibly remove itself from the Russian Federation following the fall of the Soviet Union and had actually declared its independence in 1991, the First Chechen War was, in fact, and I am in no way making this up, literally launched by Yeltsin and his cronies in the belief that a "small, victorious war" would boost his popularity :o, which was, by 1994, completely in the crapper as a result of the state of the country that had come about, in large part, due to Yeltsin's adherence/pursuance to/of the economic policies, in particular, that were being dictated by Washington.

Moreover, by the end of the conflict in 1996, 100,000 people had been killed, many more had been displaced as a result of the fighting that left devastation that the country had not seen since the Second World War, countless atrocities were committed on both sides, and to top it all off, Russia was humiliated in defeat, and yet at no point during the carnage did Yeltsin ever encounter any kind of pushback from the Clinton Administration in the face of such brutality, with our President, himself, opting, instead, to not only regard the war as "an internal matter" :o, but also, and this is my personal favorite ::), to literally compare the conflict to The Civil War :o, and yet not once was Boris Yeltsin ever vilified for this in The West.

You tell me as to who constitutes as being a mass murderer.

Um, both? Certainly still Putin.




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I don't really see what the existence of other bad actors, or inconsistency in public image does to the moral standing of his actions. I mean every US President of my lifetime has been at least complicit in war crimes, that doesn't mean there are suddenly acceptable levels of cold-blooded murder.

With all due respect, as to what on earth are you talking about, here? If Yeltsin doesn't launch the first Chechen War then there is no second installment of the conflict and, by extension, there most likely would have been absolutely no reason for any of the apartment bombings to have occurred in the first place. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT :o. Jesus :o ::).

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #283 on: July 19, 2018, 10:53:33 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Yeah, the ďheís only killed dozens rather than millionsĒ defense isnít that compelling.

So you really see no difference, then, between guys like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Putin? Is that as to what you're trying to convey, here?

No, thatís the false equivalency you tried to set up by bringing those names into the conversation.

I have done no such thing.

Uh yeah, you pretty much did.
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This is a naive analysis.  RDX is usually packed using some combination of stearic acid, plasticizing wax or petroleum oil.   All these things would impart a nasty flavor to a tea, even if the RDX didn't dissolve into it.

And without knowledge of how much, if any was actually ingested it is silly to speculate around the fact that they didn't actually get RDX poisoning.  After all, if the RDX isn't actually dissolved they could have tasted the tea and been repulsed by the smell/taste of wax and/or motor oil without actually ingesting any RDX.

::) So exposing themselves to such a poison wouldn't have even resulted in them vomiting or turning white, for example? Come on ::).

The story said "taste".  It didn't say anything about swallowing.  You don't vomit something that you didn't ingest.  And again, tasting the tea wouldn't transfer the poison if the poison is NOT SOLUBLE IN WATER.   Getting the taste of motor oil, wax or stearic acid on your tongue would taste awful, but it wouldn't poison you.
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Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #284 on: July 19, 2018, 10:59:34 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Yeah, the “he’s only killed dozens rather than millions” defense isn’t that compelling.

So you really see no difference, then, between guys like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Putin? Is that as to what you're trying to convey, here?

No, that’s the false equivalency you tried to set up by bringing those names into the conversation.

I have done no such thing.

Uh yeah, you pretty much did.

Uh, no I didn't.

This is a naive analysis.  RDX is usually packed using some combination of stearic acid, plasticizing wax or petroleum oil.   All these things would impart a nasty flavor to a tea, even if the RDX didn't dissolve into it.

And without knowledge of how much, if any was actually ingested it is silly to speculate around the fact that they didn't actually get RDX poisoning.  After all, if the RDX isn't actually dissolved they could have tasted the tea and been repulsed by the smell/taste of wax and/or motor oil without actually ingesting any RDX.

::) So exposing themselves to such a poison wouldn't have even resulted in them vomiting or turning white, for example? Come on ::).

Quote
The story said "taste".  It didn't say anything about swallowing.  You don't vomit something that you didn't ingest.  And again, tasting the tea wouldn't transfer the poison if the poison is NOT SOLUBLE IN WATER.   Getting the taste of motor oil, wax or stearic acid on your tongue would taste awful, but it wouldn't poison you.

How do we know that they didn't ingest anything like, as you said, motor oil, etc., if the soldiers had at least tasted it? Have you ever accidentally tasted something that has gone off, because I have, and despite spitting it out and attempting to wash the stuff out of my mouth with water, the scant traces of the food, etc., still resulted in nausea and diarrhea in one example. That's my point. If people can exhibit such symptoms from expired food products, etc., I just have a hard time believing that even the smallest accidental ingesting of something like motor oil, etc., wouldn't produce any symptoms whatsoever.

We're on the same side, you know :).
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 11:34:46 PM by Beat LA »