Author Topic: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit  (Read 8789 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #255 on: July 18, 2018, 10:07:28 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

  • Dennis Johnson
  • ******************
  • Posts: 18522
  • Tommy Points: 2036
  • Be the posts you wish to see in the world.
Russian officials are describing "verbal agreements" made between Trump & Putin in their private meeting, but US military officials don't know what they are.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/as-russians-describe-verbal-agreements-at-summit-us-officials-scramble-for-clarity/2018/07/18/8bb1e96c-8aa7-11e8-a345-a1bf7847b375_story.html?

NYT has a story on Trump's extensive pre-inauguration briefing about evidence for Putin ordering the hacking, which he's since spent 18 months trying to undermine:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/18/world/europe/trump-intelligence-russian-election-meddling-.html

All seems fine to me!

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #256 on: July 18, 2018, 10:07:52 PM »

Offline liam

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11263
  • Tommy Points: 734
man this thread has gotten pretty derailed from the original topic.  Can we all get back to the topic?  It is an important one, and I for one don't want it to get locked because it got off track.

I mean we pretty much all accept that Putin is a thug / mass murderer / general bad guy.  If that needs to be debated (it doesn't) then maybe a new thread on Putin.

Well, part of the reason that we should all be worried about Russia is that they are, in fact, extremely dangerous.  There are multiple ways to underestimate Russia.  One is to trust them, like our idiot President does.  Another is to not believe that they're dangerous, or to believe that their government isn't all that much different than ours.  While having peace with Russia is a desirable goal, it needs to be a peace that recognizes (at least internally) that Putin is a KGB psychopath who generally doesn't operate in good faith.

I agree with everything you just said but I would've left off the "generally.."

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #257 on: July 18, 2018, 10:10:21 PM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 35602
  • Tommy Points: -27752
  • 33,333 posts and counting . . .
man this thread has gotten pretty derailed from the original topic.  Can we all get back to the topic?  It is an important one, and I for one don't want it to get locked because it got off track.

I mean we pretty much all accept that Putin is a thug / mass murderer / general bad guy.  If that needs to be debated (it doesn't) then maybe a new thread on Putin.

Well, part of the reason that we should all be worried about Russia is that they are, in fact, extremely dangerous.  There are multiple ways to underestimate Russia.  One is to trust them, like our idiot President does.  Another is to not believe that they're dangerous, or to believe that their government isn't all that much different than ours.  While having peace with Russia is a desirable goal, it needs to be a peace that recognizes (at least internally) that Putin is a KGB psychopath who generally doesn't operate in good faith.

Nothing I wrote disagrees with anything you said.

Well, you suggested we're off-topic.  I'd say the topics are inherently related.  If Russia wasn't an evil government, none of this would be so crucially important.  And, topics that are intrinsically related make sense to discuss together.


Once a CrotoNat, always a CrotoNat.  CelticsBlog Draft Champions, 2009 & 2012;
DKC Draft 2015 Champions and beyond...

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #258 on: July 18, 2018, 10:15:19 PM »

Offline blink

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6472
  • Tommy Points: 384
man this thread has gotten pretty derailed from the original topic.  Can we all get back to the topic?  It is an important one, and I for one don't want it to get locked because it got off track.

I mean we pretty much all accept that Putin is a thug / mass murderer / general bad guy.  If that needs to be debated (it doesn't) then maybe a new thread on Putin.

Well, part of the reason that we should all be worried about Russia is that they are, in fact, extremely dangerous.  There are multiple ways to underestimate Russia.  One is to trust them, like our idiot President does.  Another is to not believe that they're dangerous, or to believe that their government isn't all that much different than ours.  While having peace with Russia is a desirable goal, it needs to be a peace that recognizes (at least internally) that Putin is a KGB psychopath who generally doesn't operate in good faith.

Nothing I wrote disagrees with anything you said.

Well, you suggested we're off-topic.  I'd say the topics are inherently related.  If Russia wasn't an evil government, none of this would be so crucially important.  And, topics that are intrinsically related make sense to discuss together.

Yeah I think having a debate about what is considered a mass murder is off topic.  I disagree.
Oh well.

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #259 on: July 18, 2018, 10:17:50 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

  • Frank Ramsey
  • ************
  • Posts: 12821
  • Tommy Points: 1625
  • bammokja
And just as interesting, is this from the NYT. Trump had been told of the hacking by Russians two weeks before he took office.  Part of a briefing by intelligence community for him. He acknowledged it. 

Trump has flat out lied this entire time.

WASHINGTON — Two weeks before his inauguration, Donald J. Trump was shown highly classified intelligence indicating that President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia had personally ordered complex cyberattacks to sway the 2016 American election.

The evidence included texts and emails from Russian military officers and information gleaned from a top-secret source close to Mr. Putin, who had described to the C.I.A. how the Kremlin decided to execute its campaign of hacking and disinformation.
I believe Gandhi is the only person who knew about real democracy — not democracy as the right to go and buy what you want, but democracy as the responsibility to be accountable to everyone around you. Democracy begins with freedom from hunger, freedom from unemployment, freedom from fear, and freedom from hatred.
- Vandana Shiva

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #260 on: July 18, 2018, 10:32:52 PM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 35602
  • Tommy Points: -27752
  • 33,333 posts and counting . . .
Quote
WASHINGTON — Two weeks before his inauguration, Donald J. Trump was shown highly classified intelligence indicating that President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia had personally ordered complex cyberattacks to sway the 2016 American election.

The evidence included texts and emails from Russian military officers and information gleaned from a top-secret source close to Mr. Putin, who had described to the C.I.A. how the Kremlin decided to execute its campaign of hacking and disinformation.

I find this fascinating. If they’ve got very specific information like this, wouldn’t you think they’d have more definitive information on whether there was actual collusion?  I have a hard time believing that we got into Putin’s inner-circle, but don’t know if he was working for Trump or not.

It’s an important question: is Trump compromised? If so, release the info and impeach him. If not, drop the probe but hammer him on terrible and dangerous foreign policy.


Once a CrotoNat, always a CrotoNat.  CelticsBlog Draft Champions, 2009 & 2012;
DKC Draft 2015 Champions and beyond...

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #261 on: July 18, 2018, 10:50:51 PM »

Offline Silent Storm

  • Al Horford
  • Posts: 426
  • Tommy Points: 55
Quote
WASHINGTON — Two weeks before his inauguration, Donald J. Trump was shown highly classified intelligence indicating that President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia had personally ordered complex cyberattacks to sway the 2016 American election.

The evidence included texts and emails from Russian military officers and information gleaned from a top-secret source close to Mr. Putin, who had described to the C.I.A. how the Kremlin decided to execute its campaign of hacking and disinformation.

I find this fascinating. If they’ve got very specific information like this, wouldn’t you think they’d have more definitive information on whether there was actual collusion?  I have a hard time believing that we got into Putin’s inner-circle, but don’t know if he was working for Trump or not.

It’s an important question: is Trump compromised? If so, release the info and impeach him. If not, drop the probe but hammer him on terrible and dangerous foreign policy.

I believe we have been privy to the tip of the iceberg so far. This is a good read regarding the scope and direction of the investigation: https://www.wired.com/story/what-robert-mueller-knowsand-9-areas-hell-pursue-next/
You are no longer black, or brown, or yellow, or red! You are now GREEN, you are light GREEN, or dark GREEN!

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #262 on: July 18, 2018, 11:05:39 PM »

Offline blink

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6472
  • Tommy Points: 384
Quote
WASHINGTON — Two weeks before his inauguration, Donald J. Trump was shown highly classified intelligence indicating that President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia had personally ordered complex cyberattacks to sway the 2016 American election.

The evidence included texts and emails from Russian military officers and information gleaned from a top-secret source close to Mr. Putin, who had described to the C.I.A. how the Kremlin decided to execute its campaign of hacking and disinformation.

I find this fascinating. If they’ve got very specific information like this, wouldn’t you think they’d have more definitive information on whether there was actual collusion?  I have a hard time believing that we got into Putin’s inner-circle, but don’t know if he was working for Trump or not.

It’s an important question: is Trump compromised? If so, release the info and impeach him. If not, drop the probe but hammer him on terrible and dangerous foreign policy.

Why do you assume it has to be an either / or at this point?  I feel it is completely possible that Mueller has incriminating information on individuals in the Trump campaign, but is gathering MORE information to make the case lock solid. 

I mean if there was ever a case that you are investigating that you needed to have as much proof as possible, this is it.  With the additional complications of the case being slowly leaked out (NRA coordination with Russia) I don't see why we would expect it to be wrapped up by now?  Wouldn't this be one of the most intensely investigated cases ever?  Wouldn't the burden of proof be extremely high?

Maybe Paul Manafort's cooperation with the probe is the final evidence that Mueller is trying to acquire? 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-manafort/judge-denies-manaforts-request-to-suppress-evidence-idUSKBN1K82W4

With Manafort's judge recent throwing out Manafort's request to suppress evidence, it gets more likely that Manafort will flip.  There have been multiple reports saying that Trump himself is worried that Manafort will filp.  Manafort was in the meeting at Trump Tower, Manafort was reportedly advising Trump both before and after he was with the campaign. 

As others have said, (me as well) we just don't know enough about what is going on to even say how far the investigation should be at this point.

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #263 on: July 18, 2018, 11:21:20 PM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 35602
  • Tommy Points: -27752
  • 33,333 posts and counting . . .
Quote
WASHINGTON — Two weeks before his inauguration, Donald J. Trump was shown highly classified intelligence indicating that President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia had personally ordered complex cyberattacks to sway the 2016 American election.

The evidence included texts and emails from Russian military officers and information gleaned from a top-secret source close to Mr. Putin, who had described to the C.I.A. how the Kremlin decided to execute its campaign of hacking and disinformation.

I find this fascinating. If they’ve got very specific information like this, wouldn’t you think they’d have more definitive information on whether there was actual collusion?  I have a hard time believing that we got into Putin’s inner-circle, but don’t know if he was working for Trump or not.

It’s an important question: is Trump compromised? If so, release the info and impeach him. If not, drop the probe but hammer him on terrible and dangerous foreign policy.

Why do you assume it has to be an either / or at this point?  I feel it is completely possible that Mueller has incriminating information on individuals in the Trump campaign, but is gathering MORE information to make the case lock solid. 

I mean if there was ever a case that you are investigating that you needed to have as much proof as possible, this is it.  With the additional complications of the case being slowly leaked out (NRA coordination with Russia) I don't see why we would expect it to be wrapped up by now?  Wouldn't this be one of the most intensely investigated cases ever?  Wouldn't the burden of proof be extremely high?

Maybe Paul Manafort's cooperation with the probe is the final evidence that Mueller is trying to acquire? 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-manafort/judge-denies-manaforts-request-to-suppress-evidence-idUSKBN1K82W4

With Manafort's judge recent throwing out Manafort's request to suppress evidence, it gets more likely that Manafort will flip.  There have been multiple reports saying that Trump himself is worried that Manafort will filp.  Manafort was in the meeting at Trump Tower, Manafort was reportedly advising Trump both before and after he was with the campaign. 

As others have said, (me as well) we just don't know enough about what is going on to even say how far the investigation should be at this point.

The idea of indefinite, largely unlimited investigations with expansive budgets and limited oversight  make me squeamish.  I’d like to see some reasonable suspicion — not even probable cause — before undermining somebody’s entire Presidency.

What’s a reasonable length of time for this to take? 2 years? 4? 8?  I’m just not sure what new evidence there will be. Again, if you’ve got somebody within Putin's Inner-circle sharing information, I’m surprised that there’s not a definitive answer by now.


Once a CrotoNat, always a CrotoNat.  CelticsBlog Draft Champions, 2009 & 2012;
DKC Draft 2015 Champions and beyond...

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #264 on: July 19, 2018, 12:49:14 AM »

Offline blink

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6472
  • Tommy Points: 384
Quote
WASHINGTON — Two weeks before his inauguration, Donald J. Trump was shown highly classified intelligence indicating that President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia had personally ordered complex cyberattacks to sway the 2016 American election.

The evidence included texts and emails from Russian military officers and information gleaned from a top-secret source close to Mr. Putin, who had described to the C.I.A. how the Kremlin decided to execute its campaign of hacking and disinformation.

I find this fascinating. If they’ve got very specific information like this, wouldn’t you think they’d have more definitive information on whether there was actual collusion?  I have a hard time believing that we got into Putin’s inner-circle, but don’t know if he was working for Trump or not.

It’s an important question: is Trump compromised? If so, release the info and impeach him. If not, drop the probe but hammer him on terrible and dangerous foreign policy.

Why do you assume it has to be an either / or at this point?  I feel it is completely possible that Mueller has incriminating information on individuals in the Trump campaign, but is gathering MORE information to make the case lock solid. 

I mean if there was ever a case that you are investigating that you needed to have as much proof as possible, this is it.  With the additional complications of the case being slowly leaked out (NRA coordination with Russia) I don't see why we would expect it to be wrapped up by now?  Wouldn't this be one of the most intensely investigated cases ever?  Wouldn't the burden of proof be extremely high?

Maybe Paul Manafort's cooperation with the probe is the final evidence that Mueller is trying to acquire? 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-manafort/judge-denies-manaforts-request-to-suppress-evidence-idUSKBN1K82W4

With Manafort's judge recent throwing out Manafort's request to suppress evidence, it gets more likely that Manafort will flip.  There have been multiple reports saying that Trump himself is worried that Manafort will filp.  Manafort was in the meeting at Trump Tower, Manafort was reportedly advising Trump both before and after he was with the campaign. 

As others have said, (me as well) we just don't know enough about what is going on to even say how far the investigation should be at this point.

The idea of indefinite, largely unlimited investigations with expansive budgets and limited oversight  make me squeamish.  I’d like to see some reasonable suspicion — not even probable cause — before undermining somebody’s entire Presidency.

What’s a reasonable length of time for this to take? 2 years? 4? 8?  I’m just not sure what new evidence there will be. Again, if you’ve got somebody within Putin's Inner-circle sharing information, I’m surprised that there’s not a definitive answer by now.

I hear what you are saying. 

But just because the general public doesn't know if there is reasonable suspicion or probable cause that doesn't mean that the FBI doesn't already know that.  If Mueller already knows that, why on earth would he leak that information until he was ready to submit his findings?  How would that help the investigation?  How would that help the country?  Why should they make it public before they are ready?

It isn't like the investigation isn't proving fruitful.  Mueller has already indicted Michael Flynn, Paul Manafort, Richard Gates, & George Papadapoulos - all members of Trump's campaign.   Sessions, Trump Jr, Kushner,  Roger Stone have all been reported to have lied about contacts with Russians and/ or Wikileaks during the campaign.   Mueller reportedly has the phone and computer of Erik Prince.  Manafort has been reportedly considering cooperating with the investigation.

I am not a legal expert, so I don't know how long it should last.  I don't however, believe the FBI needs to report to the public prior to completing their investigation.  I don't think the country benefits from incomplete findings. 

There has been bi-partisan support for Mueller to follow his investigation through to conclusion.  There is a bi-partisan resolution scheduled to submitted tomorrow commending Mueller for his investigation as well as reaffirming support for the intelligence communities findings.

https://twitter.com/ChrisCoons/status/1019675342569648128

The main thing I want as a citizen, is a public report that describes in as great as detail as possible the findings of the investigation, either way. 


« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 01:00:24 AM by blink »

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #265 on: July 19, 2018, 08:27:18 AM »

Offline Beat LA

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8318
  • Tommy Points: 890
  • Mr. Emoji
And just as interesting, is this from the NYT. Trump had been told of the hacking by Russians two weeks before he took office.  Part of a briefing by intelligence community for him. He acknowledged it. 

Trump has flat out lied this entire time.

WASHINGTON — Two weeks before his inauguration, Donald J. Trump was shown highly classified intelligence indicating that President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia had personally ordered complex cyberattacks to sway the 2016 American election.

The evidence included texts and emails from Russian military officers and information gleaned from a top-secret source close to Mr. Putin, who had described to the C.I.A. how the Kremlin decided to execute its campaign of hacking and disinformation.

Duh, lol ;D.

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #266 on: July 19, 2018, 08:27:44 AM »

Offline Beat LA

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8318
  • Tommy Points: 890
  • Mr. Emoji
There at least 10 high profile cases of assassination tied to Putin. That's mass murder by itself. Comparing to genocides from history doesn't change anything, even without touching any of the terrorist or military skirmishes he may have played a role in.

I'm not trying to downplay those murders nor his involvement, therein, it's just I perhaps misunderstood the context surrounding the use of "mass murderer", and for that I sincerely apologize.

In a vacuum, yes, of course 10 murders constitute as being mass murder/the work of a serial killer. However, as a head of state, as Putin is, when I think of mass murderers, his name isn't even in the top ten of world leaders in that regard even since the start of the 20th century. Not even close. That's what I meant, so yes, comparing his actions to genocides from history is entirely appropriate. How can you possibly say otherwise?

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #267 on: July 19, 2018, 08:28:37 AM »

Offline Beat LA

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8318
  • Tommy Points: 890
  • Mr. Emoji
I'd say he is like the MOST responsible out of anyone. I'm sure others are complicit- clearly there are wealthy Russians and party members who benefit from the same result. Putin is 16 years KGB, Director of the FSB who has left a trail of dead politicians, journalists and dissenters over the past ~20 years while simultaneously winning more and more questionable elections. His enemies have a nasty habit of being poisoned with exotic substances that an FSB/KGB agent would have access to. It's completely blatant, but the rest of the world is generally handcuffed in the same way we can't just waltz into North Korea and demand human rights... except Russia actually has enough nukes to start WWIII at any time.

Any sort of "but known murders are down" argument completely and utterly misses the point. It's a tenuous correlation and I'd say that you need to finish making the point if you're going to make it. Are you saying Putin has been actually secretly fighting corruption and violence the past 15 years, and promoting democracy? What is the claim?

Overall violence in Russia during Putin's time has dramatically decreased from the utter chaos that he inherited from his predecessor - that's just a fact. Again, I am not a fan of Putin nor some kind of apologist for the guy, but the full picture is almost never reported in the West, and unless you have an interest in Russian history, as I do (yeah, yeah, I know - I'm weird :-\), well, unfortunately, you're unlikely to come across it in your everyday life. I think.

That said, in terms of his winning of questionable elections, I agree with you 100%. The only problem, however, is that, again, fraudulent elections/referendums in Russia, even in the aftermath of the fall of the Soviet Union, hardly came about because of Putin. That's just a classic oversimplification/completely erroneous Western talking point that simply has no basis in reality. 

Finally, as for the part of your response that I chose to highlight, most regrettably, those substances such as novichok are no longer solely at the disposal of, as you said, current/former Russian officials. In fact, the first case of chemical weapons falling into the hands of members of Russian organized crime, etc., came in 1995, and yet, somehow, this quite alarming development was never given much, if any, attention in the United States, etc., nor was it ever mentioned by any member of our government at the time, iirc, and my question is simply as to why? Where was the outrage, then? Is that okay with you, lol? ;D

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/sergei-skripal-yulia-nerve-agent-russia-spy-poisoning-salisbury-murder-ivan-kivelidi-a8303501.html

Additionally, America also has more than enough nuclear weapons to start WWIII, as well, so I'm not sure as to your point on that front.

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #268 on: July 19, 2018, 08:29:16 AM »

Offline Beat LA

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8318
  • Tommy Points: 890
  • Mr. Emoji
Putin has killed political enemies. More than one. More than 10. That makes him a mass murderer. You stated the amount of political related murders have decreased. He is the reason the political murders are happening.

Does Putin have to be as bad as Hitler, Stalin, Mao to be a mass murderer? Really poor defense there. A mass murderer is a mass murderer whether he has killed 5, 10, 100 or a million people. Between Putins time as a KGB agent and his assention to power and killing who he needs to to stay in power, yes. He is a mass murderer. Icould care less how this can be spun in regards to Russian history, but in America, killing all those people, even if for political gain, is still murder.

Political murders in Russia were unfortunately happening well before Putin even took office, so so much for that theory ::), and it's not a defense. When someone mentions the worst murderers in history from the standpoint of world leaders, there's a reason as to why Putin's name doesn't even register. That's my point, and I'm not spinning anything, here, like at all.

Please don't think that I'm some kind of monster :'(. Please :'(.

Re: 12 Russians indicted for hacking DNC, Clinton/Helsinki Summit
« Reply #269 on: July 19, 2018, 08:29:28 AM »

Offline Beat LA

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8318
  • Tommy Points: 890
  • Mr. Emoji
Yeah, the “he’s only killed dozens rather than millions” defense isn’t that compelling.

So you really see no difference, then, between guys like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Putin? Is that as to what you're trying to convey, here?