Author Topic: Why Baynes is likely the odd man out this summer  (Read 3837 times)

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Re: Why Baynes is likely the odd man out this summer
« Reply #60 on: June 24, 2018, 08:51:47 PM »

Offline wiley

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I assume that (in the case of lowish salaried players mostly) they can be cut to make space when no deals can be found?  Or wrongo?

Not really, because even this assumes that you’re leaving one open roster spot, and signing someone at the vet minimum is going to cost more than you save.  You could stretch Nader, for example, at only $65k per year for 7 years, but he makes under $1.4 million this year, and a replacement would cost $1.5 million, so there’s really nothing gained.

Thank you!  One more if you don't mind...  So, Morris can be traded to a team with space for just a pick (theoretically), and Baynes returning at a decent salary, even though he's a free agent, doesn't count against the cap as would filling the roster with a non Celtic free agent? 

And can the Celtics also take back a small amount of salary in a Morris trade (a cheap player), or that's off the table in this case?

TP in advance for spending time on beginner questions...

Re: Why Baynes is likely the odd man out this summer
« Reply #61 on: June 24, 2018, 08:59:10 PM »

Online saltlover

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I assume that (in the case of lowish salaried players mostly) they can be cut to make space when no deals can be found?  Or wrongo?

Not really, because even this assumes that you’re leaving one open roster spot, and signing someone at the vet minimum is going to cost more than you save.  You could stretch Nader, for example, at only $65k per year for 7 years, but he makes under $1.4 million this year, and a replacement would cost $1.5 million, so there’s really nothing gained.

Thank you!  One more if you don't mind...  So, Morris can be traded to a team with space for just a pick (theoretically), and Baynes returning at a decent salary, even though he's a free agent, doesn't count against the cap as would filling the roster with a non Celtic free agent? 

And can the Celtics also take back a small amount of salary in a Morris trade (a cheap player), or that's off the table in this case?

TP in advance for spending time on beginner questions...

We don’t care about the cap.  We’re over it.  We care about the tax.  We can resign Baynes because he was with us last year, even though we’re over the cap.  We would be allowed to bring back a player, but as it’s likely Baynes would be signing for virtually the same salary we’re trading Morris away for (in the event that happens at all) it would likely create a complication with the tax and so might not work.
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Re: Why Baynes is likely the odd man out this summer
« Reply #62 on: June 24, 2018, 09:22:20 PM »

Offline colincb

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I assume that (in the case of lowish salaried players mostly) they can be cut to make space when no deals can be found?  Or wrongo?

Not really, because even this assumes that you’re leaving one open roster spot, and signing someone at the vet minimum is going to cost more than you save.  You could stretch Nader, for example, at only $65k per year for 7 years, but he makes under $1.4 million this year, and a replacement would cost $1.5 million, so there’s really nothing gained.

Thank you!  One more if you don't mind...  So, Morris can be traded to a team with space for just a pick (theoretically), and Baynes returning at a decent salary, even though he's a free agent, doesn't count against the cap as would filling the roster with a non Celtic free agent? 

And can the Celtics also take back a small amount of salary in a Morris trade (a cheap player), or that's off the table in this case?

TP in advance for spending time on beginner questions...

We don’t care about the cap.  We’re over it.  We care about the tax.  We can resign Baynes because he was with us last year, even though we’re over the cap.  We would be allowed to bring back a player, but as it’s likely Baynes would be signing for virtually the same salary we’re trading Morris away for (in the event that happens at all) it would likely create a complication with the tax and so might not work.

And we care about the luxury tax because once we go over the line it starts the clock on the "repeater" luxury tax (3 of the last 4 years over the tax line) which would send the Cs' tax bill sky high. Going to happen eventually, but you want to stay out of it as long as possible.

This is what most likely ends the Warriors' run when they have to cut very good bench players and replace them with vet min contracts and still end up with a payroll that climbs toward $300 MM rapidly.
The top-earning 1% of households — those earning more than $607,000 a year — will pay a combined $111 billion less this year in federal taxes than they would have if the laws had remained unchanged... [T]hat's more than the tax cut received by the bottom 60%. - NYT 7/11/18

Re: Why Baynes is likely the odd man out this summer
« Reply #63 on: June 24, 2018, 10:08:02 PM »

Offline loco_91

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I think Morris is the odd man out. He was pretty awful at times in the postseason - he just doesn't fit with what Stevens wants to do in the 2nd unit. Hayward's return will affect Morris more than anyone else - he's like Morris but much better at everything.

There's a >50% chance we play the Sixers in the playoffs, and you have to ask who guards Embiid if Baynes is gone. This year Stevens clearly preferred to put Baynes on him. I don't like the idea of relying on Horford and Theis, especially since Horford matches up so well with Simmons.

Re: Why Baynes is likely the odd man out this summer
« Reply #64 on: June 24, 2018, 10:13:03 PM »

Offline jambr380

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And can the Celtics also take back a small amount of salary in a Morris trade (a cheap player), or that's off the table in this case?

Cs can definitely take back a player in a Morris deal. They would just need to make sure the other team has enough cap space to make up the difference in salaries and that the player is someone the Cs would prefer (over a vet min pick-up).

Re: Why Baynes is likely the odd man out this summer
« Reply #65 on: June 24, 2018, 11:28:45 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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I'm for keeping Morris.

1. The uncertain health/status of Hayward. We really don't know what he is going to look like. He would be good backup just in case. As we saw last year, you never know with injuries. And for 5 mil per as an expiring deal, Morris is a goo value.

2. With how the Cs play, I believe you can never have enough quality wings. They basically play with 3 wings on the floor so loosing a guy who can defend/score seems counter productive, especially considering that beating GS/HOU is probably the ultimate goal.

3. Morris brought a sense of cockiness/toughness to this team that they lacked in previous year. Thought it was a positive for the team and I think it played a large role in creating their identity last year.

TP on all accounts :). How did this develop into a Morris-bashing thread, anyway?

Don't get me wrong, I like Baynes, but for all of his faults, Morris is still a guy who can create something out of nothing, offensively, so to speak, and those dudes are difficult to find. Plus, with as gruesome as Hayward's injury was, he might be eased back into things in a reserve role, early on, not to mention the fact that it's probably not exactly a good idea to play anyone who is returning from any kind of major injury/surgery on back-to-backs, but then again, I'm not a doctor, so...;D.

Re: Why Baynes is likely the odd man out this summer
« Reply #66 on: June 25, 2018, 12:20:14 AM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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I really want Baynes to stay. I also want Smart, but understand the salary concerns over keeping both.

Baynes is really a great guy to have in the locker room and on the bench, and his impact on the floor is unheralded as well.

He would be a great guy to have Bob Williams hang around. If he keeps developing that 3PT shot, he should definitely stay here if he will take the taxpayer MLE.
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Re: Why Baynes is likely the odd man out this summer
« Reply #67 on: June 25, 2018, 03:25:52 AM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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I'm for keeping Morris.

1. The uncertain health/status of Hayward. We really don't know what he is going to look like. He would be good backup just in case. As we saw last year, you never know with injuries. And for 5 mil per as an expiring deal, Morris is a goo value.

2. With how the Cs play, I believe you can never have enough quality wings. They basically play with 3 wings on the floor so loosing a guy who can defend/score seems counter productive, especially considering that beating GS/HOU is probably the ultimate goal.

3. Morris brought a sense of cockiness/toughness to this team that they lacked in previous year. Thought it was a positive for the team and I think it played a large role in creating their identity last year.

TP on all accounts :). How did this develop into a Morris-bashing thread, anyway?

Don't get me wrong, I like Baynes, but for all of his faults, Morris is still a guy who can create something out of nothing, offensively, so to speak, and those dudes are difficult to find. Plus, with as gruesome as Hayward's injury was, he might be eased back into things in a reserve role, early on, not to mention the fact that it's probably not exactly a good idea to play anyone who is returning from any kind of major injury/surgery on back-to-backs, but then again, I'm not a doctor, so...;D.

I certainly like Morris and if we could keep them all and stay under the luxury tax I would. However I do think Baynes fills a much bigger need on our roster than Morris. His shot creation is much less important when you add both Haywards and Kyrie into the mix. Even if Hayward take half a season to really ramp it up, the extra shots that would go to Tatum and Irving would be enough to minimise his role.

With no Baynes we would be relying on Al for almost two thirds of the centre minutes in the regular season which is too much to me. I love Theis but I don't think Williams is going to step into a role this year. Also I don't see any replacements on the market that are good enough to let Baynes go.

Re: Why Baynes is likely the odd man out this summer
« Reply #68 on: June 25, 2018, 06:42:53 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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I doubt Baynes is the odd man out.   I see us paying him and paying the tax unless the market is really high for him.

Re: Why Baynes is likely the odd man out this summer
« Reply #69 on: June 25, 2018, 07:46:58 AM »

Online Roy H.

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The other thing if it comes down to Baynes vs. Morris: Baynes May commit to multiple seasons, whereas Morris is almost definitely going to be gone after this season.


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Re: Why Baynes is likely the odd man out this summer
« Reply #70 on: June 25, 2018, 07:49:38 AM »

Offline dreamgreen

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I would offer Baynes 5.3m per year for 2 year deal and Smart a 3 year/39 million dollar deal.

If a Kahwi Leonard becomes available, we could consolidate assets by trading Smart 13m, Jaylen Brown 4.7m, and Morris 5m, plus draft picks.

If the Leonard trade doesn't happen, our team is still STACKED and ready to compete for a title run!

I'm not giving Smart $13m!  He's MLE material, no more!

I think we match up to $15 per.

I hope not! That would be the end of what Danny has built. Once you give a guy that will struggle to get more than 15 mpg next season if everyone is healthy that kind of money than who do you lose in the future? KI, Brown, Tatum? You can't pay everyone big money it just doesn't work. If Smart gets eight figures from the C's this off season than I know Rome is burning!

I'm curious why you think Smart's minutes will be cut in half when the team hasn't added anyone to the roster who plays the same position.

In the playoffs Smart averaged 29.9 mpg with no KI or Hayward whom both play positions Smart gets time at. Those guys will get 60-68 mpg combined so others will lose minutes Smart IMO will be one of those who will lose minutes. Is Smart going to take minutes away from either of them or JB, JT? No because they are all better than he is. If KI, Hayward, JB and JT all get 30 mpg that's half the minutes available in a game for the entire roster and you haven't put in one big yet. This is why Morris is already worried about PT next year!

Re: Why Baynes is likely the odd man out this summer
« Reply #71 on: June 25, 2018, 07:51:19 AM »

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The other thing if it comes down to Baynes vs. Morris: Baynes May commit to multiple seasons, whereas Morris is almost definitely going to be gone after this season.

I think that’s an argument in favor of Morris and not Baynes, personally.
“When an alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien. The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.”

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Re: Why Baynes is likely the odd man out this summer
« Reply #72 on: June 25, 2018, 08:02:30 AM »

Online Roy H.

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The other thing if it comes down to Baynes vs. Morris: Baynes May commit to multiple seasons, whereas Morris is almost definitely going to be gone after this season.

I think that’s an argument in favor of Morris and not Baynes, personally.

I don’t. We need some continuity on our roster. Sub-MLE deals for starting caliber players are ideal. Having to fill in roster holes through free agency, on the other hand, often leads to inferior players and/or poor contracts.

Next year there’s going to be a lot more money available in free agency. Guys will likely get overpaid again. Having a useful player locked up on a cheap contract benefits us, because we can avoid the outside market place.


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Re: Why Baynes is likely the odd man out this summer
« Reply #73 on: June 25, 2018, 11:53:18 AM »

Offline Rosco917

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We need Baynes. When the game gets physical and is on the line his size and physicality pays off.
For what he does, he's the best we have.

Also, he found himself a nice bailout 3pt shot last year.

Re: Why Baynes is likely the odd man out this summer
« Reply #74 on: June 25, 2018, 11:57:26 AM »

Offline azzenfrost

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He wants to stay. C's want him to stay. They'll work something out.
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