Author Topic: Williams vs Ayton (full game)  (Read 3575 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2018, 04:26:55 PM »

Online DefenseWinsChamps

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2422
  • Tommy Points: 439
My summary.

First half:
- He had a faceup jay from 18 that missed, but the form looked alright.
- He denied the post entry pass to Ayton twice, both times forcing a turnover.
- He stripped Ayton on a post move once, forcing a turnover.
- He had a nice high low post entry pass to his frontcourt teammate for an easy score.
- He switched out to a guard, was initially beat, and then recovered for a pretty amazing block.
- He got physical with Ayton multiple times to force Ayton off his spot and deny the post entry pass. Ayton's low point total was at least partially because of Williams defense.
- He ended the first half on a pretty awesome play when his offensive player was trying to pick him as his teammate tried to drive. Williams was able to detach himself from the pick and block the driver's shot. He kept the block in bounds, which in my mind always counts a turnover (even if it doesn't with normal stats).
- He was open multiple times for lob dunks when his front court partner received the post entry pass, but his front court partner made the read too slow and the help defense recovered.
- He set pretty lazy screens, but the players he set screens for did not even try to use him correctly. This partially seemed like the result of a mechanical and ineffective set they were running.
- He stayed active most of the time. His energy was there on both sides of the ball. That doesn't mean he was effective, but I didn't see a lazy player. My read was that he wasn't in the the right spots, but this is the only full game I've watched of their team and coaching.

Second half
- He had a pick and short pop jay from 15 that missed, but the form looked alright.
- He hedged on defense on a screen one play, and when the wing dropped down onto Ayton, he reacted really quickly to fade out to the wing's man on the sideline. The wing left Ayton, which almost resulted in an easy alley-oop. What I liked was how quickly and instinctually Williams went from hedging to getting back to Ayton on the roll, to fading out to the wing. Whether that play would have been the wing's fault or William's fault on the miscommunication, I don't know.
- Ayton got the ball in the post and made a nice up and under on Williams. Would have liked to seen more fight to force him into a tougher shot.
- Williams turned it over on a post entry pass to his frontcourt mate. It was a low pass, but I think the frontcourt mate should have caught it.
- More meh screens. I don't think coaching or his guards helped him with this. One good thing was that it did appear like Williams was trying to make contact with the defender on the screens, even if his teammate wasn't rubbing shoulders.
- Williams got backscreened that opened Ayton to receive the post pass, make a move, and pass it off to his front court mate for an easy score. This looks like a miscommunication from his teammates -- not Williams fault. He did try to recover.
- He had a tough catch as he was moving backward toward the rim, with a quick turn and layup. It was an awkward offensive play, but it showed his agility and hands.
- Inconsistent box outs. He did some, especially when Ayton was in the game, but other times he didn't find a body when the ball went up.
- Impressive box out and ball-tracking against Arizona's other frontcourt player.
- He failed to deny the ball on Arizona's other frontcourt player. The player used a dropstep with a strong chicken wing to knock Williams back. He went up for the hook and a foul was called on Williams' teammate (Williams had a clean block even though he was knocked back).
- He made a tough high-low post entry pass from the free throw line that resulted in a foul.
- He had a nice early seal in the paint that resulted in a made right-handed hook shot.
- HE got a good loose-ball rebound using his length and jumping over the other Arizona front court player.
- He twice had an opposing driver dead to rights, ready to block their shots, but they were bailed out by cheap, lazy fouls by Williams teammates.
- Pretty helpside block on Trier that stayed in bounds and Texas AM got the ball back.
- He had one possession with two offensive rebounds, but an off-balance attempted put-back that missed. He kicked out the second one.
- Later on in the half he pushed the other Arizona front court player off the block well multiple possessions.
- He tipped away a post entry pass into Ayton as a helpside defender. He tried to collect it and start the fast break, but was out of bounds. HE WAS HYPED UP AFTER THIS PLAY.
- Arizona went on their last push when Williams went out of the game immediately after the previous play.
- Good activity onball defense on an inbounds pass that forced an Arizona timeout. HE WAS HYPED UP AFTER THIS PLAY.

Overall Impressions
- He played to his competition. He took it as a personal challenge against Ayton, but was not as engaged against the other Arizona frontcourt player.
- He played better the longer he was in the game both halfs. This could be a rhythm thing.
- I counted 5 times total where Williams was trying to load up for an alley-oop, but his teammates couldn't/wouldn't make the pass.
- Overall, I was impressed with his energy and competitiveness.
- He was the best athlete on the floor.
- Overall, I was frustrated with the Texas AM offensive system. It lacked rhythm, good looks, or complexity.

Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2018, 04:33:22 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5299
  • Tommy Points: 627
  • A true Celtic plays with heart.
My summary.

First half:
- He had a faceup jay from 18 that missed, but the form looked alright.
- He denied the post entry pass to Ayton twice, both times forcing a turnover.
- He stripped Ayton on a post move once, forcing a turnover.
- He had a nice high low post entry pass to his frontcourt teammate for an easy score.
- He switched out to a guard, was initially beat, and then recovered for a pretty amazing block.
- He got physical with Ayton multiple times to force Ayton off his spot and deny the post entry pass. Ayton's low point total was at least partially because of Williams defense.
- He ended the first half on a pretty awesome play when his offensive player was trying to pick him as his teammate tried to drive. Williams was able to detach himself from the pick and block the driver's shot. He kept the block in bounds, which in my mind always counts a turnover (even if it doesn't with normal stats).
- He was open multiple times for lob dunks when his front court partner received the post entry pass, but his front court partner made the read too slow and the help defense recovered.
- He set pretty lazy screens, but the players he set screens for did not even try to use him correctly. This partially seemed like the result of a mechanical and ineffective set they were running.
- He stayed active most of the time. His energy was there on both sides of the ball. That doesn't mean he was effective, but I didn't see a lazy player. My read was that he wasn't in the the right spots, but this is the only full game I've watched of their team and coaching.

Second half
- He had a pick and short pop jay from 15 that missed, but the form looked alright.
- He hedged on defense on a screen one play, and when the wing dropped down onto Ayton, he reacted really quickly to fade out to the wing's man on the sideline. The wing left Ayton, which almost resulted in an easy alley-oop. What I liked was how quickly and instinctually Williams went from hedging to getting back to Ayton on the roll, to fading out to the wing. Whether that play would have been the wing's fault or William's fault on the miscommunication, I don't know.
- Ayton got the ball in the post and made a nice up and under on Williams. Would have liked to seen more fight to force him into a tougher shot.
- Williams turned it over on a post entry pass to his frontcourt mate. It was a low pass, but I think the frontcourt mate should have caught it.
- More meh screens. I don't think coaching or his guards helped him with this. One good thing was that it did appear like Williams was trying to make contact with the defender on the screens, even if his teammate wasn't rubbing shoulders.
- Williams got backscreened that opened Ayton to receive the post pass, make a move, and pass it off to his front court mate for an easy score. This looks like a miscommunication from his teammates -- not Williams fault. He did try to recover.
- He had a tough catch as he was moving backward toward the rim, with a quick turn and layup. It was an awkward offensive play, but it showed his agility and hands.
- Inconsistent box outs. He did some, especially when Ayton was in the game, but other times he didn't find a body when the ball went up.
- Impressive box out and ball-tracking against Arizona's other frontcourt player.
- He failed to deny the ball on Arizona's other frontcourt player. The player used a dropstep with a strong chicken wing to knock Williams back. He went up for the hook and a foul was called on Williams' teammate (Williams had a clean block even though he was knocked back).
- He made a tough high-low post entry pass from the free throw line that resulted in a foul.
- He had a nice early seal in the paint that resulted in a made right-handed hook shot.
- HE got a good loose-ball rebound using his length and jumping over the other Arizona front court player.
- He twice had an opposing driver dead to rights, ready to block their shots, but they were bailed out by cheap, lazy fouls by Williams teammates.
- Pretty helpside block on Trier that stayed in bounds and Texas AM got the ball back.
- He had one possession with two offensive rebounds, but an off-balance attempted put-back that missed. He kicked out the second one.
- Later on in the half he pushed the other Arizona front court player off the block well multiple possessions.
- He tipped away a post entry pass into Ayton as a helpside defender. He tried to collect it and start the fast break, but was out of bounds. HE WAS HYPED UP AFTER THIS PLAY.
- Arizona went on their last push when Williams went out of the game immediately after the previous play.
- Good activity onball defense on an inbounds pass that forced an Arizona timeout. HE WAS HYPED UP AFTER THIS PLAY.

Overall Impressions
- He played to his competition. He took it as a personal challenge against Ayton, but was not as engaged against the other Arizona frontcourt player.
- He played better the longer he was in the game both halfs. This could be a rhythm thing.
- I counted 5 times total where Williams was trying to load up for an alley-oop, but his teammates couldn't/wouldn't make the pass.
- Overall, I was impressed with his energy and competitiveness.
- He was the best athlete on the floor.
- Overall, I was frustrated with the Texas AM offensive system. It lacked rhythm, good looks, or complexity.

TP for your hard work.

What are your overall impressions in terms of what he can bring to the team, and what are your expectations? I think Williams can improve his shot.

EDIT: My sentence cut off lol.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 04:42:13 PM by Monkhouse »
"I bomb atomically, Socrates' philosophies and hypotheses
Can't define how I be dropping these mockeries."

Is the glass half-full or half-empty?
It's based on your perspective, quite simply
We're the same and we're not; know what I'm saying? Listen
Son, I ain't better than you, I just think different

Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2018, 04:51:04 PM »

Offline footey

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7895
  • Tommy Points: 1016
My summary.

First half:
- He had a faceup jay from 18 that missed, but the form looked alright.
- He denied the post entry pass to Ayton twice, both times forcing a turnover.
- He stripped Ayton on a post move once, forcing a turnover.
- He had a nice high low post entry pass to his frontcourt teammate for an easy score.
- He switched out to a guard, was initially beat, and then recovered for a pretty amazing block.
- He got physical with Ayton multiple times to force Ayton off his spot and deny the post entry pass. Ayton's low point total was at least partially because of Williams defense.
- He ended the first half on a pretty awesome play when his offensive player was trying to pick him as his teammate tried to drive. Williams was able to detach himself from the pick and block the driver's shot. He kept the block in bounds, which in my mind always counts a turnover (even if it doesn't with normal stats).
- He was open multiple times for lob dunks when his front court partner received the post entry pass, but his front court partner made the read too slow and the help defense recovered.
- He set pretty lazy screens, but the players he set screens for did not even try to use him correctly. This partially seemed like the result of a mechanical and ineffective set they were running.
- He stayed active most of the time. His energy was there on both sides of the ball. That doesn't mean he was effective, but I didn't see a lazy player. My read was that he wasn't in the the right spots, but this is the only full game I've watched of their team and coaching.

Second half
- He had a pick and short pop jay from 15 that missed, but the form looked alright.
- He hedged on defense on a screen one play, and when the wing dropped down onto Ayton, he reacted really quickly to fade out to the wing's man on the sideline. The wing left Ayton, which almost resulted in an easy alley-oop. What I liked was how quickly and instinctually Williams went from hedging to getting back to Ayton on the roll, to fading out to the wing. Whether that play would have been the wing's fault or William's fault on the miscommunication, I don't know.
- Ayton got the ball in the post and made a nice up and under on Williams. Would have liked to seen more fight to force him into a tougher shot.
- Williams turned it over on a post entry pass to his frontcourt mate. It was a low pass, but I think the frontcourt mate should have caught it.
- More meh screens. I don't think coaching or his guards helped him with this. One good thing was that it did appear like Williams was trying to make contact with the defender on the screens, even if his teammate wasn't rubbing shoulders.
- Williams got backscreened that opened Ayton to receive the post pass, make a move, and pass it off to his front court mate for an easy score. This looks like a miscommunication from his teammates -- not Williams fault. He did try to recover.
- He had a tough catch as he was moving backward toward the rim, with a quick turn and layup. It was an awkward offensive play, but it showed his agility and hands.
- Inconsistent box outs. He did some, especially when Ayton was in the game, but other times he didn't find a body when the ball went up.
- Impressive box out and ball-tracking against Arizona's other frontcourt player.
- He failed to deny the ball on Arizona's other frontcourt player. The player used a dropstep with a strong chicken wing to knock Williams back. He went up for the hook and a foul was called on Williams' teammate (Williams had a clean block even though he was knocked back).
- He made a tough high-low post entry pass from the free throw line that resulted in a foul.
- He had a nice early seal in the paint that resulted in a made right-handed hook shot.
- HE got a good loose-ball rebound using his length and jumping over the other Arizona front court player.
- He twice had an opposing driver dead to rights, ready to block their shots, but they were bailed out by cheap, lazy fouls by Williams teammates.
- Pretty helpside block on Trier that stayed in bounds and Texas AM got the ball back.
- He had one possession with two offensive rebounds, but an off-balance attempted put-back that missed. He kicked out the second one.
- Later on in the half he pushed the other Arizona front court player off the block well multiple possessions.
- He tipped away a post entry pass into Ayton as a helpside defender. He tried to collect it and start the fast break, but was out of bounds. HE WAS HYPED UP AFTER THIS PLAY.
- Arizona went on their last push when Williams went out of the game immediately after the previous play.
- Good activity onball defense on an inbounds pass that forced an Arizona timeout. HE WAS HYPED UP AFTER THIS PLAY.

Overall Impressions
- He played to his competition. He took it as a personal challenge against Ayton, but was not as engaged against the other Arizona frontcourt player.
- He played better the longer he was in the game both halfs. This could be a rhythm thing.
- I counted 5 times total where Williams was trying to load up for an alley-oop, but his teammates couldn't/wouldn't make the pass.
- Overall, I was impressed with his energy and competitiveness.
- He was the best athlete on the floor.
- Overall, I was frustrated with the Texas AM offensive system. It lacked rhythm, good looks, or complexity

TP for that, DWC, well done.

Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2018, 04:56:47 PM »

Online Emmette Bryant

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1159
  • Tommy Points: 237
that analysis was above and beyond, thanks

Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2018, 05:00:36 PM »

Offline chilidawg

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2009
  • Tommy Points: 261
that analysis was above and beyond, thanks

Agreed, fantastic job.

So the question is, what are we missing that caused GM's drafting 15-26 to pass on him.  Feels like we got a great pick.

Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2018, 05:12:02 PM »

Offline mmmmm

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3457
  • Tommy Points: 581
Ainge is in the crowd scouting the game at 45:47

https://youtu.be/7x7M3lYTMtQ?t=45m46s

Wonder if he already had Williams on the radar, or if he was mostly just there for Ayton?

As for Williams, he looks like a predator on defense, I like it a lot. Intense, intelligent, observant, strong, athletic.

Offensively he's gonna love catching lobs with competent passers, sad how often his teammates miss him here.

I believe Ainge scouts everybody.  I.E., I think he tries to have a deep book on every single player in the draft.   Because of two reasons I mentioned in a couple of front page threads:

a) He needs to be ready for any trade that might have him drafting at any point in the draft and
b) Players sometimes fall dramatically.

In the case of (b), Danny has clearly both jumped after falling players -- Sullinger, Avery Bradley, Gerald Green and maybe a couple of others that I am forgetting -- and also totally passed on falling players -- Skal Labissiere, Deyonta Davis, Perry Jones -- even when he's had spare draft picks to use on them!

So it tells me that Danny doesn't just decide to draft a Robert Williams because he fell from his ranking on public mock draft boards into reach at Danny's pick in order to be a contrarian.   He almost certainly does his due diligence on all these players and knows who he's willing to draft and who he doesn't want even at a late pick.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.
#OneCitizenOneVote - True Election Reform:  Eliminate the anti-democratic Electoral College farce now.

Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2018, 05:59:33 PM »

Offline chilidawg

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2009
  • Tommy Points: 261
Ainge is in the crowd scouting the game at 45:47

https://youtu.be/7x7M3lYTMtQ?t=45m46s

Wonder if he already had Williams on the radar, or if he was mostly just there for Ayton?

As for Williams, he looks like a predator on defense, I like it a lot. Intense, intelligent, observant, strong, athletic.

Offensively he's gonna love catching lobs with competent passers, sad how often his teammates miss him here.

I believe Ainge scouts everybody.  I.E., I think he tries to have a deep book on every single player in the draft.   Because of two reasons I mentioned in a couple of front page threads:

a) He needs to be ready for any trade that might have him drafting at any point in the draft and
b) Players sometimes fall dramatically.

In the case of (b), Danny has clearly both jumped after falling players -- Sullinger, Avery Bradley, Gerald Green and maybe a couple of others that I am forgetting -- and also totally passed on falling players -- Skal Labissiere, Deyonta Davis, Perry Jones -- even when he's had spare draft picks to use on them!

So it tells me that Danny doesn't just decide to draft a Robert Williams because he fell from his ranking on public mock draft boards into reach at Danny's pick in order to be a contrarian.   He almost certainly does his due diligence on all these players and knows who he's willing to draft and who he doesn't want even at a late pick.

I'm pretty sure Danny is good at making up his own mind, and pays little attention to mock drafts.  And I'm very glad of that.

Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2018, 06:25:20 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

  • NCE
  • Paul Pierce
  • ***************************
  • Posts: 27377
  • Tommy Points: 2086
Celtics gotta raise this young man .   He has the physical tools .

They have to put their stamp on the completion of his maturity .

Work ethic will be his mountain to climb .

Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2018, 06:33:13 PM »

Offline Beat LA

  • NCE
  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8338
  • Tommy Points: 896
  • Mr. Emoji
Celtics gotta raise this young man .   He has the physical tools .

They have to put their stamp on the completion of his maturity .

Work ethic will be his mountain to climb .

Is it fair to say, then, that he's off to a rather...rocky start ;) ::) ;D *groan*?

Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2018, 06:55:20 PM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2243
  • Tommy Points: 185
That’s the best case for optimism on Williams that I’ve read. Thanks for posting.

I’m still wondering, though. The teams that passed on him 1-26 probably have ESPN insider accounts. They knew this. So why did they pass on him? We’ve heard vague things about motor and off court problems. I have also read there were concerns about his knees (look at nbadraft.net’s pick evaluations for that).

Maybe the other teams all blew it. There’s a pretty solid record on picks at 27 over the past 10 years. Be pretty cool if the kid could put it together wearing green.


Sometimes when a mid tier guy starts dropping, teams have already fallen in love with their guy and its that bit more difficult to go for him. I think that definitely happened with a few of the picks along the way

Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2018, 07:38:17 PM »

Online DefenseWinsChamps

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2422
  • Tommy Points: 439
Footey and Monkhouse ...

My thoughts on him were mostly positive. He was the most athletic player on the court -- he was an explosive leaper, he had really quick feet, and he is much stronger than you first think (he bodied up Ayton several times). He wreaked havoc defensively. He made Ayton look passive. He was much more competitive and active than Ayton. He didn't dominate the entire game, but there were definite 2-3 minute stretches where he made offensive and defensive plays back-to-back-to-back-to-back. In those stretches, it felt like he was dominating. If that could be leveraged over a full game, there is extremely high level defensive potential in him.

I also have higher hopes for his ability in a good system, because the Texas AM system looked awful. It honestly looked like their coach had no idea how to use a player like Williams. Williams didn't help his case (he lacked assertiveness at times), but part of the coach's job is to put his players in a position to succeed.

If he accepts the challenge of the Celtic culture, of being picked later than expected, and of the higher level of competition, I think he'll do well. The fact that he clearly accepted the challenge of playing against the top player in this draft -- that bodes well for his future competitiveness.

His role is exactly what you would think. I think he could be a really high level defensive player and a rim runner. I have high hopes for his passing in high-lows and handoffs.

Past that, I've seen enough of his athleticism and shooting form to be open to the possibility that he could develop as an offensive player -- BUT I'M NOT HOLDING MY BREATH. He doesn't look as raw as a dribbler or shooter as Capella or Jordan at the same age, but its not like he is really far along. I think this could play out where, in the Celtics culture, he figures out how to be a comparable player to Jaren Jackson or Serge Ibaka. There is a possibility that he didn't develop because the Texas AM coached didn't know how to develop him and he didn't have a defined role that fit his offensive abilities.

We know that defense gets you on the court in CBS system. I already expected Horford as he ages to get less minutes. With Theis, Morris, and Yabu coming back, and the propensity of CBS to play small with Tatum, Brown, Hayward, and/or Smart at the 4, there aren't a lot of minutes. If they resign Baynes (a must for an impending Sixer matchup in the playoffs), there are even less minutes.

I expect him to get the first-year Rozier/Yabu treatment.

I could easily see Williams being the starter next to Horford in 2019-2020 (if he develops). Theis and Morris will likely be gone. Baynes will be older and may be gone.

In other words, 2018-2019 is a great opportunity for him to learn and develop under the best coach, in the best culture, with the best assistant coaches, and next to the smartest big men in the league.

Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2018, 07:53:32 PM »

Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7385
  • Tommy Points: 765
Footey and Monkhouse ...

My thoughts on him were mostly positive. He was the most athletic player on the court -- he was an explosive leaper, he had really quick feet, and he is much stronger than you first think (he bodied up Ayton several times). He wreaked havoc defensively. He made Ayton look passive. He was much more competitive and active than Ayton. He didn't dominate the entire game, but there were definite 2-3 minute stretches where he made offensive and defensive plays back-to-back-to-back-to-back. In those stretches, it felt like he was dominating. If that could be leveraged over a full game, there is extremely high level defensive potential in him.

I also have higher hopes for his ability in a good system, because the Texas AM system looked awful. It honestly looked like their coach had no idea how to use a player like Williams. Williams didn't help his case (he lacked assertiveness at times), but part of the coach's job is to put his players in a position to succeed.

If he accepts the challenge of the Celtic culture, of being picked later than expected, and of the higher level of competition, I think he'll do well. The fact that he clearly accepted the challenge of playing against the top player in this draft -- that bodes well for his future competitiveness.

His role is exactly what you would think. I think he could be a really high level defensive player and a rim runner. I have high hopes for his passing in high-lows and handoffs.

Past that, I've seen enough of his athleticism and shooting form to be open to the possibility that he could develop as an offensive player -- BUT I'M NOT HOLDING MY BREATH. He doesn't look as raw as a dribbler or shooter as Capella or Jordan at the same age, but its not like he is really far along. I think this could play out where, in the Celtics culture, he figures out how to be a comparable player to Jaren Jackson or Serge Ibaka. There is a possibility that he didn't develop because the Texas AM coached didn't know how to develop him and he didn't have a defined role that fit his offensive abilities.

We know that defense gets you on the court in CBS system. I already expected Horford as he ages to get less minutes. With Theis, Morris, and Yabu coming back, and the propensity of CBS to play small with Tatum, Brown, Hayward, and/or Smart at the 4, there aren't a lot of minutes. If they resign Baynes (a must for an impending Sixer matchup in the playoffs), there are even less minutes.

I expect him to get the first-year Rozier/Yabu treatment.

I could easily see Williams being the starter next to Horford in 2019-2020 (if he develops). Theis and Morris will likely be gone. Baynes will be older and may be gone.

In other words, 2018-2019 is a great opportunity for him to learn and develop under the best coach, in the best culture, with the best assistant coaches, and next to the smartest big men in the league.

The only way he starts in a couple seasons is if something went wrong or horford agrees to come off the bench. Baynes won't be in his way as a starter it's horford, JB, kyrie, Hayward and Tatum. People keep forgetting that baynes started because of injuries. So, in a couple years if he is starting then that means we let a starter go or horford went to the bench. I can't see a scenario where he starts next to horford if Tatum and Brown continue their trajectory (if we don't make a trade, even then, that means we traded for someone good who will be a starter too).


I honestly think, if he is as good as he could be then Al will go to the bench or be let go/traded because this kid fits the timeline of the other guys. In two seasons horford will be 35 or 36, I think, he should be more willing at that age but who knows.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 07:59:04 PM by ImShakHeIsShaq »
It takes me 3hrs to get to Miami and 1hr to get to Orlando... but I *SPIT* on their NBA teams! "Bless God and bless the (Celts)"-Lady GaGa (she said gays but she really meant Celts)

Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2018, 07:59:36 PM »

Online DefenseWinsChamps

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2422
  • Tommy Points: 439
Footey and Monkhouse ...

My thoughts on him were mostly positive. He was the most athletic player on the court -- he was an explosive leaper, he had really quick feet, and he is much stronger than you first think (he bodied up Ayton several times). He wreaked havoc defensively. He made Ayton look passive. He was much more competitive and active than Ayton. He didn't dominate the entire game, but there were definite 2-3 minute stretches where he made offensive and defensive plays back-to-back-to-back-to-back. In those stretches, it felt like he was dominating. If that could be leveraged over a full game, there is extremely high level defensive potential in him.

I also have higher hopes for his ability in a good system, because the Texas AM system looked awful. It honestly looked like their coach had no idea how to use a player like Williams. Williams didn't help his case (he lacked assertiveness at times), but part of the coach's job is to put his players in a position to succeed.

If he accepts the challenge of the Celtic culture, of being picked later than expected, and of the higher level of competition, I think he'll do well. The fact that he clearly accepted the challenge of playing against the top player in this draft -- that bodes well for his future competitiveness.

His role is exactly what you would think. I think he could be a really high level defensive player and a rim runner. I have high hopes for his passing in high-lows and handoffs.

Past that, I've seen enough of his athleticism and shooting form to be open to the possibility that he could develop as an offensive player -- BUT I'M NOT HOLDING MY BREATH. He doesn't look as raw as a dribbler or shooter as Capella or Jordan at the same age, but its not like he is really far along. I think this could play out where, in the Celtics culture, he figures out how to be a comparable player to Jaren Jackson or Serge Ibaka. There is a possibility that he didn't develop because the Texas AM coached didn't know how to develop him and he didn't have a defined role that fit his offensive abilities.

We know that defense gets you on the court in CBS system. I already expected Horford as he ages to get less minutes. With Theis, Morris, and Yabu coming back, and the propensity of CBS to play small with Tatum, Brown, Hayward, and/or Smart at the 4, there aren't a lot of minutes. If they resign Baynes (a must for an impending Sixer matchup in the playoffs), there are even less minutes.

I expect him to get the first-year Rozier/Yabu treatment.

I could easily see Williams being the starter next to Horford in 2019-2020 (if he develops). Theis and Morris will likely be gone. Baynes will be older and may be gone.

In other words, 2018-2019 is a great opportunity for him to learn and develop under the best coach, in the best culture, with the best assistant coaches, and next to the smartest big men in the league.

The only way he starts in a couple seasons is if something went wrong or horford agrees to come off the bench. Baynes won't be in his way as a starter it's horford, JB, kyrie, Hayward and Tatum. People keep forgetting that baynes started because of injuries. So, in a couple years if he is starting then that means we let a starter go or horford went to the bench. I can't see a scenario where he starts next to horford if Tatum and Brown continue their trajectory (if we don't make a trade, even then, that means we traded for someone good who will be a starter too).

We're arguing semantics. I think Baynes would have started with certain matchups, but my point is that Williams could take that 20-25 minute a game role that Baynes had this year. It could also be more minutes as Horford ages.

Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2018, 08:25:01 PM »

Online tazzmaniac

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4090
  • Tommy Points: 364
- Overall, I was frustrated with the Texas AM offensive system. It lacked rhythm, good looks, or complexity.
Having watched 25 or so Texas A&M games over the past two seasons, I whole heartedly agree with this comment.  You'd have to work hard to put Williams in a worse situation from an offensive perspective. 

Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2018, 08:32:23 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5299
  • Tommy Points: 627
  • A true Celtic plays with heart.
Footey and Monkhouse ...

My thoughts on him were mostly positive. He was the most athletic player on the court -- he was an explosive leaper, he had really quick feet, and he is much stronger than you first think (he bodied up Ayton several times). He wreaked havoc defensively. He made Ayton look passive. He was much more competitive and active than Ayton. He didn't dominate the entire game, but there were definite 2-3 minute stretches where he made offensive and defensive plays back-to-back-to-back-to-back. In those stretches, it felt like he was dominating. If that could be leveraged over a full game, there is extremely high level defensive potential in him.

I also have higher hopes for his ability in a good system, because the Texas AM system looked awful. It honestly looked like their coach had no idea how to use a player like Williams. Williams didn't help his case (he lacked assertiveness at times), but part of the coach's job is to put his players in a position to succeed.

If he accepts the challenge of the Celtic culture, of being picked later than expected, and of the higher level of competition, I think he'll do well. The fact that he clearly accepted the challenge of playing against the top player in this draft -- that bodes well for his future competitiveness.

His role is exactly what you would think. I think he could be a really high level defensive player and a rim runner. I have high hopes for his passing in high-lows and handoffs.

Past that, I've seen enough of his athleticism and shooting form to be open to the possibility that he could develop as an offensive player -- BUT I'M NOT HOLDING MY BREATH. He doesn't look as raw as a dribbler or shooter as Capella or Jordan at the same age, but its not like he is really far along. I think this could play out where, in the Celtics culture, he figures out how to be a comparable player to Jaren Jackson or Serge Ibaka. There is a possibility that he didn't develop because the Texas AM coached didn't know how to develop him and he didn't have a defined role that fit his offensive abilities.

We know that defense gets you on the court in CBS system. I already expected Horford as he ages to get less minutes. With Theis, Morris, and Yabu coming back, and the propensity of CBS to play small with Tatum, Brown, Hayward, and/or Smart at the 4, there aren't a lot of minutes. If they resign Baynes (a must for an impending Sixer matchup in the playoffs), there are even less minutes.

I expect him to get the first-year Rozier/Yabu treatment.

I could easily see Williams being the starter next to Horford in 2019-2020 (if he develops). Theis and Morris will likely be gone. Baynes will be older and may be gone.

In other words, 2018-2019 is a great opportunity for him to learn and develop under the best coach, in the best culture, with the best assistant coaches, and next to the smartest big men in the league.

This is 100% exactly what I was thinking.

I wasn't sold on Williams. In fact, I disliked the pick greatly at first. I didn't think his game was going to translate anything more than a shot blocking big that can occasionally give Horford the needed 5-10 minute break. Ergo, essentially Theis. Which felt irrelevant, because I believed Tatum/Hayward could slot at the 4 occasionally to go super small ball.

But my skepticism led me to give him the benefit of the doubt, and I started researching him more in depth. I'm not going to lie. The results in terms of his character, his issues with being suspended, and not showing up to NBA Draft, combine, or being behind academically eerily reminded me of another player in Mitchell Robinson, who also had similar body/character negatives. It made me question myself, 'what the heck is wrong with this kid?'

Researching him more in detail, it's amazing that he still managed to put up numbers like he did at A&M. While he didn't blow out his freshman stats, they were pretty respectable in how he was not only playing out of position, but played in an offense that did not benefit bigs at all. As we both have said previously, his coach doesn't know how to use him. With the departure of their point guard, it also tended to give Williams the doubt that he was ever going to be used correctly. His motor seemed to fluctuate, while there were times where he was engaged in the highlights and few A&M games I've watched. He seemed to wilt when he isn't being used on offense. But he seems to be very active and hype once he delivers a powerful dunk, or block.The Fab Melo comparisons irk me greatly. I have no doubt that his handles will improve. He clearly needs a lot of work, and will need to learn how to stay engaged consistently to even prove himself ready to stay on the court.

I do agree with your assumption. I see him ending up in Maine for about 4-5 months like Yabusele. I think if everything pans out well, he'll be seeing solid 15-20 minutes by 2018-2019.

I also think Yabusele and Williams will develop some great chemistry playing together. Williams does have that ability to make the smart pass, and will excel in a give go where he sets a quick screen and roll out for the lob. He needs to learn how to not only create mismatches, but he needs to learn how to pass it out of the post quicker.

The one thing that surprised me the most is how long his arms are. We were gushing about Bamba's, and clearly his extra few inches provide him the necessary recovery when getting beat. But Williams came at half the fraction of price, and seems like he is embracing the culture, and saying the right things. He also seems like a rugged guy from his interview and his environment. Sort of like an enforcer, also the guy just looks like someone you don't want to mess with. Which is exactly what we need, to slot alongside Smart. His mid range jumper looks okay, and definitely could improve well enough to stretch past 18-20 feet.

We didn't do a work out with him, but as Stevens/Ainge have stated numerous times. The workout is simply a 'formality.' They know what he brings to the table, and his strengths/weaknesses. I do hope he figures out how to fix his FT%, and improve his shooting/passing/ball handling.

Ultimately, it is on him to prove that he can flourish and rise above the doubters and negative trademark association that he has undoubtedly brought. As many others have said, this is the 27th pick that became a steal. Expectations shouldn't be too high, but if Ainge is completely confident in his pick and choice, then I will without a doubt have 100% complete faith in him that he did enough due diligence to prove my doubt to rest.

Anyways TP to you DefenseWinsChamps, I always find your thoughts extremely informative and well written, even if at times, I don't agree with them.

There is literally no one else better than Horford, to teach Williams how to develop his game.
"I bomb atomically, Socrates' philosophies and hypotheses
Can't define how I be dropping these mockeries."

Is the glass half-full or half-empty?
It's based on your perspective, quite simply
We're the same and we're not; know what I'm saying? Listen
Son, I ain't better than you, I just think different