Author Topic: Ainge got his big at pick 27. Welcome Robert Williams  (Read 13510 times)

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Re: Ainge got his big at pick 27. Welcome Robert Williams
« Reply #345 on: June 23, 2018, 10:09:50 PM »

Offline bellerephon

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Iím willing to accept the Nike camp measurements as his minimum size, even if they are not officially NBA measurements I suspect they would not be too far off. I also can believe he has grown since then, but thereís no way to know how much right now.

Re: Ainge got his big at pick 27. Welcome Robert Williams
« Reply #346 on: June 23, 2018, 10:14:50 PM »

Online DefenseWinsChamps

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We need to be careful about pictures like this. They are not standing right next to each other and are not standing straight up with feet together. That means we canít really use that as a good comparison.

Well some posters (or at least one) wonít accept Nike camp measurements, so itís all weíve got.

This. I'm still digging. Instead of googling, I'm now looking up the photo galleries from teams that have NBA players that attended the combine last year or this year. I'll post the results later.

:)

Re: Ainge got his big at pick 27. Welcome Robert Williams
« Reply #347 on: June 23, 2018, 10:18:46 PM »

Online saltlover

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We need to be careful about pictures like this. They are not standing right next to each other and are not standing straight up with feet together. That means we canít really use that as a good comparison.

Well some posters (or at least one) wonít accept Nike camp measurements, so itís all weíve got.

This. I'm still digging. Instead of googling, I'm now looking up the photo galleries from teams that have NBA players that attended the combine last year or this year. I'll post the results later.

:)

I think itís best to let it go.  You had the correct response hours ago.  Those Nike numbers are far more likely to miss on the low side than the high side given that he was 17 at the time.  People will believe what they want to.
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Re: Ainge got his big at pick 27. Welcome Robert Williams
« Reply #348 on: June 23, 2018, 10:26:06 PM »

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Not exactly next to each other, but Davis is 6'10. I would presume the 6'9 part of Williams is correct. But can't really with Davis's hair  ::)
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Re: Ainge got his big at pick 27. Welcome Robert Williams
« Reply #349 on: June 23, 2018, 10:26:46 PM »

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We need to be careful about pictures like this. They are not standing right next to each other and are not standing straight up with feet together. That means we canít really use that as a good comparison.

Well some posters (or at least one) wonít accept Nike camp measurements, so itís all weíve got.

This. I'm still digging. Instead of googling, I'm now looking up the photo galleries from teams that have NBA players that attended the combine last year or this year. I'll post the results later.

:)

I think itís best to let it go.  You had the correct response hours ago.  Those Nike numbers are far more likely to miss on the low side than the high side given that he was 17 at the time.  People will believe what they want to.

Alright.  :) :) :)

I actually wasn't trying to win the argument anymore. I was enjoying the deep dig into a random tangent about a brand new Celtic. I realized late Thursday night that some people were going to take the glass-half-empty view with Williams no matter what.

Re: Ainge got his big at pick 27. Welcome Robert Williams
« Reply #350 on: June 23, 2018, 10:32:15 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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How big is Robert Williams really?

He was a 6-8 (without shoes) / 6-9 (in shoes) PF in the mold of a Tyrus Thomas a year ago. Now some are reporting he is 6-10 and a few others are still saying 6-9.

I looked up the draft measurements but his were not on there.

Is there any legit measurements on this guy? Is he a real 6-10? Or is he another average size PF pretending to be a center?
He didn't participate in the NBA combine.  So whether he's 6-9 or 6-10 is going to make a big difference to you?  I'd say he's Horford's size but with a bigger wingspan and much more athletic.
Yeah, he more than makes up for not being 6'11"-7' tall with his insane hops and his 7'5" wingspan. Plus, he's a very strong 240lbs. Guess who else was 6'9", 240lbs, and was an athletic defensive minded rebounder? Big Ben ;)

Forget the fact that Wallace was actually 6'7", iirc, as the guy had an insatiable desire to win and a motor that never quit, which are two of the very traits that Williams completely lacks, so aside from his measurables, I honestly don't see as to how they are at all similar players, but hopefully I'm wrong :).
Quote
Well, heís billed as 6í9Ē according to ESPN and BBallRef, but maybe it was the afro :P

I realize that, but in addition to reading, somewhere, that Wallace said that he was actually 6'7", here's a picture of him standing next to Bill Russell, who was also 6'9" -



Perhaps it's just a height in shoes versus without them kind of thing, idk, lol ;D.[/quote]

Quote
He also never achieved anything until Detroit took a flyer on him, with much more serious question marks (like a lack of any NBA talent) than Williams has. They also play quite similarly. Protect the ring in a similar manner, and chase boards in a similar manner. The line was obviously tongue-in-cheek, but there are definitely similarities

Listen, in fairness, I wasn't watching the NBA at that time, but from what I've been able to gather, the only questions surrounding Wallace, iirc, were those having to do with his being undersized and an almost complete lack of any semblance of an offensive game, whatsoever, not to mention the fact that, and this is one crucial difference between Williams and Wallace, Ben played at Virginia Union in Division II, so it's not like he was ever pegged as even a possible draftee, let alone a potential lottery pick, as was the case with "Phone Home" ::).

Physically, okay, sure, I can certainly see some similarities, but at the same time, no one ever questioned Wallace's motor nor his work ethic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLyCkZl2fMk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg5GyuCdBw8
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 10:43:36 PM by Beat LA »

Re: Ainge got his big at pick 27. Welcome Robert Williams
« Reply #351 on: June 23, 2018, 10:37:36 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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We need to be careful about pictures like this. They are not standing right next to each other and are not standing straight up with feet together. That means we canít really use that as a good comparison.

Well some posters (or at least one) wonít accept Nike camp measurements, so itís all weíve got.

This. I'm still digging. Instead of googling, I'm now looking up the photo galleries from teams that have NBA players that attended the combine last year or this year. I'll post the results later.

:)

I think itís best to let it go.  You had the correct response hours ago.  Those Nike numbers are far more likely to miss on the low side than the high side given that he was 17 at the time.  People will believe what they want to.
It is a silly discussion.  Williams height, length and jumping ability are clearly good enough to play center.  What really will matter in his ability to play center is his weight and strength.  Unlike say Noel who is a couple inches taller but built like Twiggy, Williams has a sturdy frame and appears to be pretty strong.  I suspect with NBA strength training he'll meet that bar too. 

Re: Ainge got his big at pick 27. Welcome Robert Williams
« Reply #352 on: June 23, 2018, 11:14:38 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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This fact is one of many reasons I consider Baynes to be a luxury item.  Between Horford, Theis, Williams, and Yabusele we should be able to patch together 48 minutes of center play.  And if Yabusele isnít ready to help with that in year 2, then he needs to be moved so that we can afford someone else who can (Baynes or otherwise).

Honestly, what do you see in Yabu? I'm not trying to make fun of you, nor anyone else, for that matter, who happens to like the guy, it's just that I don't understand as to the fascination with a player who couldn't even break into the rotation when the team was desperate for bodies. I get that he's a former first rounder *facepalm*, and all, but if we're being honest with ourselves, Jabari Bird showed far more even in that one game against the Bulls than Yabusele has over the last two years, draft-and-stash or not, but I'm weird :-\.

I donít see all that much.  But I donít get to see him in practice and know what the Celtics are asking him to work on and do when he gets in games.  If heís in the right place and making the right reads and rotations, thatís important, even though we wouldnít be able to see it in his limited time on court. He was drafted as a project, and he does need to be viewed through that lens, especially in his first year.

But what Iím saying is that he has $2.6 million guaranteed this year, and as weíre tight against the tax, it would be best if he can be at least a small contributor, even if itís as the 11th man in the rotation.  We donít have the the salary space to release him and take on a minimum free agent in all likelihood, so thatís why Iím against cutting him.  If heís completely useless, it will cost something to move him, and Iíd rather not have to spend something to get rid of him.  But as I said in the post you quoted, if he canít be relied on for a few minutes a game, then thatís what needs to happen. 

Iíd be disappointed if it came to that, because itíd have been a waste of a mid-1st, but I guess I knew thereíd be a few misses with all the 1st Ainge accumulated, so if this is one, so be it.

I'm probably wrong, here, but I don't remember a guy who was described as "the French Draymond Green", which is beyond hilarious for historical reasons, imo, lol ;D, being labeled as a project.

What I do recall, however, is that, he, along with Zizic, were primarily drafted because Ainge wanted to "save money" ::) by stashing them overseas as opposed to having to pay two first round picks BECAUSE TWO MAX CONTRACTS AND KEVIN DURANT ::).

That said, I was going to ask as to whether or not this is more of an issue related to finances as opposed to anything else, so it looks as though you've covered everything, there :).

Could we not have moved him, as well as Nader, in a deal for a second round pick, though? Surely, if Yabu is/was so highly valued around the league, would not someone, anyone, have been willing to take a chance on him for said price?

This fact is one of many reasons I consider Baynes to be a luxury item.  Between Horford, Theis, Williams, and Yabusele we should be able to patch together 48 minutes of center play.  And if Yabusele isnít ready to help with that in year 2, then he needs to be moved so that we can afford someone else who can (Baynes or otherwise).

Honestly, what do you see in Yabu? I'm not trying to make fun of you, nor anyone else, for that matter, who happens to like the guy, it's just that I don't understand as to the fascination with a player who couldn't even break into the rotation when the team was desperate for bodies. I get that he's a former first rounder *facepalm*, and all, but if we're being honest with ourselves, Jabari Bird showed far more even in that one game against the Bulls than Yabusele has over the last two years, draft-and-stash or not, but I'm weird :-\.
he was a 21 year old rookie playing in the US for the first time. he is better than the vast majority of gleague dregs. let's give another year and see if he develops or not. capela took a year or two, as did bradley, and perk.

I would understand the willingness to give him more time if he had even shown anything in a single game, but I just haven't seen it, yet. Plus, both Bradley and Capela were contributing in their first two years in the league, respectively, although, yes, in Perk's case, it took him until year three, but in fairness, I was never a Perk fan, lol ;D, not to mention the fact that I can find plenty of "gleague dregs" ::) who are better players than Guerschon Yabusele.

Re: Ainge got his big at pick 27. Welcome Robert Williams
« Reply #353 on: June 23, 2018, 11:21:49 PM »

Offline dmopower

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I don't know how to answer this. It's a measurement at an officially recognized basketball event in the states. It may not be official by NBA standards, but this seems like a pedantic critique made by someone unwilling to accept that he might be wrong.
It's not a measurement at an NBA sanctioned event. Typically, those tend to be all over the place, and I wouldn't take any of them without a grain of salt. That is all.

Picture of Williams and Ayton standing next to each other.
https://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/fan/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsircharlesincharge.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fgetty-images%2F2017%2F12%2F887877276-valley-of-the-sun-shootout-st-johns-v-grand-canyon.jpg.jpg&c=sc&w=850&h=560

Ayton is 7'1'' (measured 7'0'' in shoes at the 2014 Lebron James skills academy -- not official, I know, but he did not attend the combine)

Picture of Williams and Jontay Porter standing close to each other. Even with perspective, Williams looks taller.
https://www.semoball.com/photos/30/36/55/3036552-B.jpg

Porter is 6'11.5'' (measured OFFICIALLY at the combine in shoes)

I'm sure you'll say they're not official. That's true.

I don't know how much more official "not official" can get than the evidence we have that Williams is closer to 6'11'' than 6'8''.

 If you look at that pic you can clearly see that williams has a shorter neck and higher shoulders. I dont know how tall they are but this is easy to see. So a high standing reach makes sense.
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Re: Ainge got his big at pick 27. Welcome Robert Williams
« Reply #354 on: June 23, 2018, 11:29:59 PM »

Offline Emmette Bryant

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Re: Ainge got his big at pick 27. Welcome Robert Williams
« Reply #355 on: June 23, 2018, 11:47:36 PM »

Online saltlover

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This fact is one of many reasons I consider Baynes to be a luxury item.  Between Horford, Theis, Williams, and Yabusele we should be able to patch together 48 minutes of center play.  And if Yabusele isnít ready to help with that in year 2, then he needs to be moved so that we can afford someone else who can (Baynes or otherwise).

Honestly, what do you see in Yabu? I'm not trying to make fun of you, nor anyone else, for that matter, who happens to like the guy, it's just that I don't understand as to the fascination with a player who couldn't even break into the rotation when the team was desperate for bodies. I get that he's a former first rounder *facepalm*, and all, but if we're being honest with ourselves, Jabari Bird showed far more even in that one game against the Bulls than Yabusele has over the last two years, draft-and-stash or not, but I'm weird :-\.

I donít see all that much.  But I donít get to see him in practice and know what the Celtics are asking him to work on and do when he gets in games.  If heís in the right place and making the right reads and rotations, thatís important, even though we wouldnít be able to see it in his limited time on court. He was drafted as a project, and he does need to be viewed through that lens, especially in his first year.

But what Iím saying is that he has $2.6 million guaranteed this year, and as weíre tight against the tax, it would be best if he can be at least a small contributor, even if itís as the 11th man in the rotation.  We donít have the the salary space to release him and take on a minimum free agent in all likelihood, so thatís why Iím against cutting him.  If heís completely useless, it will cost something to move him, and Iíd rather not have to spend something to get rid of him.  But as I said in the post you quoted, if he canít be relied on for a few minutes a game, then thatís what needs to happen. 

Iíd be disappointed if it came to that, because itíd have been a waste of a mid-1st, but I guess I knew thereíd be a few misses with all the 1st Ainge accumulated, so if this is one, so be it.

I'm probably wrong, here, but I don't remember a guy who was described as "the French Draymond Green", which is beyond hilarious for historical reasons, imo, lol ;D, being labeled as a project.

What I do recall, however, is that, he, along with Zizic, were primarily drafted because Ainge wanted to "save money" ::) by stashing them overseas as opposed to having to pay two first round picks BECAUSE TWO MAX CONTRACTS AND KEVIN DURANT ::).

That said, I was going to ask as to whether or not this is more of an issue related to finances as opposed to anything else, so it looks as though you've covered everything, there :).

Could we not have moved him, as well as Nader, in a deal for a second round pick, though? Surely, if Yabu is/was so highly valued around the league, would not someone, anyone, have been willing to take a chance on him for said price?

He was absolutely seen as a project.  He hadnít been playing basketball all that long when he was drafted (about 4 years if I recall), and hadnít played at the highest levels of European competition.  The French Draymond Green thing came from a post-draft interview in which Yabu said that he wanted to model his game after Draymond.  This has nothing to do with anyone suggesting he would be the next Draymond ó just Yabuseleís apparent desire to be so.

Thatís said, Draymondís rookie year was terrible enough to make Smart look like a decent shooter.  Yabusele has far eclipsed him in that regard.

If we could have moved Yabu for a second, it probably means heís worth keeping to keep developing. If heís going to cost a pick to unload, it makes more sense to have the corresponding move for that salary all lined up ó otherwise itís best to keep him if thereís no specific use needed.
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Re: Ainge got his big at pick 27. Welcome Robert Williams
« Reply #356 on: June 24, 2018, 12:03:02 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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This fact is one of many reasons I consider Baynes to be a luxury item.  Between Horford, Theis, Williams, and Yabusele we should be able to patch together 48 minutes of center play.  And if Yabusele isnít ready to help with that in year 2, then he needs to be moved so that we can afford someone else who can (Baynes or otherwise).

Honestly, what do you see in Yabu? I'm not trying to make fun of you, nor anyone else, for that matter, who happens to like the guy, it's just that I don't understand as to the fascination with a player who couldn't even break into the rotation when the team was desperate for bodies. I get that he's a former first rounder *facepalm*, and all, but if we're being honest with ourselves, Jabari Bird showed far more even in that one game against the Bulls than Yabusele has over the last two years, draft-and-stash or not, but I'm weird :-\.

I donít see all that much.  But I donít get to see him in practice and know what the Celtics are asking him to work on and do when he gets in games.  If heís in the right place and making the right reads and rotations, thatís important, even though we wouldnít be able to see it in his limited time on court. He was drafted as a project, and he does need to be viewed through that lens, especially in his first year.

But what Iím saying is that he has $2.6 million guaranteed this year, and as weíre tight against the tax, it would be best if he can be at least a small contributor, even if itís as the 11th man in the rotation.  We donít have the the salary space to release him and take on a minimum free agent in all likelihood, so thatís why Iím against cutting him.  If heís completely useless, it will cost something to move him, and Iíd rather not have to spend something to get rid of him.  But as I said in the post you quoted, if he canít be relied on for a few minutes a game, then thatís what needs to happen. 

Iíd be disappointed if it came to that, because itíd have been a waste of a mid-1st, but I guess I knew thereíd be a few misses with all the 1st Ainge accumulated, so if this is one, so be it.

I'm probably wrong, here, but I don't remember a guy who was described as "the French Draymond Green", which is beyond hilarious for historical reasons, imo, lol ;D, being labeled as a project.

What I do recall, however, is that, he, along with Zizic, were primarily drafted because Ainge wanted to "save money" ::) by stashing them overseas as opposed to having to pay two first round picks BECAUSE TWO MAX CONTRACTS AND KEVIN DURANT ::).

That said, I was going to ask as to whether or not this is more of an issue related to finances as opposed to anything else, so it looks as though you've covered everything, there :).

Could we not have moved him, as well as Nader, in a deal for a second round pick, though? Surely, if Yabu is/was so highly valued around the league, would not someone, anyone, have been willing to take a chance on him for said price?

He was absolutely seen as a project.  He hadnít been playing basketball all that long when he was drafted (about 4 years if I recall), and hadnít played at the highest levels of European competition.  The French Draymond Green thing came from a post-draft interview in which Yabu said that he wanted to model his game after Draymond.  This has nothing to do with anyone suggesting he would be the next Draymond ó just Yabuseleís apparent desire to be so.

Thatís said, Draymondís rookie year was terrible enough to make Smart look like a decent shooter.  Yabusele has far eclipsed him in that regard.

If we could have moved Yabu for a second, it probably means heís worth keeping to keep developing. If heís going to cost a pick to unload, it makes more sense to have the corresponding move for that salary all lined up ó otherwise itís best to keep him if thereís no specific use needed.

Okay, fair enough, and thanks for correcting me :). I don't understand the logic about as to how he's probably worth keeping if we could have moved him for a second rounder, though. Wouldn't the opposite be true, instead? Like, trading a former 16th overall pick for any second rounder essentially shows as to how far he's fallen in terms of value, does it not? That's as to how I look at it, anyway :-\.

Oh well, here's to hoping that Robert Williams turns out to be the next Ben Wallace :) :-\.

Re: Ainge got his big at pick 27. Welcome Robert Williams
« Reply #357 on: June 24, 2018, 04:20:25 AM »

Offline Scintan

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Sure, Iíll just give you the rest of your natural life to queue up the good oleí list of guys who were available at pick #27 with all those attributes, plus a 7í6Ē wingspan, 40Ē vertical and 240 pound NBA body at 20.

Hint: there are 0 such players, so maybe donít sweat the impossible stuff so much.

People keep quoting his measurables as if they mean something.  They mean nothing if he can't harness them.  Maybe people need to watch more NFL drafts, or something, to understand how useless measurables are in the end. 

He can play, or learn to play, or he can't, regardless of his weight, wingspan, and jumping ability.

He averaged 12-8-1.4 on 56% shooting as a freshman playing in a bad system, with 2.7 blocks and .7 steals a game in 25 minutes. Other than Jaren Jackson Jr hitting 3ís and hitting a good FT%, which obviously do matter, Williams put up #4 pick in the draft #ís. Heíd have been a top 12 pick last year.

Youíre quoting intangibles as if theyíre the only thing. Study up.

I didn't quote anything about intangibles.  You should read posts before replying to them, especially if you're going to get snarky with your response.


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Re: Ainge got his big at pick 27. Welcome Robert Williams
« Reply #358 on: June 24, 2018, 08:40:30 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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How big is Robert Williams really?

He was a 6-8 (without shoes) / 6-9 (in shoes) PF in the mold of a Tyrus Thomas a year ago. Now some are reporting he is 6-10 and a few others are still saying 6-9.

I looked up the draft measurements but his were not on there.

Is there any legit measurements on this guy? Is he a real 6-10? Or is he another average size PF pretending to be a center?
He didn't participate in the NBA combine.  So whether he's 6-9 or 6-10 is going to make a big difference to you?  I'd say he's Horford's size but with a bigger wingspan and much more athletic.

Yes. 6-10 is already quite undersized for the center position. Another inch matters. Few players 6-9 can play 30+ minutes as a starting center. Reduces the likelihood of him being a starter down the road.

Do you know how many guys classified as pure centers by basketball-reference played 30+ mpg last season?

Seven, none of whom averaged as many as 34 minutes.

Add guys who swing to center, and youíre up to 14 players.  Thatís less than half the league (and weíve got one of them, Horford).

This fact is one of many reasons I consider Baynes to be a luxury item.  Between Horford, Theis, Williams, and Yabusele we should be able to patch together 48 minutes of center play.  And if Yabusele isnít ready to help with that in year 2, then he needs to be moved so that we can afford someone else who can (Baynes or otherwise).
And yet some of our best lineups had Baynes in them.
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Re: Ainge got his big at pick 27. Welcome Robert Williams
« Reply #359 on: June 24, 2018, 05:08:57 PM »

Offline Big333223

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I think we sometimes get too mixed up in worrying about 2-3 inches when it just doesn't matter that much. I think physical strength matters a lot more when it comes to how big of a position a player can play (and quickness is what matters going the other direction). Obviously it doesn't matter how strong Marcus Smart is, he'll never truly be able to bother someone's shot who is 8" taller but I don't think 4" matters nearly as much defensively if a player has the desire and the strength to not get bullied.

The pic above of Ben Wallace standing next to Bill Russell is evidence of that. Same goes for Semi be able to hold position in the post against some big centers this past year.

Just watching highlights, I'm not worried about his size or, obviously, his athleticism. His success in the NBA will be determined by his IQ and work ethic.
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