Author Topic: USCIS Creates Task Force To Review Old Naturalization Applications For Cheating  (Read 405 times)

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Offline kozlodoev

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The war on foreigners is on. I guess we get to keep the plastic flag, but it might now come with a 25% import duty :)

Quote
Last week, it emerged that the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Service (U.S.C.I.S.) had formed a task force in order to identify people who lied on their citizenship applications and to denaturalize them. Amid the overwhelming flow of reports of families being separated at the border and children being warehoused, this bit of bureaucratic news went largely unnoticed. But it adds an important piece to our understanding of how American politics and culture are changing.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/in-america-naturalized-citizens-no-longer-have-an-assumption-of-permanence
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 04:07:04 PM by kozlodoev »
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Re: USCIS Looks To Denaturalize Citizens
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2018, 02:45:14 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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Perhaps not purposeful, but this title is pretty clearly sensationalized. It seems to imply both that this is new (it’s not - started in the Obama administration) and that this is a broad scope effort (it’s not - it only applies to those who purposefully lied on their application and should’ve never been naturalized in the first place).

Anyways, not sure that I see a problem with this theoretically - these people who fall under this category absolutely should have their naturalized status revoked if they never should’ve been naturalized in the first place. Practically, though, I question the utility of this practice, and I imagine that the author is correct in her argument that the lines between “deliberate lie” and “innocent mistake” will often be blurred and exploited.
Whatever crushes individuality is despotism, by whatever name it may be called and whether it professes to be enforcing the will of God or the injunctions of men.

Re: USCIS Looks To Denaturalize Citizens
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2018, 02:55:19 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Practically, though, I question the utility of this practice, and I imagine that the author is correct in her argument that the lines between “deliberate lie” and “innocent mistake” will often be blurred and exploited.
Precisely my point. I'd also like to single out this passage:

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Historically, denaturalization has been an exceedingly rare occurrence, for good reason: by the time a person is naturalized, she has lived in this country for a number of years and has passed the hurdles of obtaining entry, legal permanent residency, and, finally, citizenship. The conceit of naturalization is that it makes an immigrant not only equal to natural-born citizens but indistinguishable from them. So denaturalization, much like the process of stripping a natural-born American of citizenship, has been an extraordinary procedure reserved for very serious cases, mostly those of war criminals.
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Re: USCIS Looks To Denaturalize Citizens
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2018, 03:05:19 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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Quote
Michael Bars, the U.S.C.I.S. spokesman, told the Washington Examiner that the agency is hiring dozens of lawyers for the new task force.

So how much taxpayer money will this rather needless & unnecessary task force cost us?

Obviously, lying on something like this is wrong. However, is it really worth it to pump resources into it to chase?  Seems rather needless, IMO.


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Re: USCIS Looks To Denaturalize Citizens
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2018, 03:07:05 PM »

Offline wiley

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TP to Kozlodoev for highlighting more extremism from the current administration...what a surprise it comes in the form of demonizing non white people...

Re: USCIS Looks To Denaturalize Citizens
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2018, 03:43:05 PM »

Online saltlover

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Quote
Michael Bars, the U.S.C.I.S. spokesman, told the Washington Examiner that the agency is hiring dozens of lawyers for the new task force.

So how much taxpayer money will this rather needless & unnecessary task force cost us?

Obviously, lying on something like this is wrong. However, is it really worth it to pump resources into it to chase?  Seems rather needless, IMO.

At a minimum (and I stress minimum) of $120k for salary and benefits per lawyer per year, and a minimum of 24 lawyers for “dozens”, you’re looking at a low estimate of abou $3 million per year.  Practically speaking I would expect salary and benefits to be 50% higher.  So a conservative estimate is in the $4-5 million range per year, and could easily be double that.  And this is merely for a task force, and not to implement any resulting policy.  This doesn’t sound like resources that would be used to go after a few hundred people who told significant lies of consequence.
“When an alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien. The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.”

Leviticus 19:33-34

Re: USCIS Looks To Denaturalize Citizens Who Lie On Their Applications
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2018, 03:52:53 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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If they can prove fraud, I don’t have a problem.


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Re: USCIS Looks To Denaturalize Citizens
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2018, 03:57:02 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Quote
Michael Bars, the U.S.C.I.S. spokesman, told the Washington Examiner that the agency is hiring dozens of lawyers for the new task force.

So how much taxpayer money will this rather needless & unnecessary task force cost us?

Obviously, lying on something like this is wrong. However, is it really worth it to pump resources into it to chase?  Seems rather needless, IMO.

At a minimum (and I stress minimum) of $120k for salary and benefits per lawyer per year, and a minimum of 24 lawyers for “dozens”, you’re looking at a low estimate of abou $3 million per year.  Practically speaking I would expect salary and benefits to be 50% higher.  So a conservative estimate is in the $4-5 million range per year, and could easily be double that.  And this is merely for a task force, and not to implement any resulting policy.  This doesn’t sound like resources that would be used to go after a few hundred people who told significant lies of consequence.
Let me help you:

One GS14 staffer starting at $114,600
https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/502029200

Two GS12-13 staffer starting at $81,500/year
https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/502200800

One GS11 staffer starting at $68,000
https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/502076200

Two GS5-9 Staffers at 36,000 (in your own Boston, MA)
https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/502201000
https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/502201100

That's likely not the full list of people that have been (or will be) hired, but it should give you an idea about the range of salaries there. And that's before we factor in the overhead.
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Re: USCIS Looks To Denaturalize Citizens Who Lie On Their Applications
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2018, 03:57:59 PM »

Offline liam

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If they can prove fraud, I don’t have a problem.

Does that mean the 1st lady is going to be denaturalized for lying on her applications?

Re: USCIS Looks To Denaturalize Citizens
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2018, 04:04:42 PM »

Offline liam

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Quote
Michael Bars, the U.S.C.I.S. spokesman, told the Washington Examiner that the agency is hiring dozens of lawyers for the new task force.

So how much taxpayer money will this rather needless & unnecessary task force cost us?

Obviously, lying on something like this is wrong. However, is it really worth it to pump resources into it to chase?  Seems rather needless, IMO.

At a minimum (and I stress minimum) of $120k for salary and benefits per lawyer per year, and a minimum of 24 lawyers for “dozens”, you’re looking at a low estimate of abou $3 million per year.  Practically speaking I would expect salary and benefits to be 50% higher.  So a conservative estimate is in the $4-5 million range per year, and could easily be double that.  And this is merely for a task force, and not to implement any resulting policy.  This doesn’t sound like resources that would be used to go after a few hundred people who told significant lies of consequence.
Let me help you:

One GS14 staffer starting at $114,600
https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/502029200

Two GS12-13 staffer starting at $81,500/year
https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/502200800

One GS11 staffer starting at $68,000
https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/502076200

Two GS5-9 Staffers at 36,000 (in your own Boston, MA)
https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/502201000
https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/502201100

That's likely not the full list of people that have been (or will be) hired, but it should give you an idea about the range of salaries there. And that's before we factor in the overhead.

...and waste, like sound proof phone booths and fancy pens, etc...

Re: USCIS Looks To Denaturalize Citizens Who Lie On Their Applications
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2018, 04:04:53 PM »

Offline celticinorlando

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If they can prove fraud, I don’t have a problem.

Does that mean the 1st lady is going to be denaturalized for lying on her applications?

Naw...she is of the right color and creed.
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Re: USCIS Looks To Denaturalize Citizens Who Lie On Their Applications
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2018, 04:12:30 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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If they can prove fraud, I don’t have a problem.

Does that mean the 1st lady is going to be denaturalized for lying on her applications?

Hey now, we're going to get a press conference fully detailing Melania's immigration history and records just about (checks watch)...22 months ago.

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/290935-trump-on-wifes-immigration-story-she-came-in-totally

Re: USCIS Looks To Denaturalize Citizens
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2018, 04:16:11 PM »

Online saltlover

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Quote
Michael Bars, the U.S.C.I.S. spokesman, told the Washington Examiner that the agency is hiring dozens of lawyers for the new task force.

So how much taxpayer money will this rather needless & unnecessary task force cost us?

Obviously, lying on something like this is wrong. However, is it really worth it to pump resources into it to chase?  Seems rather needless, IMO.

At a minimum (and I stress minimum) of $120k for salary and benefits per lawyer per year, and a minimum of 24 lawyers for “dozens”, you’re looking at a low estimate of abou $3 million per year.  Practically speaking I would expect salary and benefits to be 50% higher.  So a conservative estimate is in the $4-5 million range per year, and could easily be double that.  And this is merely for a task force, and not to implement any resulting policy.  This doesn’t sound like resources that would be used to go after a few hundred people who told significant lies of consequence.
Let me help you:

One GS14 staffer starting at $114,600
https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/502029200

Two GS12-13 staffer starting at $81,500/year
https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/502200800

One GS11 staffer starting at $68,000
https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/502076200

Two GS5-9 Staffers at 36,000 (in your own Boston, MA)
https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/502201000
https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/502201100

That's likely not the full list of people that have been (or will be) hired, but it should give you an idea about the range of salaries there. And that's before we factor in the overhead.

Yeah, as a former federal employee who lives in DC and regularly checks the federal job market here, I don’t need any help.  Attorneys coming directly out of law school almost all start at GS-13 at USCIS.  None will start below GS-12.  They will be located in DC, where the salary is $97k.  You also need to add in an extra 20ish percent for benefits (retirement, paid leave, health care).  Thus my $120k lower bound.  My gut says these will be GS 13-15 hires, as they’ll want people with experience.  GS-15 Step 1 is $135k, and new hires don’t have to start at step 1 if they’re coming from the private sector and can show a higher prior salary, or if they have prior government experience and thus are at or above step 1 already.  10 years of post law school experience is generally what you’re looking at for GS-15, although it could require a bit less for high flyers.

It will not be GS-5.  That’s literally defined as high school education in government hiring parlance, which is not “lawyers” as described in the quote.
“When an alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien. The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.”

Leviticus 19:33-34

Re: USCIS Looks To Denaturalize Citizens Who Lie On Their Applications
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2018, 04:20:48 PM »

Offline liam

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If they can prove fraud, I don’t have a problem.

Does that mean the 1st lady is going to be denaturalized for lying on her applications?

Hey now, we're going to get a press conference fully detailing Melania's immigration history and records just about (checks watch)...22 months ago.

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/290935-trump-on-wifes-immigration-story-she-came-in-totally

The tax returns will also be released at this time... waiting....

Re: USCIS Looks To Denaturalize Citizens
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2018, 04:20:55 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Yeah, as a former federal employee who lives in DC and regularly checks the federal job market here, I don’t need any help.  Attorneys coming directly out of law school almost all start at GS-13 at USCIS.  None will start below GS-12.  They will be located in DC, where the salary is $97k.  You also need to add in an extra 20ish percent for benefits (retirement, paid leave, health care).  Thus my $120k lower bound.  My gut says these will be GS 13-15 hires, as they’ll want people with experience.  GS-15 Step 1 is $135k, and new hires don’t have to start at step 1 if they’re coming from the private sector and can show a higher prior salary, or if they have prior government experience and thus are at or above step 1 already.  10 years of post law school experience is generally what you’re looking at for GS-15, although it could require a bit less for high flyers.

It will not be GS-5.  That’s literally defined as high school education in government hiring parlance, which is not “lawyers” as described in the quote.
Actually, the task force will apparently be located in LA, but yeah, I agree with most of this.

As for the GS-5s, I don't assume you can run an entire brand spanking new office with dozens of GS-12+ staff without any support personnel.
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