Author Topic: Zach Lowe compares Kawhi and Jaylen  (Read 7330 times)

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Re: Zach Lowe compares Kawhi and Jaylen
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2018, 06:45:30 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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And this is why I keep bringing up...

Are we sure that Tatum's ceiling is higher than Jaylen's?

"Tatum’s ceiling higher than Brown - not so fast"
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=94450.0;topicseen

Yes it is

You cant teach what Tatum possesses

At this point, I might be inclined to agree to a point, but on the other hand, what you're saying, here, makes absolutely no sense, imo. Is it not possible to "teach" basketball skills?



;D

Presumably it is since Tatum learned them somewhere.

Re: Zach Lowe compares Kawhi and Jaylen
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2018, 07:09:15 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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And this is why I keep bringing up...

Are we sure that Tatum's ceiling is higher than Jaylen's?

"Tatum’s ceiling higher than Brown - not so fast"
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=94450.0;topicseen

Yes it is

You cant teach what Tatum possesses

At this point, I might be inclined to agree to a point, but on the other hand, what you're saying, here, makes absolutely no sense, imo. Is it not possible to "teach" basketball skills?



;D

Presumably it is since Tatum learned them somewhere.

Yeah, I agree, it's just that I'm just not so sure that a guy can suddenly acquire elite footwork after, say, dedicating an entire summer to it, as I just think that if you aren't at least a very good ball handler, for example, by the time of the NBA draft, it's pretty unlikely that you're going to turn into Steph, Kyrie, or Joe Johnson, but maybe I'm wrong.

Still, I'd rather take a guy who has the handle, footwork, and post game, etc., but lacks a consistent jumper as opposed to drafting a dude who basically has to learn as to how to play the sport, you know, lol ;D?

Re: Zach Lowe compares Kawhi and Jaylen
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2018, 07:14:08 PM »

Offline Sketch5

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They are not similar.... body type, explosiveness, shooting mechanics,  think the game differently.  Defensive versatility is the only one thing in common, but Kawhi is a step ahead of course

Brown needs to "calm" his mind in crucial situations and focus on taking the right shot/making the correct play.  Needs to improve on jump shot/FT shot.  Be assertive when attacking the basket

Expecting him to noticeably improve handles is a fantasy.


He may or may not improve from where he is now. But he noticeably improved from year 1 to year 2. So I wouldn't say it is fantasy.

did he really ?  against the Cavs he got pick pocket driving to the hoop, one too many times.  He was still not all that comfortable driving  left. 

With some daylight he has a good enough straight line handle to get to the basket.  In transition, he has good enough straight line handle to make it all the way to the basket.  But in a crowded situation.... .   If he can get stronger it can help

Its ok if won't be able to handle the ball like Tatum or Lebron.  Iguadala is mainly a straight line drive guy and he is a very good player.  Brown should try to improve his handle but also accept limitations at some point.  His jump shot on the other hand.... there is much more room for improvement
 

I think he did improve quite a bit form year one to year two. I noticed in the Philly and CAVS series he digressed a bit with his handles. Maybe the hamstring kept him off balanced enough that his handles got sloppy, which would make sense for some one that is newly improved with them that an injury can effect them. Irving was getting picked a lot more near the end of the season before he got the surgery.

I don't expect Brown to dance with the ball, I think he just needs to tighten up the handles a bit, keep the ball closer to him. And then have a stronger cross over, and a hard quick drive.

Re: Zach Lowe compares Kawhi and Jaylen
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2018, 07:47:50 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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They are not similar.... body type, explosiveness, shooting mechanics,  think the game differently.  Defensive versatility is the only one thing in common, but Kawhi is a step ahead of course

Brown needs to "calm" his mind in crucial situations and focus on taking the right shot/making the correct play.  Needs to improve on jump shot/FT shot.  Be assertive when attacking the basket

Expecting him to noticeably improve handles is a fantasy.

Triboy, I'm really curious as to what you're talking about. Think the game differently would insinuate that you're privy to both their thoughts, so can you please expand on this? This could be more intriguing than Lowe's article.

Re: Zach Lowe compares Kawhi and Jaylen
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2018, 09:16:34 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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And this is why I keep bringing up...

Are we sure that Tatum's ceiling is higher than Jaylen's?

"Tatum’s ceiling higher than Brown - not so fast"
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=94450.0;topicseen

Yes it is

You cant teach what Tatum possesses

At this point, I might be inclined to agree to a point, but on the other hand, what you're saying, here, makes absolutely no sense, imo. Is it not possible to "teach" basketball skills?



;D

Presumably it is since Tatum learned them somewhere.

Yeah, I agree, it's just that I'm just not so sure that a guy can suddenly acquire elite footwork after, say, dedicating an entire summer to it, as I just think that if you aren't at least a very good ball handler, for example, by the time of the NBA draft, it's pretty unlikely that you're going to turn into Steph, Kyrie, or Joe Johnson, but maybe I'm wrong.

Still, I'd rather take a guy who has the handle, footwork, and post game, etc., but lacks a consistent jumper as opposed to drafting a dude who basically has to learn as to how to play the sport, you know, lol ;D?

For sure, I just think people have a tendency to undersell how much players improve their skill at the NBA level. Its their entire job now, they have access to resources and time (plus massive incentive) to get better and pretty much everyone needs to. Even Tatum who we would all agree is pretty a killed will need massive improvement to reach his ceiling. His handle isnt exactly elite, he can stones at the point of attacking if his first move fails, he loses the ball routinely on the drive and he needs to improve his finishing. But I think he will get better.

In Brown case he may not be as skilled, but he also wont need to reach Tatums level to be as good as Tatum. He is truly explosive which means even a better than average handle will make him unguardable. He doesnt need to be steph or irving cuz hes bigger and longer more explisive even, then those guys. Footwork matters alot less if the guy guarding you is behind you. Now gun to my head I think Tatum will be the better player, but im not counting out Brown. All the things he need to improve in are things he has at least shown flashes in, and hes shown himself capable of making a big leap, and improving as a season goes along. So we a shall see.

Re: Zach Lowe compares Kawhi and Jaylen
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2018, 09:27:36 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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And this is why I keep bringing up...

Are we sure that Tatum's ceiling is higher than Jaylen's?

"Tatum’s ceiling higher than Brown - not so fast"
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=94450.0;topicseen

Yes it is

You cant teach what Tatum possesses

At this point, I might be inclined to agree to a point, but on the other hand, what you're saying, here, makes absolutely no sense, imo. Is it not possible to "teach" basketball skills?



;D

2 min left you need a bucket

Tatum is locked in

Brown looks overwhelmed at times

Tatum finds a way to get a bucket (more often than not)

Brown may run into a crowd. Or try a 3 when he has been ice cold all game.

Tatum has the "it" factor.  Can Brown become like this ? Maybe...hopefully

Re: Zach Lowe compares Kawhi and Jaylen
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2018, 09:37:12 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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And this is why I keep bringing up...

Are we sure that Tatum's ceiling is higher than Jaylen's?

"Tatum’s ceiling higher than Brown - not so fast"
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=94450.0;topicseen

Yes it is

You cant teach what Tatum possesses

At this point, I might be inclined to agree to a point, but on the other hand, what you're saying, here, makes absolutely no sense, imo. Is it not possible to "teach" basketball skills?



;D

2 min left you need a bucket

Tatum is locked in

Brown looks overwhelmed at times

Tatum finds a way to get a bucket (more often than not)

Brown may run into a crowd. Or try a 3 when he has been ice cold all game.

Tatum has the "it" factor.  Can Brown become like this ? Maybe...hopefully


Re: Zach Lowe compares Kawhi and Jaylen
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2018, 09:40:52 PM »

Offline gouki88

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And this is why I keep bringing up...

Are we sure that Tatum's ceiling is higher than Jaylen's?

"Tatum’s ceiling higher than Brown - not so fast"
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=94450.0;topicseen

Yes it is

You cant teach what Tatum possesses

At this point, I might be inclined to agree to a point, but on the other hand, what you're saying, here, makes absolutely no sense, imo. Is it not possible to "teach" basketball skills?



;D

2 min left you need a bucket

Tatum is locked in

Brown looks overwhelmed at times

Tatum finds a way to get a bucket (more often than not)

Brown may run into a crowd. Or try a 3 when he has been ice cold all game.

Tatum has the "it" factor.  Can Brown become like this ? Maybe...hopefully


Semi's participation in that play was executed perfectly
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Zach Lowe compares Kawhi and Jaylen
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2018, 09:42:30 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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And this is why I keep bringing up...

Are we sure that Tatum's ceiling is higher than Jaylen's?

"Tatum’s ceiling higher than Brown - not so fast"
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=94450.0;topicseen

Yes it is

You cant teach what Tatum possesses

At this point, I might be inclined to agree to a point, but on the other hand, what you're saying, here, makes absolutely no sense, imo. Is it not possible to "teach" basketball skills?



;D

You act like every nba prospect or even vets can watch this "ball hog" video, practice with those gloves and eventually become an amazing ball handler.  Whats next, with practice it is not impossible to shoot like Steph Curry?

you are either gullible to this type of marketing or overly optimistic



Re: Zach Lowe compares Kawhi and Jaylen
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2018, 10:02:46 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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And this is why I keep bringing up...

Are we sure that Tatum's ceiling is higher than Jaylen's?

"Tatum’s ceiling higher than Brown - not so fast"
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=94450.0;topicseen

Yes it is

You cant teach what Tatum possesses

At this point, I might be inclined to agree to a point, but on the other hand, what you're saying, here, makes absolutely no sense, imo. Is it not possible to "teach" basketball skills?



;D

2 min left you need a bucket

Tatum is locked in

Brown looks overwhelmed at times

Tatum finds a way to get a bucket (more often than not)

Brown may run into a crowd. Or try a 3 when he has been ice cold all game.

Tatum has the "it" factor.  Can Brown become like this ? Maybe...hopefully
Chalking up this opinion I cimpletely disagree with to recency bias. Tatum showed up in game 7 and Brown was bad. Forgotten is how amazing Brown was in game 6 and the only other Celtic that tried to end the series in 6 was Rozier. Everyone else, Tatum included, looked.....overwhelmed.

Brown shot 40 % in the regular season and during the playoffs on high volume. You want those guys to continue to shoot 3s. Even if they are cold. You know who shot the three real bad in the playoffs and at times looked overwhelmed shooting from three, for a lot of playoff games...Tatum.

And the whole, Brown loses the ball running into crowds thing is so overblown. His turnover rate and turnovers per game just don't show that, especially in the recent playoffs where he had a 7.4% TO rate for a usage of 24%.

Brown and Tatum both show to me that in different ways, they are going to be major difference makers.

Re: Zach Lowe compares Kawhi and Jaylen
« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2018, 10:29:36 PM »

Offline sirnastee

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They are not similar.... body type, explosiveness, shooting mechanics,  think the game differently.  Defensive versatility is the only one thing in common, but Kawhi is a step ahead of course

Brown needs to "calm" his mind in crucial situations and focus on taking the right shot/making the correct play.  Needs to improve on jump shot/FT shot.  Be assertive when attacking the basket

Expecting him to noticeably improve handles is a fantasy.


He may or may not improve from where he is now. But he noticeably improved from year 1 to year 2. So I wouldn't say it is fantasy.

did he really ?  against the Cavs he got pick pocket driving to the hoop, one too many times.  He was still not all that comfortable driving  left. 

With some daylight he has a good enough straight line handle to get to the basket.  In transition, he has good enough straight line handle to make it all the way to the basket.  But in a crowded situation.... .   If he can get stronger it can help

Its ok if won't be able to handle the ball like Tatum or Lebron.  Iguadala is mainly a straight line drive guy and he is a very good player.  Brown should try to improve his handle but also accept limitations at some point.  His jump shot on the other hand.... there is much more room for improvement
 

I think he did improve quite a bit form year one to year two. I noticed in the Philly and CAVS series he digressed a bit with his handles. Maybe the hamstring kept him off balanced enough that his handles got sloppy, which would make sense for some one that is newly improved with them that an injury can effect them. Irving was getting picked a lot more near the end of the season before he got the surgery.

I don't expect Brown to dance with the ball, I think he just needs to tighten up the handles a bit, keep the ball closer to him. And then have a stronger cross over, and a hard quick drive.

Totally agree with this.  Brown significantly improved his handles this past year and it showed during the regular season.  It was just against philly and cavs when it seemed like he was constantly getting stripped during the drive.  Maybe the defenses made it a point to go after the strip, but jaylen definitely improved his handles and shooting from year 1. 

Re: Zach Lowe compares Kawhi and Jaylen
« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2018, 10:35:35 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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And this is why I keep bringing up...

Are we sure that Tatum's ceiling is higher than Jaylen's?

"Tatum’s ceiling higher than Brown - not so fast"
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=94450.0;topicseen

Yes it is

You cant teach what Tatum possesses

At this point, I might be inclined to agree to a point, but on the other hand, what you're saying, here, makes absolutely no sense, imo. Is it not possible to "teach" basketball skills?



;D

You act like every nba prospect or even vets can watch this "ball hog" video, practice with those gloves and eventually become an amazing ball handler.  Whats next, with practice it is not impossible to shoot like Steph Curry?

you are either gullible to this type of marketing or overly optimistic

That's actually the complete opposite of what I am saying, but whatever ::).

Re: Zach Lowe compares Kawhi and Jaylen
« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2018, 10:40:33 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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In the playoffs, Brown had less overall turnovers, less per game turnovers, and a lower turnover percentage by a fairly significant margin than Tatum.

And Tatum and Brown finished at the rim at the exact same 63.9% rate. So I don't see how anyone can claim Brown somehow was bad going to the basket in the playoffs without being just as skepticle of Tatum's abilities.

Re: Zach Lowe compares Kawhi and Jaylen
« Reply #43 on: June 20, 2018, 10:45:53 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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And this is why I keep bringing up...

Are we sure that Tatum's ceiling is higher than Jaylen's?

"Tatum’s ceiling higher than Brown - not so fast"
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=94450.0;topicseen

Yes it is

You cant teach what Tatum possesses

At this point, I might be inclined to agree to a point, but on the other hand, what you're saying, here, makes absolutely no sense, imo. Is it not possible to "teach" basketball skills?



;D

2 min left you need a bucket

Tatum is locked in

Brown looks overwhelmed at times

Tatum finds a way to get a bucket (more often than not)

Brown may run into a crowd. Or try a 3 when he has been ice cold all game.

Tatum has the "it" factor.  Can Brown become like this ? Maybe...hopefully
Chalking up this opinion I cimpletely disagree with to recency bias. Tatum showed up in game 7 and Brown was bad. Forgotten is how amazing Brown was in game 6 and the only other Celtic that tried to end the series in 6 was Rozier. Everyone else, Tatum included, looked.....overwhelmed.

Brown shot 40 % in the regular season and during the playoffs on high volume. You want those guys to continue to shoot 3s. Even if they are cold. You know who shot the three real bad in the playoffs and at times looked overwhelmed shooting from three, for a lot of playoff games...Tatum.

And the whole, Brown loses the ball running into crowds thing is so overblown. His turnover rate and turnovers per game just don't show that, especially in the recent playoffs where he had a 7.4% TO rate for a usage of 24%.

Brown and Tatum both show to me that in different ways, they are going to be major difference makers.

In fairness, all too often both Brown and Tatum continue to dribble on the same side as the nearby help defense, if not opting to dribble into it, entirely, and the results aren't exactly pretty, lol ;D.

On another front, if the three isn't dropping for the both/either of them, I'd like to see those two try to get to the line or post up or something else as opposed to just continuing to chuck shots from beyond the arc because analytics, lol ::) ;D. Ugh.

Get a layup, a foul, or something else easier and then your three point shot will start dropping, but to continue to just bomb away from three, and especially when you can't seem to throw it in the ocean from the beach, so to speak, is beyond stupid, imo.

Re: Zach Lowe compares Kawhi and Jaylen
« Reply #44 on: June 20, 2018, 10:48:52 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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And this is why I keep bringing up...

Are we sure that Tatum's ceiling is higher than Jaylen's?

"Tatum’s ceiling higher than Brown - not so fast"
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=94450.0;topicseen

Yes it is

You cant teach what Tatum possesses

At this point, I might be inclined to agree to a point, but on the other hand, what you're saying, here, makes absolutely no sense, imo. Is it not possible to "teach" basketball skills?



;D

2 min left you need a bucket

Tatum is locked in

Brown looks overwhelmed at times

Tatum finds a way to get a bucket (more often than not)

Brown may run into a crowd. Or try a 3 when he has been ice cold all game.

Tatum has the "it" factor.  Can Brown become like this ? Maybe...hopefully
Chalking up this opinion I cimpletely disagree with to recency bias. Tatum showed up in game 7 and Brown was bad. Forgotten is how amazing Brown was in game 6 and the only other Celtic that tried to end the series in 6 was Rozier. Everyone else, Tatum included, looked.....overwhelmed.

Brown shot 40 % in the regular season and during the playoffs on high volume. You want those guys to continue to shoot 3s. Even if they are cold. You know who shot the three real bad in the playoffs and at times looked overwhelmed shooting from three, for a lot of playoff games...Tatum.

And the whole, Brown loses the ball running into crowds thing is so overblown. His turnover rate and turnovers per game just don't show that, especially in the recent playoffs where he had a 7.4% TO rate for a usage of 24%.

Brown and Tatum both show to me that in different ways, they are going to be major difference makers.

So how come Brown went 1-5 and scored 2 pts in game 7 vs Bucks?

And we all know what happened vs the Cavs

Small sample but nervous two game 7s in a row?

Tatum on the other hand doesnt seem to bow down to this kind pressure (for the most part). I mean two solid game 7 performances

Both are nice young talents. Matter of fact seems like Tatum is a cold starter and Brown usually starts strong. And it seems like this trend flips as the game goes on.  There is a higher value placed on closers/come through in clutch talents

So this is why Tatum is considered(fans, media) pretty much untouchable and Brown has been involved in recent trade talks (rumor, media etc)
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 11:09:11 PM by triboy16f »