Author Topic: Could Ainge/Stevens go completely positionless?  (Read 1221 times)

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Could Ainge/Stevens go completely positionless?
« on: June 18, 2018, 10:31:58 AM »

Offline Ed Hollison

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Well, not completely, per se. But the latest chatter about both Kyrie Irving and Kawhi Leonard has me wondering.

Those of us who were fans in the 1990s might remember how the Bulls utilized Ron Harper in their backcourt with Michael Jordan. Harper was no longer an explosive athlete by the time he came to Chicago, but at that point he was a savvy veteran who fit the team's identity. What he was definitely not was a point guard. Given the team's triangle offense, it didn't matter. All you needed was someone to bring the ball up the court, and the players all ran the offensive system from that point forward. You happened to also have an all-world defender in Jordan who could clamp down on speedy PGs on defense, if you needed it.

The point is that the league has seen a no-PG starting lineup before. Multiple times before, in fact. I remember a few years before that, Steve Smith and Brian Shaw started for the Heat and called themselves "one-and-a-half" guards. You don't need a little speedy guy in the lineup.

Could the Celtics trade Kyrie for Kawhi straight up with this in mind? I'm doubtful for other reasons -- there is still a health concern about Leonard, and no guarantee that he'd re-sign past 2018-19 either -- but it's possible that it could work from a pure basketball point of view. You'd have very solid ballhandlers everywhere (except maybe Jaylen Brown), meaning there's multiple guys who can bring the ball up the court. Everyone in that lineup could shoot, pass, and make plays. They would physically beat the pulp out of smaller backcourts. (Pray for Lillard and McCollum.)

On defense, you'd have an issue chasing around the speedier PGs. But you've got Jaylen Brown, who's young and fast enough to at least hang with players like that. Meanwhile, you could switch pretty much everything and never be caught in a defensive mismatch, which as we've seen is a huge asset in the playoffs.

Again, I think the Celtics really like Kyrie Irving as a player and a teammate, and I think Kyrie likes them back. There is a really strong chance he re-signs and at this point I see no reason to part ways with him. But if the Celtics worry that he might be gone after this season, I wonder if they'll just scrap the whole PG concept altogether.
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Re: Could Ainge/Stevens go completely positionless?
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2018, 10:57:41 AM »

Offline td450

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This thought occurred to me as well. I don't think that Kawhi Leonard is someone who would want to stay here. His roots are 100% LA/San Diego, so I think he's serious about forcing a trade there. But if we could pull this off, trading Kyrie would be a fascinating experiment. If you believe you could get Kawhi to stay, trading a package around Kyrie is very likely to be the best bid available to SA, and the numbers line up.

Having Hayward would probably give us enough of a primary ball handler to get by, and everyone could create for themselves. It would be an amazing experiment. I think it would work. I agree Brown is quick enough to handle point guards, especially when there is a forest of arms behind him.

Re: Could Ainge/Stevens go completely positionless?
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2018, 11:02:56 AM »

Offline CFAN38

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without trading anyone I expect the Cs to implement a no guard lineup at times next season.

Brown,Tatum,Hayward, Morris (semi if Morris is traded, and Horford should be a functional lineup that really exploits any player under 6'4. 
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Re: Could Ainge/Stevens go completely positionless?
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2018, 02:59:20 PM »

Offline johnnygreen

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First off, I'm in the keep Kyrie camp, but I'll play along here. Why not take this experiment a step further? On draft night, Danny should try to trade up into the top 5 for Doncic by using Jaylen Brown. Doncic could basically be the Celtics version of Ben Simmons, but who could also shoot. Imagine this lineup:

Luka Doncic
Gordon Hayward
Kawhi Leonard
Jason Tatum
Al Horford
 

Re: Could Ainge/Stevens go completely positionless?
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2018, 03:08:28 PM »

Offline td450

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First off, I'm in the keep Kyrie camp, but I'll play along here. Why not take this experiment a step further? On draft night, Danny should try to trade up into the top 5 for Doncic by using Jaylen Brown. Doncic could basically be the Celtics version of Ben Simmons, but who could also shoot. Imagine this lineup:

Luka Doncic
Gordon Hayward
Kawhi Leonard
Jason Tatum
Al Horford
In a positionless scenario, offense isn't as much of a problem as defense is. Doncic is going to be a very good player, but he's only able to defend a narrow range. You need Jaylen's defensive quickness more than Doncic's ball handling. Hayward can run the offense.



Re: Could Ainge/Stevens go completely positionless?
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2018, 03:14:33 PM »

Offline Sophomore

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I'm against trading for Kawhi, too, because I don't trust his health and motivation.

But if it happened and we got a healthy Kawhi i'd love to see what that lineup could do. You wouldn't need to go positionless the whole game. You'd have at least one of Rozier and Smart, and they'd take some PG minutes during the game. You'd just send out your Cape Cod 5 lineup for key stretches - maybe start of the 3d or the last six minutes.

You could also have a jumbo version to eat minutes against Philly that adds Baynes (for Embiid) and swaps out one of the "small" players. And the version with Smart, Brown, Kawhi, Horford, and one of Tatum/Hayward is still a fully switchable defensive menace with plenty of offensive firepower.

The league might hate that lineup - too hard to score against them.

Re: Could Ainge/Stevens go completely positionless?
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2018, 03:44:17 PM »

Offline johnnygreen

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This is interesting...

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Another draft nugget......the @celtics are aggressively pursuing a trade up and are targeting Luka Doncic. There is some competition from other teams looking to move up for him too.

I just read this in another thread. If Danny believes in Doncic, then in Danny I trust. I would think the only way to get Doncic would be to trade another young player in return, which is why I initially mentioned Brown. The other benefit is it would add two more years of team control.

Re: Could Ainge/Stevens go completely positionless?
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2018, 04:29:42 PM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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I'm against trading for Kawhi, too, because I don't trust his health and motivation.

But if it happened and we got a healthy Kawhi i'd love to see what that lineup could do. You wouldn't need to go positionless the whole game. You'd have at least one of Rozier and Smart, and they'd take some PG minutes during the game. You'd just send out your Cape Cod 5 lineup for key stretches - maybe start of the 3d or the last six minutes.

You could also have a jumbo version to eat minutes against Philly that adds Baynes (for Embiid) and swaps out one of the "small" players. And the version with Smart, Brown, Kawhi, Horford, and one of Tatum/Hayward is still a fully switchable defensive menace with plenty of offensive firepower.

The league might hate that lineup - too hard to score against them.

Isn’t it convenient that his camp is now reporting he is 100% healthy not long after he refused to play because he was still in pain?

He couldn’t lace ‘em up even for the playoffs, but now he is good to go after announcing he wanted to be moved. And they are still trying to say he didn’t refuse to play.

He is coming off as a clown to an organization that has a great reputation. Regardless of whether he was happy with the treatment, I don’t believe their was any negligence on San Antonio’s part. It was a tricky injury and it was what it was.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 04:56:51 PM by GreenEnvy »
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