Author Topic: Stephen Miller  (Read 6080 times)

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Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #90 on: June 19, 2018, 11:34:20 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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The policy of separating children from their parents is terrible. It is an awful policy, and should be ended. America stands for something better, something more decent.

I think most agree it is terrible but quit pretending that America stands for better.   All it does is show how ignorant you are of our history.   We had genocide of the Indian, Slavery and even more brutal removal operations like Operation Wetback in the 1950s where we used the Army.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback

It is pretty clear that some folks in this thread are pretty ignorant regarding our dark history.  So forgive me if I laugh when you say what America stands for.

So just because we've had such an atrocious track record, historically, doesn't mean that we can't change/aspire to be something much better?

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In these situations, we are best off making sure there are consequences, but that we don't crush people. We can't really win here. The best we can do is to put up appropriate resistance and live with the human limitations.

We could win but I often doubt we have to win to win like in the past.    In the past, we would have went to war with Mexico to make this stop.   That is what America stood for.   

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican%E2%80%93American_War#Impact_of_the_war_in_the_United_States

They would not stand a chance against us.   We are never going to do that, though, nor should we do that.  Reading these threads about what America stands for is very funny though.   How many here were home schooled?   I was not but some here seem to have a very white wash view of History.[/quote]

Given that it should have been "gone" as opposed to "went" in that sentence, I wouldn't exactly go around throwing shade at the perceived, and respective, levels of education that have been attained by the members of this forum, to say the least, but whatever.

Besides, we simply don't have the manpower to occupy Mexico even if we wanted to invade, anyway, although I am hardly advocating for such, and as a result, our forces would just get bogged down in another unwinnable guerrilla war, as if those are actually winnable, anyway, and before long we'd leave with both a country and people, in ruin, as well as having to deal with the loss of still more American service men and women, not to mention the fact that the circumstances in terms of contemporary immigration between America and its southern neighbor aren't even remotely close to the events that led to the Mexican-American War, imo, as we're not even dealing with a Pancho Villa-like situation, here, lol ;D. Like not even close.

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For a long time I was concerned if we didn't have strong borders we could go the way of Rome when they could no longer defend themselves from the barbarians surrounding them. I felt you need to follow the law and give to God what is God's but also give to Rome what is Rome's, and I've lived my whole life trying to serve two masters this way. But it doesn't always work to serve two masters. People don't realize at one point a huge mistake Rome made was to take advantage of their neighbors. The Romans traded the Goths desperately needed food for the requested asylum from other barbarians, and also, in exchange, separated Gothic children from their families. This didn't show strength of the Romans, but rather weakness. It emboldened and angered their enemies and only a couple years later in battle they lost almost two thirds of their force and their emperor was killed. This policy does not serve God and it does not serve Rome. We are setting a trap of cruelty for ourselves.

Rome also let so many barbarians in their armies that they were no longer Roman and lacked Roman discipline.  This had a lot more to do with their fall than trading foods.  Again, lack of knowledge of history seems epidemic here, no offense.[/quote]

Lol, in terms of "borders", the United States essentially won the geopolitical jackpot, although, much like Rome, we are an empire that is certainly in decline, imo, so there's that :-\.

Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #91 on: June 19, 2018, 11:42:25 PM »

Offline eja117

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Rome was an empire entirely of conquest so they took barbarians into their armies for a very very long time. Incorporating non Romans into their army around 362 AD was not much different than what they had done in 50BC, when they had plenty of discipline.

Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #92 on: June 19, 2018, 11:54:37 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Rome was an empire entirely of conquest so they took barbarians into their armies for a very very long time. Incorporating non Romans into their army around 362 AD was not much different than what they had done in 50BC, when they had plenty of discipline.

Those "independent contractors" will get you every time, lol ;) ::) ;D.

Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #93 on: June 20, 2018, 06:03:07 AM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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Iíve never understood why all these other countryís problem magically become our responsibility to solve. The Mexican government should be prosecuted for crimes against its citizens. If you overlayed the US system of capitalism, law enforcement and innovative spirit theyíd be a world power with all the assets they have. Instead itís an abjectly corrupt, crime ridden place desperately lacking in hope  and opportunity. Very sad and shame on the Mexican government.

On our side our political class (left and right) are an embarrassment to the miracle that is the United States. At no time in human history have so many people had so much freedom and opportunity. Our political class just p---es all over it. They donít respect it or protect it. They canít negotiate a trade agreement to save their lives, their policies have us $20 trillion in debt and they couldnít secure a table in a restaurant, let alone a border or a nation. They should all be fired for gross negligence and dereliction of duty. Good job guys - youíre all running around up in Washington patting yourselves on the back - at least when theyíre not throwing political mud at each other like a bunch of four year olds

As for the border? Given todayís environment with Terrorism, MS13 and drug cartels and the rampant crime related to it we should basically hermetically seal the southern border. Who in their right mind would have a party at their house and leave the door open for anyone to enter and then have no idea where in the house all those people were? Itís insanity and the conversation has been so far down the wrong road for so long that everyone thinks the US is the collective ant-Christ for trying to impose some law and order at the border. 

Start with the basics fact that whatís illegal is illegal and work backward from there - itís incredibly
simple.

The issues these people are experiencing at the border are are A) the fault of the Mexican ruling class
, B) the fault of the immigrants choosing to put themselves in these situations as a result of the failing policies of their politicians and C) the utterly useless US political class. The only real victim here is the miracle that is the United States and all the naturally born citizens living here in accordance with our laws.

Not s single person should ever enter this country again unless weíre saying who, how, where, when and why - period. Law and order first - everything else after that.





Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #94 on: June 20, 2018, 06:43:33 AM »

Offline Greenback

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Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #95 on: June 20, 2018, 07:11:14 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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https://encyclopedic.co.uk/nolte-media-admit-goal-is-to-replace-trump-voters-with-illegal-aliens/

The article itself is way too hysterical, but I think thatís a large part of why Democrats are so pro-illegal immigrant: ultimately, those illegal immigrants have legal children, who vote at least 3-to-1 Democrat. Itís one of the reasons that Democrats are becoming more a party of identity politics, and are abandoning the white working class.


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Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #96 on: June 20, 2018, 07:22:27 AM »

Offline gouki88

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https://encyclopedic.co.uk/nolte-media-admit-goal-is-to-replace-trump-voters-with-illegal-aliens/

The article itself is way too hysterical, but I think thatís a large part of why Democrats are so pro-illegal immigrant: ultimately, those illegal immigrants have legal children, who vote at least 3-to-1 Democrat. Itís one of the reasons that Democrats are becoming more a party of identity politics, and are abandoning the white working class.
As Thomas Sowell said, politicians are first and foremost concerned with getting elected and getting re-elected. All other issues fall behind these

Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #97 on: June 20, 2018, 07:26:42 AM »

Offline eja117

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https://encyclopedic.co.uk/nolte-media-admit-goal-is-to-replace-trump-voters-with-illegal-aliens/

The article itself is way too hysterical, but I think thatís a large part of why Democrats are so pro-illegal immigrant: ultimately, those illegal immigrants have legal children, who vote at least 3-to-1 Democrat. Itís one of the reasons that Democrats are becoming more a party of identity politics, and are abandoning the white working class.
I agree. It's voter fraud 18 years in the future

Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #98 on: June 20, 2018, 07:55:48 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Rome was an empire entirely of conquest so they took barbarians into their armies for a very very long time. Incorporating non Romans into their army around 362 AD was not much different than what they had done in 50BC, when they had plenty of discipline.

The difference is the barbarians starting losing whereas the Romans lost quit a few battles prior but they never gave up.  There is a big difference using them as Auxillaries and having primary legions and have the legions filled with them.   Once people quit caring about the cause or not fighting as much for the country they are bound to lose.

The military was their primary apparatus for control.   It also as you know chose leaders and desposed of them.

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The Roman army, long garrisoned along the imperial frontiers, had begun to decay. Many of the frontier posts had become large towns with large civilian contingents within them. Training and discipline declined. By the second century not more than one percent of the Roman army was comprised of native Italians, the rest being drawn from other nationalities of the empire still strongly socialized to Roman values and methods. By the middle of the third century, however, the army had become hollow, and the German tribes broke through in great numbers to settle large tracts of imperial land.
The Roman response was to reorganize the army with militia troops, the limitani, garrison the forts, and hold strong horse-born reserves at key garrisons within the empire that could rush to a point of penetration and stop the enemy advance. Most of the army by this time was comprised of barbarian soldiers in the pay of Rome. As Roman reliance upon these barbarian military forces grew, the organizational structure and values of the legion began to erode until, by the 4th century, the legions were no longer organized along traditional Roman lines. Instead, they reflected barbarian weapons, tactics, values, and were commanded by their own tribal chiefs. The fiction that they were paid allies of Rome continued until the 5th century when renewed waves of barbarian invasions crashed over Europe, effectively putting an end to the Roman military system.

The gradual barbarization of the legions had an enormous impact on Roman military organization. The decline in the administrative and support structure of the legion led to its replacement with a number of barbarian military practices. In effect, the tribal military forces within the empire became a state within a state that was beyond the power of the central Roman state apparatus to control

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/gabrmetz/gabr0014.htm

Polls that I read right now  66% are against separating families.  I could not find a more recent one on the bottom one.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/18/politics/immigration-trump-approval/index.html

But polls also indicate that a majority in both parties favor securing the border.

https://www.rollcall.com/politics/poll-voters-want-border-security-path-citizenship

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Specifically, 61 percent think that current border security is inadequate, and more than half of Americans ó 54 percent ó support a physical barrier along the southern U.S. border.  A stunning 65 percent of Americans support a DACA deal that ends chain migration, eliminates the random visa lottery and secures the border with a wall. Only 35 percent of Americans did not agree.

Nearly 70 percent of Americans oppose the visa lottery which allows immigrants to be picked at random for entry into the country.
 

In fact, nearly 80 percent of Americans believe that immigration should be based on merit and skills, not just family ties.

http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/372152-new-polling-proves-president-trump-is-right-americans-are-dreamers-too

Bottom line, America is against the separating families but it seems the majority favor securing the border.  The seperating families thing will get fixed with it the Dems have the edge but if it is a lot of people will shift back as most favor security.

I just hope we get some common sense immigration reform out of this issue.   It is time, to do it.

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many people had so much freedom and opportunity. Our political class just p---es all over it. They donít respect it or protect it. They canít negotiate a trade agreement to save their lives, their policies have us $20 trillion in debt and they couldnít secure a table in a restaurant, let alone a border or a nation. They should all be fired for gross negligence and dereliction of duty. Good job guys - youíre all running around up in Washington patting yourselves on the back - at least when theyíre not throwing political mud at each other like a bunch of four year olds

I could not agree more and as you can see folks still favor the left and right with the government getting no results.  TP.   Folks are almost brainwashed by their respective parties.   I think the thing I hate most about the political class is an apaling lack of courage to stand for something and then take action.   They are more concerned with staying in power.

Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #99 on: June 20, 2018, 08:31:54 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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Polls that I read right now  66% are against separating families.  I could not find a more recent one on the bottom one.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/18/politics/immigration-trump-approval/index.html

But polls also indicate that a majority in both parties favor securing the border.

https://www.rollcall.com/politics/poll-voters-want-border-security-path-citizenship

Thatís the rub. Iím appalled by the ďcatch and releaseĒ (into the United States) policies. Zero tolerance is exactly how we should be securing our border.

But, going beyond that, Iím honestly not sure how to achieve the most humane way of returning people to their home countries. Is it allowing families to stay together in detention centers? If so, allow that.


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Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #100 on: June 20, 2018, 09:31:13 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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A few links for the morning:

Former ICE director says hundreds or thousands of separated kids will likely never be reunited with their parents.

Lawyers and doctors allowed to tour a "tender care" (small child) facility report rooms full of hysterical, inconsolable toddlers.

Michigan government agency reports being sent children as young as 3 months old.


Just to, once again, avoid saying what's actually on my mind, I'll ask - how does the government keep track of children too young to know their parents' names or their own? Any established system at all? Or are we just kinda winging it?

Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #101 on: June 20, 2018, 09:48:33 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Just to, once again, avoid saying what's actually on my mind, I'll ask -

Brings up the question of how do you even have rational dialogue about this? I can't hear, 'This is a rule of law issue' or 'We take children away from parents all the time who commit crimes', or honestly anything other than, 'Yes, we need to stop doing this to children, now'.

I don't think an action by the united states has left me feeling more angry and ashamed in my lifetime.

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Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #102 on: June 20, 2018, 10:23:27 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Bottom line, America is against the separating families but it seems the majority favor securing the border.  The seperating families thing will get fixed with it the Dems have the edge but if it is a lot of people will shift back as most favor security.

See this is my point.  We all agree.  This is common sense.  We should be discussing the logistics of securing the boarder; fence vs. surveillance, whatever, but instead, everyone is shouting at each other and referencing Hitler and the Romans.

Resolving immigration policy is complicated but not an existential threat to our country.  it is just a messy policy issue.  There has been immigration, legal and otherwise for literally hundreds of years.  Gangs and drug dealers are a problem but will be a problem with or without illegal immigration and all this divisive rhetoric.

The divisiveness that Trump is fostering is an existential threat to our democracy.  His statements are patent lies, every day.  Oh but he is a story teller, just Trump being Trump.  We can not get used to this and accept it as the norm.

Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #103 on: June 20, 2018, 10:32:50 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Thatís the rub. Iím appalled by the ďcatch and releaseĒ (into the United States) policies. Zero tolerance is exactly how we should be securing our border.
Why, because in the 21st century it's impossible to account for people unless you keep them in a pen like animals? Or because aliens coming from Mexico, deportable or otherwise, are "malingerers" until proven otherwise?
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Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #104 on: June 20, 2018, 10:46:42 AM »

Offline celticinorlando

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I just donít see how this is something positive. It is disappointing, disgusting and heartless. The political overtones are all over it.

You want to deport or send illegals back then do it as a family. I mean some kids are being sent as far away as Michigan. That is unacceptable.

These tent cities that separate families cost millions more than just keeping families together. Trump and his goons are using children as bargaining chips to build a wall or to spread his white nationalism.

I love my country but I am ashamed of the people running it and those that support this kind of abuse. I look at my own 3 year old and imagine her in a cage, by herself, screaming for her family. Just makes me nauseous.
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