Author Topic: Stephen Miller  (Read 6124 times)

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Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2018, 08:29:33 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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There is no law whose enforcement requires you to separate children from their parents.

Huh? Pretty much all of them involve jail do. And, if you commit a crime while with your children, expect a call from Child Protective Services.
Entering illegally for a first time offender is a misdemeanor. Will most of us lose our kids for a length of time for a misdemeanor? Will they take them from us while breast feeding, or tell us they're being taken for a bath, or tell us we'll never see them again? For a misdemeanor?

I don't see what would be so difficult about family camps. We could keep Japanese families together during WW2, but a few thousand immigrants at the border and we're suddenly overwhelmed.

Yes, families are separated all the time for misdemeanors.  In Maine, Domestic Violence is a misdemeanor.  Heroin possssion is, in many cases, a misdemeanor. Illegal possession of a fire arm by a drug addict is a misdemeanor. Unlawful sexual touching of an unconscious person is a misdemeanor. Some child p0rnography is a misdemeanor.



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Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2018, 08:36:37 AM »

Offline eja117

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Quote
There is no law whose enforcement requires you to separate children from their parents.

Huh? Pretty much all of them involve jail do. And, if you commit a crime while with your children, expect a call from Child Protective Services.
Entering illegally for a first time offender is a misdemeanor. Will most of us lose our kids for a length of time for a misdemeanor? Will they take them from us while breast feeding, or tell us they're being taken for a bath, or tell us we'll never see them again? For a misdemeanor?

I don't see what would be so difficult about family camps. We could keep Japanese families together during WW2, but a few thousand immigrants at the border and we're suddenly overwhelmed.

Yes, families are separated all the time for misdemeanors.  In Maine, Domestic Violence is a misdemeanor.  Heroin possssion is, in many cases, a misdemeanor. Illegal possession of a fire arm by a drug addict is a misdemeanor. Unlawful sexual touching of an unconscious person is a misdemeanor. Some child p0rnography is a misdemeanor.
So the kids will be taken and put in a detention center for weeks or months? Where they largely don't get to go outside. Those largely strike me as violent misdemeanors.

Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2018, 09:19:31 AM »

Offline td450

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He’s creepy as heck.

The border separation policy is an entirely different debate. It’s emotion versus law enforcement.

It’s actually about denying people with legitimate asylum claims from entering the country at manned border crossings, where they could legally make their asylum claim upon setting a single foot in the country.  This forces them to cross at other non-manned points of entry, whereupon they are charged with an illegal border crossing.  There they are arrested.  That’s entrapment, not law enforcement.

Entrapment? Nobody is forcing these people to illegally enter our country.  They’ve got every right to apply to enter our country.  Instead, they illegally sneak in.  Getting separated from their families is the risk they’re taking by breaking the law.

Several thousands of illegal entrants have been detained in recent months. It can’t continue unabated.

We can handle this any way we want. If we choose to view it the same as certain domestic offenses and separate parents from children, that is a choice, not a necessity.

If we choose, it can continue unabated. It is a crisis only if we define it that way. Illegal immigration causes some significant problems, but stopping illegal immigration causes significant problems too. Maintaining a reasonably humane set of enforcement policies will not destroy our country.

There is a reason that illegal immigration has never been fully dealt with. The only way to stop it is to be something most of us don't want to be. It is a lie to say we can't just live with a humane compromise if we want to. We've had decades of experience which says otherwise.



Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2018, 09:31:47 AM »

Offline celticinorlando

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This is less about immigration as it is about Trump’s promotion of white nationalism. Just look at the comments he made today about Germany practically urging nationalists in that country to overtake current leadership. Comments like this validate these groups around the world as do his actions.

Miller is a a fascist and poster boy for the white supremacy movement in this country.
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Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2018, 09:47:34 AM »

Offline saltlover

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He’s creepy as heck.

The border separation policy is an entirely different debate. It’s emotion versus law enforcement.

It’s actually about denying people with legitimate asylum claims from entering the country at manned border crossings, where they could legally make their asylum claim upon setting a single foot in the country.  This forces them to cross at other non-manned points of entry, whereupon they are charged with an illegal border crossing.  There they are arrested.  That’s entrapment, not law enforcement.

Entrapment? Nobody is forcing these people to illegally enter our country.  They’ve got every right to apply to enter our country.  Instead, they illegally sneak in.  Getting separated from their families is the risk they’re taking by breaking the law.

Several thousands of illegal entrants have been detained in recent months. It can’t continue unabated.

Do you know how the asylum process works?  As in, how you apply for asylum?

The asylum process is being abused. During Obama’s administration, something like only 9% of Mexican asylum claims were granted. The current administration isn’t buying into that charade.

I didn’t ask your opinions about the asylum process, and that’s not your argument.  You said “It’s law enforcement.”  And you argue that they are “illegally entering.”

Again, people are going to border checkpoints to present themselves for asylum, and are being turned away from doing so.  This is not “law enforcement.”  From US Customs and Immigration Services:

“Who is Eligible to Apply for Asylum?”

Quote
You may apply for asylum if you are at a port of entry or in the United States. You may apply for asylum regardless of your immigration status and within one year of your arrival to the United States.
(emphasis added)

https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/asylum/questions-and-answers-asylum-eligibility-and-applications

Denying people asylum at checkpoints is a deviation from what the law requires, past precedent, and the government’s publicly stated policy.  Unable to formally present their asylum claims at a legal checkpoint, they then cross the river (which still allows them to legally request asylum).  But now we’ve forced them into a criminal action, giving us an excuse to arrest them and separate them from their children.

This is not about law enforcement.  This is about testing their legal authorities.  Those are not the same thing.

It’s also barbaric and unnecessary.  And as it’s creating psychological trauma for children, including very young children, it is frankly evil.
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Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2018, 09:50:54 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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The border separation policy is an entirely different debate. It’s emotion versus law enforcement.
There is no law whose enforcement requires you to separate children from their parents. For all practical purposes, it's cruel and unusual punishment.


It's quite literally child abuse as government policy, seemingly for no other reason than political leverage and performative cruelty toward demonized outgroups. Fortunately the base has no lack of lack of empathy, as we see here and elsewhere.

Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2018, 10:29:18 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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This is just an attempt by Trump to divide the country further and create chaos that he then uses to consolidate the base.  Just look at the arguments here.  Some people are getting sucked into trying to defend people abusing asylum rules because they hate the site of families being separated.  Others are defending a policy that separates families because they hate to see asylum abused.

This is just like the kneeling/anthem thing.  Creating a heated, emotional debate when most everyone would otherwise agree.  We should defend our boarder against illegal immigration.  Asylum should be a process that is available.  Asylum seekers should not be forced to give up their children.

This never gets solved with the "republicans want to separate families", "democrats want open boarders" kinds of narratives.  Trump is at fault here.  Carrying out the Russian plan to foster dissent.

Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2018, 10:51:09 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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We can handle this any way we want. If we choose to view it the same as certain domestic offenses and separate parents from children, that is a choice, not a necessity.
Of course we can. I'll just leave a little something here that someone else came up with:

"When you see caged children and your first question is, 'But did they come here illegally' we don't have a difference in political opinion. We have a difference in morality".
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Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2018, 10:57:03 AM »

Offline mqtcelticsfan

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There is no law whose enforcement requires you to separate children from their parents.

Huh? Pretty much all of them involve jail do. And, if you commit a crime while with your children, expect a call from Child Protective Services.
Entering illegally for a first time offender is a misdemeanor. Will most of us lose our kids for a length of time for a misdemeanor? Will they take them from us while breast feeding, or tell us they're being taken for a bath, or tell us we'll never see them again? For a misdemeanor?

I don't see what would be so difficult about family camps. We could keep Japanese families together during WW2, but a few thousand immigrants at the border and we're suddenly overwhelmed.

Yes, families are separated all the time for misdemeanors.  In Maine, Domestic Violence is a misdemeanor.  Heroin possssion is, in many cases, a misdemeanor. Illegal possession of a fire arm by a drug addict is a misdemeanor. Unlawful sexual touching of an unconscious person is a misdemeanor. Some child p0rnography is a misdemeanor.

Surely you see the difference between these crimes and illegal border crossing. At least in this case, we aren’t arguing for open borders or granting asylum to everybody. We’re just asking for a modicum of compassion for these children and their parents as they commit a non-violent misdemeanor to escape unimaginable struggles.

Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2018, 10:59:15 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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There is no law whose enforcement requires you to separate children from their parents.

Huh? Pretty much all of them involve jail do. And, if you commit a crime while with your children, expect a call from Child Protective Services.
Entering illegally for a first time offender is a misdemeanor. Will most of us lose our kids for a length of time for a misdemeanor? Will they take them from us while breast feeding, or tell us they're being taken for a bath, or tell us we'll never see them again? For a misdemeanor?

I don't see what would be so difficult about family camps. We could keep Japanese families together during WW2, but a few thousand immigrants at the border and we're suddenly overwhelmed.

Yes, families are separated all the time for misdemeanors.  In Maine, Domestic Violence is a misdemeanor.  Heroin possssion is, in many cases, a misdemeanor. Illegal possession of a fire arm by a drug addict is a misdemeanor. Unlawful sexual touching of an unconscious person is a misdemeanor. Some child p0rnography is a misdemeanor.
So the kids will be taken and put in a detention center for weeks or months? Where they largely don't get to go outside. Those largely strike me as violent misdemeanors.

Oftentimes they’re put into foster care, which in many cases is worse.

Children suffer when parents break the law. It sucks. The blame falls on the parents, though.


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Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2018, 11:01:39 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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There is no law whose enforcement requires you to separate children from their parents.

Huh? Pretty much all of them involve jail do. And, if you commit a crime while with your children, expect a call from Child Protective Services.
Entering illegally for a first time offender is a misdemeanor. Will most of us lose our kids for a length of time for a misdemeanor? Will they take them from us while breast feeding, or tell us they're being taken for a bath, or tell us we'll never see them again? For a misdemeanor?

I don't see what would be so difficult about family camps. We could keep Japanese families together during WW2, but a few thousand immigrants at the border and we're suddenly overwhelmed.

Yes, families are separated all the time for misdemeanors.  In Maine, Domestic Violence is a misdemeanor.  Heroin possssion is, in many cases, a misdemeanor. Illegal possession of a fire arm by a drug addict is a misdemeanor. Unlawful sexual touching of an unconscious person is a misdemeanor. Some child p0rnography is a misdemeanor.

Surely you see the difference between these crimes and illegal border crossing. At least in this case, we aren’t arguing for open borders or granting asylum to everybody. We’re just asking for a modicum of compassion for these children and their parents as they commit a non-violent misdemeanor to escape unimaginable struggles.

What’s your preferred solution? Who pays for that?


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Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2018, 11:05:26 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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There is no law whose enforcement requires you to separate children from their parents.

Huh? Pretty much all of them involve jail do. And, if you commit a crime while with your children, expect a call from Child Protective Services.
We're talking about illegal border crossing. Can you please specify the statute that requires law enforcement to put children in separate detention facilities?
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Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2018, 11:12:53 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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There is no law whose enforcement requires you to separate children from their parents.

Huh? Pretty much all of them involve jail do. And, if you commit a crime while with your children, expect a call from Child Protective Services.
We're talking about illegal border crossing. Can you please specify the statute that requires law enforcement to put children in separate detention facilities?

It is completely in the control of the parents to avoid separation:

Quote
The Trump administration isn’t changing the rules that pertain to separating an adult from the child. Those remain the same. Separation happens only if officials find that the adult is falsely claiming to be the child’s parent, or is a threat to the child, or is put into criminal proceedings.

It’s the last that is operative here. The past practice had been to give a free pass to an adult who is part of a family unit. The new Trump policy is to prosecute all adults. The idea is to send a signal that we are serious about our laws and to create a deterrent against re-entry. (Illegal entry is a misdemeanor, illegal re-entry a felony.)


When a migrant is prosecuted for illegal entry, he or she is taken into custody by the U.S. Marshals. In no circumstance anywhere in the U.S. do the marshals care for the children of people they take into custody. The child is taken into the custody of HHS, who cares for them at temporary shelters.

The criminal proceedings are exceptionally short, assuming there is no aggravating factor such as a prior illegal entity or another crime. The migrants generally plead guilty, and they are then sentenced to time served, typically all in the same day, although practices vary along the border. After this, they are returned to the custody of ICE.

If the adult then wants to go home, in keeping with the expedited order of removal that is issued as a matter of course, it’s relatively simple. The adult should be reunited quickly with his or her child, and the family returned home as a unit. In this scenario, there’s only a very brief separation.


To answer your question,

Quote
Where it becomes much more of an issue is if the adult files an asylum claim. In that scenario, the adults are almost certainly going to be detained longer than the government is allowed to hold their children.

That’s because of something called the Flores Consent Decree from 1997. It says that unaccompanied children can be held only 20 days. A ruling by the Ninth Circuit extended this 20-day limit to children who come as part of family units. So even if we want to hold a family unit together, we are forbidden from doing so.

Since asylum takes longer than 20 days, children must be legally separated from their children.


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Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2018, 11:18:36 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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This is less about immigration as it is about Trump’s promotion of white nationalism. Just look at the comments he made today about Germany practically urging nationalists in that country to overtake current leadership. Comments like this validate these groups around the world as do his actions.

And lying about immigration increasing the German crime rate, which is the lowest since 1992, while spraying dogwhistles about immigrants "violently changing culture". Also now linking the children we're taking with "the worst criminals on Earth" because why not.  The President of the United States is about two notches away from just tweeting the 14 words. What a time.

Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2018, 11:33:08 AM »

Offline mqtcelticsfan

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There is no law whose enforcement requires you to separate children from their parents.

Huh? Pretty much all of them involve jail do. And, if you commit a crime while with your children, expect a call from Child Protective Services.
Entering illegally for a first time offender is a misdemeanor. Will most of us lose our kids for a length of time for a misdemeanor? Will they take them from us while breast feeding, or tell us they're being taken for a bath, or tell us we'll never see them again? For a misdemeanor?

I don't see what would be so difficult about family camps. We could keep Japanese families together during WW2, but a few thousand immigrants at the border and we're suddenly overwhelmed.

Yes, families are separated all the time for misdemeanors.  In Maine, Domestic Violence is a misdemeanor.  Heroin possssion is, in many cases, a misdemeanor. Illegal possession of a fire arm by a drug addict is a misdemeanor. Unlawful sexual touching of an unconscious person is a misdemeanor. Some child p0rnography is a misdemeanor.

Surely you see the difference between these crimes and illegal border crossing. At least in this case, we aren’t arguing for open borders or granting asylum to everybody. We’re just asking for a modicum of compassion for these children and their parents as they commit a non-violent misdemeanor to escape unimaginable struggles.

What’s your preferred solution? Who pays for that?

Enact a new set of laws governing this scenario wherein families can be held together. We already are housing the entire family, just do so together.

In the interim, end the practice of separating, even if that means not prosecuting.