Author Topic: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him  (Read 7208 times)

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Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #165 on: June 17, 2018, 07:20:21 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

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We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You really think the Spurs, after dealing with all they did with Leonard this season, would take back Fultz as a primary piece? The same Fultz that apparently had to change his entire shooting form and was injured virtually the entire season. Wow lol. Just wow. Fultz might be an elite prospect but RIGHT NOW, his trade value is not that high. He can be a piece in a trade but if he's the primary piece, then good luck. PHI would certainly have to add Saric to that and probably another pick.
Philly can’t give up a superstar prospect like Fultz without getting assurance kawhi will re-sign, but yeah that seems to be the offer to beat.

Wow..


reminds me of when the majority of this forum said they wouldn’t give up a 2nd rounder for Embiid. This isn’t really a place for taking the long view.

That just isn't true... And even if people said that, it was probably in jest... Even if Embiid never plays up to his potential, chances are he will outplay any 2nd rounder generally.

Stop making up lies.

Like dude, I don't get what your angle or point is... Why are you so infatuated with the 76ers?

We just beat them 4-1 with Hayward and Kyrie out... Why do you seriously think they are that much of a threat unless they sign LeBron, or acquire PG-13/Kawhi? And none of those options are a foregone conclusion.
ill chalk it up to “jest” when those same fans act like the youngest player in nba history to achieve a triple double isn’t adequate return for Kawhi Leonard.  That’s Philly’s trade to turn down.

Forget that, I want to see these "jest" comments for myself. LarBrd, one thing is for you to overhype the Sixers, but now you're stooping really low by lying. Besides, not only are you lying, but you're basically ridiculing the collective basketball IQ of this forum.

So PLEASE either find post the link to the thread or just admit you made it up.
i don’t believe in the whole “dig up old comments to humiliate individuals”... that’s the kind of sick stuff the leftovers of this forum participate in.  It’s not important. You called me a sixer fan for relaying that several fans around the league think brown has a ceiling of a fringe star.  Calling me a sixer fan had absolutely nothing to do with what I was taking about.  That’s just the type of instigatey nonsense that caused this forum to lose a gem like LarBrd33 in the first place.  Traditionally, you only feel alive when you are calling me a Sixer fan. I played along and joked his ceiling was Dario Saric.  That should be enough for you Eddie.   You’re welcome.

Now, if you have something of value to add to the discussion of whether it makes sense to gamble on kawhi at the expense or someone who has a realistic ceiling of j-rich/Sczerbiak, we can get back on topic.

Serious questions I want to ask you LarBrd33.

Who do you think has more value, Fultz or Jaylen Brown? Who do you think will become the better player, and why do you think the Spurs would even be interested in Fultz anyways?
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Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #166 on: June 17, 2018, 07:22:07 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You really think the Spurs, after dealing with all they did with Leonard this season, would take back Fultz as a primary piece? The same Fultz that apparently had to change his entire shooting form and was injured virtually the entire season. Wow lol. Just wow. Fultz might be an elite prospect but RIGHT NOW, his trade value is not that high. He can be a piece in a trade but if he's the primary piece, then good luck. PHI would certainly have to add Saric to that and probably another pick.
Philly can’t give up a superstar prospect like Fultz without getting assurance kawhi will re-sign, but yeah that seems to be the offer to beat.

Wow..


reminds me of when the majority of this forum said they wouldn’t give up a 2nd rounder for Embiid. This isn’t really a place for taking the long view.

That just isn't true... And even if people said that, it was probably in jest... Even if Embiid never plays up to his potential, chances are he will outplay any 2nd rounder generally.

Stop making up lies.

Like dude, I don't get what your angle or point is... Why are you so infatuated with the 76ers?

We just beat them 4-1 with Hayward and Kyrie out... Why do you seriously think they are that much of a threat unless they sign LeBron, or acquire PG-13/Kawhi? And none of those options are a foregone conclusion.
ill chalk it up to “jest” when those same fans act like the youngest player in nba history to achieve a triple double isn’t adequate return for Kawhi Leonard.  That’s Philly’s trade to turn down.

Forget that, I want to see these "jest" comments for myself. LarBrd, one thing is for you to overhype the Sixers, but now you're stooping really low by lying. Besides, not only are you lying, but you're basically ridiculing the collective basketball IQ of this forum.

So PLEASE either find post the link to the thread or just admit you made it up.
i don’t believe in the whole “dig up old comments to humiliate individuals”... that’s the kind of sick stuff the leftovers of this forum participate in.  It’s not important.

You don't see the hypocrisy here? You actually are making fun of the members of this forum by concocting some story that the masses wouldn't trade a 2nd rd pick for Embiid, yet you can't post the link because it's a blatant lie. That's pretty sad, man.

The topic is a good one, but you went off the rails by fabricating things. You don't have to do that in order to try to make a point.o

Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #167 on: June 17, 2018, 07:25:18 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You really think the Spurs, after dealing with all they did with Leonard this season, would take back Fultz as a primary piece? The same Fultz that apparently had to change his entire shooting form and was injured virtually the entire season. Wow lol. Just wow. Fultz might be an elite prospect but RIGHT NOW, his trade value is not that high. He can be a piece in a trade but if he's the primary piece, then good luck. PHI would certainly have to add Saric to that and probably another pick.
Philly can’t give up a superstar prospect like Fultz without getting assurance kawhi will re-sign, but yeah that seems to be the offer to beat.

Wow..


reminds me of when the majority of this forum said they wouldn’t give up a 2nd rounder for Embiid. This isn’t really a place for taking the long view.

That just isn't true... And even if people said that, it was probably in jest... Even if Embiid never plays up to his potential, chances are he will outplay any 2nd rounder generally.

Stop making up lies.

Like dude, I don't get what your angle or point is... Why are you so infatuated with the 76ers?

We just beat them 4-1 with Hayward and Kyrie out... Why do you seriously think they are that much of a threat unless they sign LeBron, or acquire PG-13/Kawhi? And none of those options are a foregone conclusion.
ill chalk it up to “jest” when those same fans act like the youngest player in nba history to achieve a triple double isn’t adequate return for Kawhi Leonard.  That’s Philly’s trade to turn down.

Forget that, I want to see these "jest" comments for myself. LarBrd, one thing is for you to overhype the Sixers, but now you're stooping really low by lying. Besides, not only are you lying, but you're basically ridiculing the collective basketball IQ of this forum.

So PLEASE either find post the link to the thread or just admit you made it up.
i don’t believe in the whole “dig up old comments to humiliate individuals”... that’s the kind of sick stuff the leftovers of this forum participate in.  It’s not important. You called me a sixer fan for relaying that several fans around the league think brown has a ceiling of a fringe star.  Calling me a sixer fan had absolutely nothing to do with what I was taking about.  That’s just the type of instigatey nonsense that caused this forum to lose a gem like LarBrd33 in the first place.  Traditionally, you only feel alive when you are calling me a Sixer fan. I played along and joked his ceiling was Dario Saric.  That should be enough for you Eddie.   You’re welcome.

Now, if you have something of value to add to the discussion of whether it makes sense to gamble on kawhi at the expense or someone who has a realistic ceiling of j-rich/Sczerbiak, we can get back on topic.

Serious questions I want to ask you LarBrd33.

Who do you think has more value, Fultz or Jaylen Brown? Who do you think will become the better player, and why do you think the Spurs would even be interested in Fultz anyways?
lets just forget about Fultz. I don’t think people here have the capacity to understand it and it’s not really the topic of this thread.  What we are talking about here is whether Jaylen is “the next kawhi”.  I’d love for that to happen, but it’s not realistic.  More realistically he peaks as a fringe star. So the question becomes, if kawhi is healthy how much risk are you willing to take. Personally I wouldn’t give up Jaylen, even if his ceiling is only somewhere around Corey maggette, unless we know for certain kawhi is healthy and willing to stay long term. 

Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #168 on: June 17, 2018, 07:30:12 PM »

Online bellerephon

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I put Brown's potential peak higher than that, reaching Leonard's peak of an elite player is probably too much to hope for, but I think he has potential to be more than a fringe star. He needs to get better in a few key areas, and he very well may not get there, but it is not crazy to think he could become more than a fringe star.

Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #169 on: June 17, 2018, 07:33:52 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I put Brown's potential peak higher than that, reaching Leonard's peak of an elite player is probably too much to hope for, but I think he has potential to be more than a fringe star. He needs to get better in a few key areas, and he very well may not get there, but it is not crazy to think he could become more than a fringe star.
personally, I agree with you.  I’ve been saying since we drafted him that he could end up jimmy butler with enough development.  But even that is far from a guarantee.

Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #170 on: June 17, 2018, 07:36:37 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak. 

Reddit opinions can differ wildly.  Most recently I’ve seen Jaylen compared to Shane Battier.

What does your food truck guy say on the matter? ;) ;D

Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #171 on: June 17, 2018, 07:45:25 PM »

Online gouki88

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We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You really think the Spurs, after dealing with all they did with Leonard this season, would take back Fultz as a primary piece? The same Fultz that apparently had to change his entire shooting form and was injured virtually the entire season. Wow lol. Just wow. Fultz might be an elite prospect but RIGHT NOW, his trade value is not that high. He can be a piece in a trade but if he's the primary piece, then good luck. PHI would certainly have to add Saric to that and probably another pick.
Philly can’t give up a superstar prospect like Fultz without getting assurance kawhi will re-sign, but yeah that seems to be the offer to beat.

Wow..


reminds me of when the majority of this forum said they wouldn’t give up a 2nd rounder for Embiid. This isn’t really a place for taking the long view.

That just isn't true... And even if people said that, it was probably in jest... Even if Embiid never plays up to his potential, chances are he will outplay any 2nd rounder generally.

Stop making up lies.

Like dude, I don't get what your angle or point is... Why are you so infatuated with the 76ers?

We just beat them 4-1 with Hayward and Kyrie out... Why do you seriously think they are that much of a threat unless they sign LeBron, or acquire PG-13/Kawhi? And none of those options are a foregone conclusion.
ill chalk it up to “jest” when those same fans act like the youngest player in nba history to achieve a triple double isn’t adequate return for Kawhi Leonard.  That’s Philly’s trade to turn down.

Forget that, I want to see these "jest" comments for myself. LarBrd, one thing is for you to overhype the Sixers, but now you're stooping really low by lying. Besides, not only are you lying, but you're basically ridiculing the collective basketball IQ of this forum.

So PLEASE either find post the link to the thread or just admit you made it up.
i don’t believe in the whole “dig up old comments to humiliate individuals”... that’s the kind of sick stuff the leftovers of this forum participate in. .
That's very convenient

Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #172 on: June 17, 2018, 09:18:20 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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I put Brown's potential peak higher than that, reaching Leonard's peak of an elite player is probably too much to hope for, but I think he has potential to be more than a fringe star. He needs to get better in a few key areas, and he very well may not get there, but it is not crazy to think he could become more than a fringe star.
personally, I agree with you.  I’ve been saying since we drafted him that he could end up jimmy butler with enough development.  But even that is far from a guarantee.

See thats what I dont get, if you thought that after drafting him how is it after seeing him by all accounts be ahead of schedule now think that his most likely outcome is josh Richardson. See most people have gone the other direction. Most thought coming out he was Richardson but have up grades their projections based off his performance thus far.

That said I think we arent that far off. I think most people believe he could be a Jimmy Butler/ Paul George pkayer, the difference is how likely you think that outcome is. I would say its like 50/50 he gets there, you seem to think its much lower. To each his own I guess.

Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #173 on: June 17, 2018, 09:23:53 PM »

Offline gpap

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Yes we do. And his name is Gordon Hayward. He's just as good, if not better.

Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #174 on: June 17, 2018, 10:28:34 PM »

Offline blink

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We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You really think the Spurs, after dealing with all they did with Leonard this season, would take back Fultz as a primary piece? The same Fultz that apparently had to change his entire shooting form and was injured virtually the entire season. Wow lol. Just wow. Fultz might be an elite prospect but RIGHT NOW, his trade value is not that high. He can be a piece in a trade but if he's the primary piece, then good luck. PHI would certainly have to add Saric to that and probably another pick.
Philly can’t give up a superstar prospect like Fultz without getting assurance kawhi will re-sign, but yeah that seems to be the offer to beat.

Wow..



Yeah that one made me want to jab my eyes out too.  I guess Larbrd33 didn't watch the playoffs.  He didn't see Jaylen drop 30 in some playoff games, average 18ppg in the playoffs after coming back from a hamstring injury IN THE PLAYOFFS. 

I value the playoff stats way more than the regular season stats.  How many of those guys that larbrd33 is saying are Jaylen's ceiling did ANYTHING remotely like that in their second year in the playoffs?  I have no idea, but I doubt any of them did.  Tatum and Brown both almost willed us to the finals themselves.  Both are keepers unless we can somehow swing a trade for the brow. 


Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #175 on: June 18, 2018, 01:25:21 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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I put Brown's potential peak higher than that, reaching Leonard's peak of an elite player is probably too much to hope for, but I think he has potential to be more than a fringe star. He needs to get better in a few key areas, and he very well may not get there, but it is not crazy to think he could become more than a fringe star.
personally, I agree with you.  I’ve been saying since we drafted him that he could end up jimmy butler with enough development.  But even that is far from a guarantee.

See thats what I dont get, if you thought that after drafting him how is it after seeing him by all accounts be ahead of schedule now think that his most likely outcome is josh Richardson. See most people have gone the other direction. Most thought coming out he was Richardson but have up grades their projections based off his performance thus far.

That said I think we arent that far off. I think most people believe he could be a Jimmy Butler/ Paul George pkayer, the difference is how likely you think that outcome is. I would say its like 50/50 he gets there, you seem to think its much lower. To each his own I guess.

As much as I love Josh Richardson, we're talking about Jason Richardson, here, lol ;D.

Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #176 on: June 18, 2018, 10:49:23 AM »

Offline celticsclay

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We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You really think the Spurs, after dealing with all they did with Leonard this season, would take back Fultz as a primary piece? The same Fultz that apparently had to change his entire shooting form and was injured virtually the entire season. Wow lol. Just wow. Fultz might be an elite prospect but RIGHT NOW, his trade value is not that high. He can be a piece in a trade but if he's the primary piece, then good luck. PHI would certainly have to add Saric to that and probably another pick.
Philly can’t give up a superstar prospect like Fultz without getting assurance kawhi will re-sign, but yeah that seems to be the offer to beat.

Do you think fultz is the number 2 prospect in league right now? Maybe after the draft he is 3?

Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #177 on: June 19, 2018, 07:52:16 AM »

Offline celticsclay

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To keep him off of other teams.  It is all well and good to not want to give up the farm for Leonard, but Boston can kiss any shot at winning the title over the next 3-5 years if Leonard ends up in LA with James or on the Sixers (not to mention the Warriors are still out there).
If only Leonard ends up on Philly, they're still not better than Boston. Even if he and James end up in L.A., that's not a team I'd consider unbeatable unless they get George too.
Philly is absolutely better than Boston if Leonard joins them if the trade is something like Covington, Fultz, and 10.  They could even add Saric and 26 and they are still likely better, and in that scenario they still have cap room for another max player or can just re-sign all of their free agents i.e. Redick, Ilyasova, Belinelli, and Johnson.

This is a pretty darn good team

PG - Simmons, McConnell, Bayless
SG - Redick, Belinelli, Korkmaz
SF - Leonard, Anderson, Luwauw-Cabarrot
PF - Ilyasova, Johnson
C - Embiid, Holmes

That team is absolutely stacked

Calling that team absolutely stacked is a bit hilarious. It would be a team starting two below average starters (reddick should not be starting at 34 years old and illasova is not even close to a starter level while rumored to be 35). Worse, McConnell may be the only one of that group (and Johnson in very short minutes) that is an average bench player. I mean Holmes, tlc, bellinelli and Anderson as primary bench options? Bleh. We could all do cartwheels if this happened and liberty ballers would be in a collective meltdown.

Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #178 on: June 19, 2018, 09:21:51 AM »

Offline boscel33

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I just don't see why people are so hopeful of landing him. I feel like we have a younger version of him in the making in Jaylen Brown on a cost controlled contract and someone who is healthy. Obviously, you can argue KL is better but is he 4-6x better? And isn';t JB on the same career trajectory as KL? Will he ever reach the height of KL? No one can tell. But I'm willing to bet on it. He has athleticism through the roof and his work ethic and drive to be the best matches his athleticism level.

I just don't see why people are so hell bent on getting KL. Look close at the stats:

Kawhi Leonard
Age 20: 7.9ppg/5.1rpg in 24mpg
Age 21: 11.9ppg/6.0rpg in 31mpg
Age 22: 12.8ppg/6.2rpg in 29mpg
Age 23: 16.5ppg/7.2rpg in 32mpg
Age 24: 21.2ppg/ 6.8rpg in 33mpg
Age 25: 25.5ppg/5.8rpg in 33mpg

Jaylen Brown
Age 20: 6.6ppg/3rpg in 17mpg
Age 21: 14.5ppg/5rpg in 31mpg

It's arguable, JB has developed even quicker than KL as he is already nearly matching Season 4 output in his 2nd season.

ABSOLUTELY AGREE!

Posted the same thing and put a link to a player comparison between the two.
While the early bird catches the worm, the second mouse gets the cheese!

Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #179 on: June 19, 2018, 10:26:13 AM »

Offline CelticsJG

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I just don't see why people are so hopeful of landing him. I feel like we have a younger version of him in the making in Jaylen Brown on a cost controlled contract and someone who is healthy. Obviously, you can argue KL is better but is he 4-6x better? And isn';t JB on the same career trajectory as KL? Will he ever reach the height of KL? No one can tell. But I'm willing to bet on it. He has athleticism through the roof and his work ethic and drive to be the best matches his athleticism level.

I just don't see why people are so hell bent on getting KL. Look close at the stats:

Kawhi Leonard
Age 20: 7.9ppg/5.1rpg in 24mpg
Age 21: 11.9ppg/6.0rpg in 31mpg
Age 22: 12.8ppg/6.2rpg in 29mpg
Age 23: 16.5ppg/7.2rpg in 32mpg
Age 24: 21.2ppg/ 6.8rpg in 33mpg
Age 25: 25.5ppg/5.8rpg in 33mpg

Jaylen Brown
Age 20: 6.6ppg/3rpg in 17mpg
Age 21: 14.5ppg/5rpg in 31mpg

It's arguable, JB has developed even quicker than KL as he is already nearly matching Season 4 output in his 2nd season.

Please those are just counting stats. Look at Kawhi advance stats of the same year. Blows Jaylen out of the water.