Author Topic: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him  (Read 5681 times)

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Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #135 on: June 17, 2018, 04:44:27 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

Thatís wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably Andrť Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesnít play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison






Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #136 on: June 17, 2018, 04:54:18 PM »

Offline ETNCeltics

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Hard to believe so many would throw away Brown for one year of a guy who has clearly stated he wants to go to LA. Beyond foolish.

Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #137 on: June 17, 2018, 04:58:15 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

Thatís wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably Andrť Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesnít play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think thereís a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #138 on: June 17, 2018, 05:05:15 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Hard to believe so many would throw away Brown for one year of a guy who has clearly stated he wants to go to LA. Beyond foolish.

This is why I mostly doubt Danny will sign off on the deal.  Where Irving had a few years ,   I think he ll want some commitment from Kawhi .

Which Im highly doubtful will happen.   The resultI don't I see Spurs owners rebuilding Lakers  and being stomped by them for years to come..  They take the best offer NOT associated with Lakers .   

incredibly unless Lakers are allowed to over pay ....which they would in a heart beat ,  I doubtful Kawhi brings the Kings ransome  people here think he will ......only he Lakers , New York will  ober pay.

Also by NOT trad g him to Lakers , this kinda  screws with Lebrons mind a bit , and may e even Georges .

Spurs should send him East to Knicks for all they can get .

Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #139 on: June 17, 2018, 05:07:00 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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Hard to believe so many would throw away Brown for one year of a guy who has clearly stated he wants to go to LA. Beyond foolish.

This is why I mostly doubt Danny will sign off on the deal.  Where Irving had a few years ,   I think he ll want some commitment from Kawhi .

Which Im highly doubtful will happen.   The result is NO I see Spurs owners rebuilding Lakers .  They take the best offer NOT associated with Lakers .   

incredibly unless Lakers are allowed to over pay ....which they would in a heart beat ,  I doubtful Kawhi brings the Kings ransome he wants.

Also by NOT trad g him to Lakers , this kinda  screws with Lebrons mind a bit , and may e even Georges .

Spurs should send him East to Knicks for all they can get .

How about Milwaukee for Middleton + Parker + 2018 Bucks First Rounder?

Or instead of Parker, put Maker/Brogdon in.

Makes sense for all sides IMHO. According to Woj, he doesn't want to be the alpha of a team that has to deal with a ton of pressure all around (media, in-game, etc.)

He could get that with MIL, and a duo of Leonard/Giannis is a problem for a lot of folks (including the C's though the C's are deeper).

Even if he's a rental, MIL might be a bit desperate to add legitimate star-power to their team since they are kind of just stuck with what they have now, and it can keep Giannis happy going forward.
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Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #140 on: June 17, 2018, 05:11:37 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Hard to believe so many would throw away Brown for one year of a guy who has clearly stated he wants to go to LA. Beyond foolish.

This is why I mostly doubt Danny will sign off on the deal.  Where Irving had a few years ,   I think he ll want some commitment from Kawhi .

Which Im highly doubtful will happen.   The result is NO I see Spurs owners rebuilding Lakers .  They take the best offer NOT associated with Lakers .   

incredibly unless Lakers are allowed to over pay ....which they would in a heart beat ,  I doubtful Kawhi brings the Kings ransome he wants.

Also by NOT trad g him to Lakers , this kinda  screws with Lebrons mind a bit , and may e even Georges .

Spurs should send him East to Knicks for all they can get .

How about Milwaukee for Middleton + Parker + 2018 Bucks First Rounder?

Or instead of Parker, put Maker/Brogdon in.

Makes sense for all sides IMHO.


Thats fine .....ANYWaY t keep him off the SAME team as Lebron .  Lebron wants and can build his own version f GS at Lakers ......Lakers have the money and will let him have his way 100 % .   

Lebron will recruit the best stars he can for his new Lakers Bron Club .


Kawhi going anywhere and PG staying in OKC ....would be a huge blow to James and Lakers fans

For me basically at this point unless Houston gets James ,  James is a Laker .

Houston will be dang lucky to keep CP3 off a James led Lakers club

Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #141 on: June 17, 2018, 05:15:53 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

Thatís wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably Andrť Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesnít play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think thereís a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 05:36:14 PM by Eddie20 »

Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #142 on: June 17, 2018, 06:04:54 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

Thatís wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably Andrť Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesnít play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think thereís a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
im just relaying what others have said Jaylenís ceiling is.  Personally I think more realistically his ceiling is poor manís Dario Saric.

JK

The point is whether you see his ceiling as battier, j-rich, rudy gay, Wally or corey maggette (another name I commonly seen thrown around), thereís been countless quality players like jaylen who peaked out as fringe stars.  All those guys averaged 20+ points in their peak and generally fell short of making allstar teams. Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy. Heís shown progress but letís not get ahead of ourselves in pretending a guy who averaged 14 points at age 21 is a guaranteed mvp candidate.  Usually superstars are already performing as superstar at that age.  Heís a quality starter right now and thatís it.

Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #143 on: June 17, 2018, 06:06:31 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

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We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

Thatís wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably Andrť Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesnít play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think thereís a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
im just relaying what others have said Jaylenís ceiling is.  Personally I think more realistically his ceiling is poor manís Dario Saric.

Dude, that's bad. Even for you... Come on...

Unbelievable.

EDIT: LaBrd33 with the quick jk edit.

There is some comprehensive evidence that Jaylen can become Kawhi Leonard in that he's a solid defender, and shoots the 3 ball well extremely well. He's also I think more athletically explosive.

Minus the enormous wingspan, and stout defense+gigantic shaq-like hands, Jaylen and Kawhi both share similar question marks coming into the NBA draft.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 06:12:12 PM by Monkhouse »
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Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #144 on: June 17, 2018, 06:15:14 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

Thatís wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably Andrť Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesnít play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think thereís a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
im just relaying what others have said Jaylenís ceiling is.  Personally I think more realistically his ceiling is poor manís Dario Saric.

Dude, that's bad. Even for you... Come on...

Unbelievable.
my bad.  My stupid phone autocorrected ďDario SaricĒ as ďDario SaricĒ.

[dang it], it did it again.  Why the hell cant I type Timothe Luwawu-Cabarrot on this thing?

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Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #145 on: June 17, 2018, 06:25:32 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

Thatís wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably Andrť Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesnít play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think thereís a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?

Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #146 on: June 17, 2018, 06:32:11 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

Thatís wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably Andrť Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesnít play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think thereís a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

That would make Dario Saric their 5th option. Wow!

Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #147 on: June 17, 2018, 06:38:25 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

Thatís wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably Andrť Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesnít play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think thereís a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You really think the Spurs, after dealing with all they did with Leonard this season, would take back Fultz as a primary piece? The same Fultz that apparently had to change his entire shooting form and was injured virtually the entire season. Wow lol. Just wow. Fultz might be an elite prospect but RIGHT NOW, his trade value is not that high. He can be a piece in a trade but if he's the primary piece, then good luck. PHI would certainly have to add Saric to that and probably another pick.
2018 Mock Trade Deadline (New York Knicks)

Roster: Porzingis, Kanter, Hardaway Jr, Julius Randle, Schroder, Beasley, Alex Abrines, Jarrett Jack, Frank Ntilikina, Lance Thomas, Kyle Singler, Josh Huestis, Ron Baker, Trey Burke, Luke Kornet, Isaiah Hicks

Future Draft Picks: https://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/Knick

Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #148 on: June 17, 2018, 06:39:42 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

Thatís wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably Andrť Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesnít play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think thereís a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
im just relaying what others have said Jaylenís ceiling is.  Personally I think more realistically his ceiling is poor manís Dario Saric.

JK

The point is whether you see his ceiling as battier, j-rich, rudy gay, Wally or corey maggette (another name I commonly seen thrown around), thereís been countless quality players like jaylen who peaked out as fringe stars.  All those guys averaged 20+ points in their peak and generally fell short of making allstar teams. Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy. Heís shown progress but letís not get ahead of ourselves in pretending a guy who averaged 14 points at age 21 is a guaranteed mvp candidate.  Usually superstars are already performing as superstar at that age.  Heís a quality starter right now and thatís it.

The thing is man those guys arent his ceiling, they are the floor. Guys who have a similar season to Jaylen at a similar age very rarely end up as anything less than the "Fringe Star" level you describe. Maggete at 21 average 10 points a game. Richardson had a similar season on a 21 win team (that tends to inflate scoring). Szerbiak was 23 when he average 14 points a game. Even Jeff Green had the bad luck to literally require heart surgery. Otto porter didnt average 14 till this last year. Harrison barnes took till his 5th age 24 season to hit 19. So ya, Jaylen season was arguably more impressive or at a younger age than any of those guys, that would tend to indicate hes gonna be AT LEAST that good. Thats typically how the age/ improvement curve works. Now I agree he likely wont reach Kawhi levels but
history would seem to indicate thats his absolute ceilinbg while Rudy Gay (or Richardson, ie that level) is the floor. Again, he compares favorably with Hayward, George at his age. So I dont think solid all star fringe all nba is an unreasonable middle ish outcome.

Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
« Reply #149 on: June 17, 2018, 06:42:19 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

Thatís wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably Andrť Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesnít play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think thereís a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You really think the Spurs, after dealing with all they did with Leonard this season, would take back Fultz as a primary piece? The same Fultz that apparently had to change his entire shooting form and was injured virtually the entire season. Wow lol. Just wow. Fultz might be an elite prospect but RIGHT NOW, his trade value is not that high. He can be a piece in a trade but if he's the primary piece, then good luck. PHI would certainly have to add Saric to that and probably another pick.
Philly canít give up a superstar prospect like Fultz without getting assurance kawhi will re-sign, but yeah that seems to be the offer to beat.