Author Topic: Mike Zarren rare political tweet about RCV  (Read 900 times)

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Mike Zarren rare political tweet about RCV
« on: June 13, 2018, 10:26:36 AM »

Offline action781

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In 2016, Maine citizens voted in support of a ballot initiative to enact Ranked Choice Voting (RCV) -- a type of voting where instead of choosing just one candidate on a ballot, the voters rank their preferences of choices.

After 2016, the state legislature passed a bill to delay implementation of RCV until 2022, so Mainers underwent another petition campaign called a People's Veto to get it on the ballot again yesterday in their primaries which would force implementation immediately and it passed again.

I'm strongly in favor of this kind of nonpartisan electoral reform and cool to hear Zarren give his thumbs up on it too.  It would allow voters to vote with their heart rather than feeling like they have to vote for the "lesser of two evils" and it would eliminate the "spoiler effect" in third party candidates.

https://twitter.com/mikezarren/status/1006568053176401921

If you're interested in how RCV works, here is a two minute video from Minneapolis which uses RCV to elect their mayor - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53z9feUiqdg
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 10:43:41 AM by action781 »
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Re: Mike Zarren rare political tweet about RCV
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2018, 10:34:03 AM »

Offline saltlover

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Cambridge, MA uses ranked choice voting for city council.  I was a big fan when I lived there, and itís something weíre trying to implement in Maryland.
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Re: Mike Zarren rare political tweet about RCV
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2018, 12:53:12 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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I think itís terrible.  It confuses voters, delays results, and makes it so that a candidate not only needs to beat both his/her opponents, but needs to beat their combined strength.

Luckily it canít be used in statewide elections, but it made a mess of the primaries.  The predictable strategy going forward is that parties will run multiple candidates, one as an independent.  They will then attack their combined opponent 2-on-1.


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Re: Mike Zarren rare political tweet about RCV
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2018, 12:59:22 PM »

Offline saltlover

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I think itís terrible.  It confuses voters, delays results, and makes it so that a candidate not only needs to beat both his/her opponents, but needs to beat their combined strength.

Luckily it canít be used in statewide elections, but it made a mess of the primaries.  The predictable strategy going forward is that parties will run multiple candidates, one as an independent.  They will then attack their combined opponent 2-on-1.

You seem to be in the minority in your state, Roy, as 55 percent of the voters yesterday chose to keep it.
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Leviticus 19:33-34

Re: Mike Zarren rare political tweet about RCV
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2018, 01:11:07 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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I think itís terrible.  It confuses voters, delays results, and makes it so that a candidate not only needs to beat both his/her opponents, but needs to beat their combined strength.

Luckily it canít be used in statewide elections, but it made a mess of the primaries.  The predictable strategy going forward is that parties will run multiple candidates, one as an independent.  They will then attack their combined opponent 2-on-1.

You seem to be in the minority in your state, Roy, as 55 percent of the voters yesterday chose to keep it.

I don't really have an opinion on this subject since I haven't really spent much time considering it or researching it.

I will say, though, having an opinion that is in the minority doesn't really mean much other than its a minority opinion. It certainly doesn't prove one right or wrong. 

Re: Mike Zarren rare political tweet about RCV
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2018, 01:12:24 PM »

Offline saltlover

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I think itís terrible.  It confuses voters, delays results, and makes it so that a candidate not only needs to beat both his/her opponents, but needs to beat their combined strength.

Luckily it canít be used in statewide elections, but it made a mess of the primaries.  The predictable strategy going forward is that parties will run multiple candidates, one as an independent.  They will then attack their combined opponent 2-on-1.

You seem to be in the minority in your state, Roy, as 55 percent of the voters yesterday chose to keep it.

I don't really have an opinion on this subject since I haven't really spent much time considering it or researching it.

I will say, though, having an opinion that is in the minority doesn't really mean much other than its a minority opinion. It certainly doesn't prove one right or wrong.

I donít disagree, per se.  Iím just noting that the majority of people who used ranked-choice voting yesterday in Maine liked it enough to keep it around.
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Leviticus 19:33-34

Re: Mike Zarren rare political tweet about RCV
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2018, 01:25:55 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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I think itís terrible.  It confuses voters, delays results, and makes it so that a candidate not only needs to beat both his/her opponents, but needs to beat their combined strength.

Luckily it canít be used in statewide elections, but it made a mess of the primaries.  The predictable strategy going forward is that parties will run multiple candidates, one as an independent.  They will then attack their combined opponent 2-on-1.

You seem to be in the minority in your state, Roy, as 55 percent of the voters yesterday chose to keep it.

Respectfully, so what? The voters in my State get things wrong all the time. Itís a blue state, after all.

And, who knows what people were even voting for? Here was our question:

Quote
ďDo you want to reject the parts of a new law that would delay the use of ranked-choice voting in the election of candidates for any state or federal office until 2022, and then retain the method only if the constitution is amended by December 1, 2021, to allow ranked-choice voting for candidates in state elections?Ē

Whoever wrote that should be fired.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 01:31:24 PM by Roy H. »


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Re: Mike Zarren rare political tweet about RCV
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2018, 02:32:23 PM »

Offline bdm860

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Roy (or others), I'm not into politics, so maybe you can expound a little on your thoughts.  From a non-political person, RCV sounds like a great idea.

The predictable strategy going forward is that parties will run multiple candidates, one as an independent.  They will then attack their combined opponent 2-on-1.
 

Wouldn't that work both ways though, so it would net out to no advantage?  Democrats have their primary person, but also push an independent, but then Republicans do the same?

Sure the '16 Presidential election might have turned out different if it was Hilary, Bernie, Trump, and Cruz all running, but I think it would be more reflective of what the people wanted, no?

Wouldn't this just help move away from a 2 party system?  Or is a 2 party system actual better?

Quote
It confuses voters,

Any change will confuse voters at first (just like changing to the metric system would confuse people at first), but short term confusion isn't a reason to hold back a better system (well that is if you actually think it's better), people will adjust and get used to it and no longer be confused.  Short term confusion shouldn't hold back progress.

Quote
and makes it so that a candidate not only needs to beat both his/her opponents, but needs to beat their combined strength.

Why is this bad?  Maybe I just need an example to help visualize it a little.  Would this not help the keep people out of office who the majority don't want there?  So it makes it harder to win an election, shouldn't it be hard?

Quote
delays results

How much of a delay are we talking?  And how soon do we really need to know results.  I only know of the big elections, November election to go into office in January.  Seems like there's plenty of time there.  Doesn't seem like a big deal to a non-political person.

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Re: Mike Zarren rare political tweet about RCV
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2018, 02:49:07 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Quote
Wouldn't this just help move away from a 2 party system?  Or is a 2 party system actual better?

No. This system actually strengthens the establishment. Now, rather than a political outsider scoring an upset in a heavily contested race, itís even more likely that name recognition and spending will determine races. Even if the candidate favored by the establishment is behind after round 1, s/he will undoubtedly pick up votes in round 2 because of their inherent advantages.

This is essentially an attempt by the majority party to ensure that the minority never wins elections.  Itís a lot harder for a minority party to cobble together 50% of first and second place votes than it is for the majority.



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Re: Mike Zarren rare political tweet about RCV
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2018, 08:42:26 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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Quote
Wouldn't this just help move away from a 2 party system?  Or is a 2 party system actual better?

No. This system actually strengthens the establishment. Now, rather than a political outsider scoring an upset in a heavily contested race, itís even more likely that name recognition and spending will determine races. Even if the candidate favored by the establishment is behind after round 1, s/he will undoubtedly pick up votes in round 2 because of their inherent advantages.

This is essentially an attempt by the majority party to ensure that the minority never wins elections.  Itís a lot harder for a minority party to cobble together 50% of first and second place votes than it is for the majority.
really?  seems with a Republican Gov (seems like a real piece of work to someone from another state), 1 Rep Congressman, 1 Rep Senator and 1 former Rep Senator and only 1 Democrat congressman, this would not seem to be the case in Maine.  For a Blue state as you've called it, they seem to have no issue putting people from the 'red' party in positions of power.

Re: Mike Zarren rare political tweet about RCV
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2018, 08:50:39 AM »

Offline Surferdad

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I haven't studied RCV, but from I've heard about it, I like it.  One benefit could be that voters should actually study all the candidates positions to make an informed ranking.  Of course, being an informed voter is not required (which is actually a bigger issue, IMO) and you could end up with uninformed voters simply choosing names they like for those they rank below their #1 choice.

Re: Mike Zarren rare political tweet about RCV
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2018, 09:08:19 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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Quote
Wouldn't this just help move away from a 2 party system?  Or is a 2 party system actual better?

No. This system actually strengthens the establishment. Now, rather than a political outsider scoring an upset in a heavily contested race, itís even more likely that name recognition and spending will determine races. Even if the candidate favored by the establishment is behind after round 1, s/he will undoubtedly pick up votes in round 2 because of their inherent advantages.

This is essentially an attempt by the majority party to ensure that the minority never wins elections.  Itís a lot harder for a minority party to cobble together 50% of first and second place votes than it is for the majority.
really?  seems with a Republican Gov (seems like a real piece of work to someone from another state), 1 Rep Congressman, 1 Rep Senator and 1 former Rep Senator and only 1 Democrat congressman, this would not seem to be the case in Maine.  For a Blue state as you've called it, they seem to have no issue putting people from the 'red' party in positions of power.

Hence ranked choice, a plan to keep Republicans out of office, specifically the governorís office (although nobody bothered to read the Maine Constitution ahead of time; ranked choice voting in state elections is unconstitutional).  Weíve got four members of Congress: the most moderate Republican in the Senate, an ďindependentĒ that caucuses with Democrats, a fairly liberal Democrat in our 1st district, and a fairly conservative in our 2nd district. Maine consistently votes blue in Presidential elections, and has done so for the past 30 years (although the second district did give an electoral vote to Trump). So yes, weíre a blue state, with those in power trying to preserve blue results.

In a red state that had a history of running a Republican candidate and an ultra-conservative independent candidate, ranked choice would be used to keep Democrats out of office.


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Re: Mike Zarren rare political tweet about RCV
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2018, 09:08:57 AM »

Offline eja117

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As I think about it I think Roy is correct it strengthens the party of power.

Think of MA.

It's a very blue state.

Instead of seeing hypothetically Governor Baker and Martha Coakley on the ballot they see Baker, Coakley, Republican #2, Republican #3, Republican #4, and Democrats 2 thru 12.

They rank their top 5 choices as all Democrats.

Now in the election the GOP stands no chance whatsoever in the general election.

Red states will get way redder, and blue states will get way bluer and purple states will become solidly one color or the other in a fairly short period of time.

Dems will have no chance of a blue Texas ever again and the GOPs dreams of flipping CA back end immediately. Florida becomes red forever.

Discussion and compromise end.  I'd start investing in weapons systems and medicines for the inevitable civil war.

Re: Mike Zarren rare political tweet about RCV
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2018, 09:29:22 AM »

Offline Fan from VT

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I think it often will not make a difference; elections often come down to 1 strong member from each party.

If anything, this should protect against extremes. Take Trump in the Republican primary for example; maybe 30% of voters would vote for him no matter what, but 70% would want "anyone except him," so in a series of runoff votes, even if the first round was Trump 30, someone 25, someone 20, someone 15, etc., because there were many options, the "will" of the majority would be "not trump," and would be narrowed down among the "not trump" options.

Re: Mike Zarren rare political tweet about RCV
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2018, 09:46:03 AM »

Offline action781

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The Republican #1, Republican #2, Democrat #1, Democrat 2-12 all entering a general election together is not what happens in cities that use RCV.   Parties still exist have their own primary elections which can be held with RCV which means each party can put forward their best candidate because they will be putting forward their candidate with a majority support -- not a plurality of support.

For example, in the 2014 MA Gubernatorial election, Martha Coakley was considered a weak candidate.  She won the Democratic party nomination with only 42% of the party vote largely on the basis that she was a household name in MA after losing a 2010 US Senate general election and having served as state Attorney General for years.  The party really preferred a stronger candidate in Steve Grossman (36%) or Don Berwick (21%) (the convention endorsed Grossman). 

In short, RCV would allow a party to send forth its single best candidate to the general election.  Not have many candidates from the same party go to a general election.  It would also allow truly independent candidates to run as independent candidates rather than having to pander to some closest party that they really don't identify with (Bernie).
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