Author Topic: ESPN "Seven trades for Kawhi." Ridiculous.  (Read 1682 times)

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Re: ESPN "Seven trades for Kawhi." Ridiculous.
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2018, 12:17:51 AM »

Offline smokeablount

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Ingram has a lot of potential though and played pretty darn well down the stretch.  I doubt he alone is enough for Leonard, but he probably is very highly thought of around the league.  Most likely more highly thought of then Brown as an example.  he isn't in the Simmons class of prospect I don't think, but he probably isn't that far behind him either.

??  Ingram didn't play down the stretch. He sat out 20 of their last 22 games.

More highly thought of than Brown after Brown's playoff performance? Perhaps, by some.

Personally, I wouldn't trade Brown for Ingram straight up. My impression, admittedly having only watched Ingram a handful of games, is that Ingram has a higher potential as a shooter, but isn't the athlete, and nowhere near the defender Brown is. If I had to bet my life on one of them becoming a perennial all star, I'd take Brown.
I meant down his stretch and it is probably a good thing you don't have to bet your life on Brown as it probably wouldn't end well for you.

The Lakers were 16-7 in his last 23 games (16-10 in 2018).  In January he went for 14.2/5.5/3.8 and shot 36.4% from 3.  In February he upped those numbers to 18.6/5.2/5.6 and 52.2% from 3.  He only played 3 games in March, but still shot 50% from 3.

There was a lot to like with Ingram and the Lakers were winning when he was playing.  Now again, I don't think he is a Simmons/Tatum type of prospect, but I think he is pretty clearly in the Brown level and I would suspect most of the league probably has him ranked higher than Brown.

This is cherrypicking stats.
Or maybe it shows that the player that was considered very raw as a result of his age was turning the corner.  Maybe those last 2 months were a fluke.  Only time will tell, but there is a very real and distinct reason that everyone knew Simmons was going 1 and Ingram was going 2 in that draft and then it was a take your pick from the next 6 guys at 3-8. 

Ingram is almost a full year younger than Brown as well. 

I suspect if you polled NBA persons, in a redraft Ingram still goes 2.  Brown almost certainly goes 3 (whereas he wouldn't have at near the frequency closer to that draft).

Josh Jackson shot 38% on college threes as a freshman and people said it wasn’t a big enough sample size. Who cares what Ingram did for 6-7 weeks? Regardless, 20-25 games in January and Feb is worth less than 7 games in the conference finals, IE Jaylen Brown.
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Re: ESPN "Seven trades for Kawhi." Ridiculous.
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2018, 12:26:44 AM »

Offline smokeablount

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Ingram has a lot of potential though and played pretty darn well down the stretch.  I doubt he alone is enough for Leonard, but he probably is very highly thought of around the league.  Most likely more highly thought of then Brown as an example.  he isn't in the Simmons class of prospect I don't think, but he probably isn't that far behind him either.

??  Ingram didn't play down the stretch. He sat out 20 of their last 22 games.

More highly thought of than Brown after Brown's playoff performance? Perhaps, by some.

Personally, I wouldn't trade Brown for Ingram straight up. My impression, admittedly having only watched Ingram a handful of games, is that Ingram has a higher potential as a shooter, but isn't the athlete, and nowhere near the defender Brown is. If I had to bet my life on one of them becoming a perennial all star, I'd take Brown.
I meant down his stretch and it is probably a good thing you don't have to bet your life on Brown as it probably wouldn't end well for you.

The Lakers were 16-7 in his last 23 games (16-10 in 2018).  In January he went for 14.2/5.5/3.8 and shot 36.4% from 3.  In February he upped those numbers to 18.6/5.2/5.6 and 52.2% from 3.  He only played 3 games in March, but still shot 50% from 3.

There was a lot to like with Ingram and the Lakers were winning when he was playing.  Now again, I don't think he is a Simmons/Tatum type of prospect, but I think he is pretty clearly in the Brown level and I would suspect most of the league probably has him ranked higher than Brown.

This is cherrypicking stats.
Or maybe it shows that the player that was considered very raw as a result of his age was turning the corner.  Maybe those last 2 months were a fluke.  Only time will tell, but there is a very real and distinct reason that everyone knew Simmons was going 1 and Ingram was going 2 in that draft and then it was a take your pick from the next 6 guys at 3-8. 

Ingram is almost a full year younger than Brown as well. 

I suspect if you polled NBA persons, in a redraft Ingram still goes 2.  Brown almost certainly goes 3 (whereas he wouldn't have at near the frequency closer to that draft).

The Lakers had all of 4 quality wins during Jan and Feb with the Spurs decimated (Pacers, Celtics, OKC x2) but, to cherrypick, only 2 wins against decent opponents besides OKC, and more than 4 losses to bottom 8 teams. So Ingram’s stats look pretty empty.
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And forgive us our tanking
As we forgive those who tanked against us
And lead us not into the lottery
But deliver us from losing

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Re: ESPN "Seven trades for Kawhi." Ridiculous.
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2018, 12:36:18 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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Ingram has a lot of potential though and played pretty darn well down the stretch.  I doubt he alone is enough for Leonard, but he probably is very highly thought of around the league.  Most likely more highly thought of then Brown as an example.  he isn't in the Simmons class of prospect I don't think, but he probably isn't that far behind him either.

??  Ingram didn't play down the stretch. He sat out 20 of their last 22 games.

More highly thought of than Brown after Brown's playoff performance? Perhaps, by some.

Personally, I wouldn't trade Brown for Ingram straight up. My impression, admittedly having only watched Ingram a handful of games, is that Ingram has a higher potential as a shooter, but isn't the athlete, and nowhere near the defender Brown is. If I had to bet my life on one of them becoming a perennial all star, I'd take Brown.

While he certainly is lacking in the athleticism department, what's even worse is that, in terms of agility/quickness, dude is really only rivaled by Kyle Anderson, imo, LOL. Had Ingram been white, I'm honestly unsure as to whether or not he even would have been drafted in 2016.

On the other hand, had he been a European prospect, I'm sure that everyone would have been gushing over his skill level ::). Give me a break.
Hey don’t you diss Slow-Mo!

People were still gushing over his skill level when he was at college. I remember the days when people were saying things like “would you rather draft LeBron (Simmons) or Durant (Ingram)?” Good times!
I don’t think anyone would even consider taking Ingram over Brown, and after next season I can see Brown being on the same tier as Simmons

Lol. Yeah, I never saw the Durant comparison, body type notwithstanding, of course ;D.

Re: ESPN "Seven trades for Kawhi." Ridiculous.
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2018, 12:42:15 AM »

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Quote
Ingram has a lot of potential though and played pretty darn well down the stretch.  I doubt he alone is enough for Leonard, but he probably is very highly thought of around the league.  Most likely more highly thought of then Brown as an example.  he isn't in the Simmons class of prospect I don't think, but he probably isn't that far behind him either.

??  Ingram didn't play down the stretch. He sat out 20 of their last 22 games.

More highly thought of than Brown after Brown's playoff performance? Perhaps, by some.

Personally, I wouldn't trade Brown for Ingram straight up. My impression, admittedly having only watched Ingram a handful of games, is that Ingram has a higher potential as a shooter, but isn't the athlete, and nowhere near the defender Brown is. If I had to bet my life on one of them becoming a perennial all star, I'd take Brown.
I meant down his stretch and it is probably a good thing you don't have to bet your life on Brown as it probably wouldn't end well for you.

The Lakers were 16-7 in his last 23 games (16-10 in 2018).  In January he went for 14.2/5.5/3.8 and shot 36.4% from 3.  In February he upped those numbers to 18.6/5.2/5.6 and 52.2% from 3.  He only played 3 games in March, but still shot 50% from 3.

There was a lot to like with Ingram and the Lakers were winning when he was playing.  Now again, I don't think he is a Simmons/Tatum type of prospect, but I think he is pretty clearly in the Brown level and I would suspect most of the league probably has him ranked higher than Brown.
Brown is a head over heels better defender than Ingram. Brown had the 19th most votes for 2018 All-Defense team, with 5 1st team votes!!! They shoot similar percentages for FG%, FT%, and 3PT% but looking closer, Brown takes a much higher percentage of his shots from 3, like 38% to 14%. Hell, Brown made more 3 pointers in the pressure filled, NBA playoffs than Ingram made all year. Brown is the more efficient scorer. AND Brown proved himself on the largest stage possible.

I think its a safe bet that after the playoffs, most if not all GMs are looking at Brown as the better player with higher upside. Hell, I would venture to guess if you asked Lebron James if he could have 2 21 year old and younger players on his team, who would he want, he's probably saying Tatum and Brown.

Re: ESPN "Seven trades for Kawhi." Ridiculous.
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2018, 11:30:48 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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Ingram has a lot of potential though and played pretty darn well down the stretch.  I doubt he alone is enough for Leonard, but he probably is very highly thought of around the league.  Most likely more highly thought of then Brown as an example. 


Yeah, I'm sure that people around the league think more highly of the beanpole with inefficient scoring and no defense over the player who showed versatile defense and composure while scoring 18 points per game for a team that came within one quarter of making the Finals.

The bolded isn't actually true, by the way.  Ingram still struggles from the line, but his shooting has improved a lot particularly from deep.  And he uses his length well on defense. 

Ingram is a very good prospect.  I wouldn't take him over Brown, but it's closer than this board wants to believe - perhaps even a push.

Eh, he took less than 2 threes per game as wing and isn't a good free throw shooter, as you said.  He needs to be a much better scorer within 10 feet in order to make up for that.

He's improving a bit as a playmaker but doesn't generate much in the way of steals or blocks.  On top of that he's a poor rebounder.


I just don't see it.  Looks like a borderline starter to me. 



Besides, the question here is what people around the league think about the two players, and I just don't buy that talent evaluators around the league put more stock in what Ingram has done for a bad Lakers team with no stakes than what Brown has done for a team that made the ECF two years in a row.  Playoff performance gets valued more highly than regular season performance.  There are good reasons for that.
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Re: ESPN "Seven trades for Kawhi." Ridiculous.
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2018, 09:07:58 PM »

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To further the discussion of whether Brown is considered a better prospect than Ingram, there is this chart from ESPN regarding how the top pick isn't always the best player:

No. 1 picks vs. best player in the draft
No. 1 Picks
YEAR   NO. 1   BEST?   CONTENDERS
2017   M. Fultz   No   J. Tatum, D. Mitchell
2016   B. Simmons   Yes   J. Brown
2015   K. Towns   Maybe   K. Porzingis
2014   A. Wiggins   No   J. Embiid, N. Jokic, C. Capela
2013   A. Bennett   No   Giannis, R. Gobert, V. Oladipo
2012   A. Davis   Yes   D. Lillard, D. Green, B. Beal
2011   K. Irving   Maybe   K. Leonard
2010   J. Wall   Maybe   D. Cousins, P. George
2009   B. Griffin   No   S. Curry, J. Harden
2008   D. Rose   No   R. Westbrook, K. Love
2007   G. Oden   No   K. Durant
2006   A. Bargnani   No   L. Aldridge, P. Millsap, K. Lowry
2005   A. Bogut   No   C. Paul
2004   D. Howard   Yes   A. Iguodala, L. Deng
2003   L. James   Yes   D. Wade, C. Bosh., C. Anthony
2002   Y. Ming   Maybe   Amar'e Stoudemire
2001   K. Brown   No   P. Gasol, T. Parker
2000   K. Martin   No   M. Redd
1999   E. Brand   Maybe   S. Marion, M. Ginobili
1998   M. Olowokandi   No   D. Nowitzki
1997   T. Duncan   Yes   T. McGrady, C. Billups
1996   A. Iverson   No   K. Bryant
1995   J. Smith   No   K. Garnett
1994   G. Robinson   No   J. Kidd
1993   C. Webber   Maybe   P. Hardaway
1992   S. O'Neal   Yes   A. Mourning
1991   L. Johnson   No   D. Mutombo
1990   D. Coleman   No   G. Payton
1989   P. Ellison   No   S. Kemp, G. Rice, T. Hardaway
1988   D. Manning   No   H. Hawkins, A. Mason, M. Richmond

So Givony and others there think the only player who could be a contender for best player in the 2016 besides Simmons is Brown