Author Topic: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)  (Read 1219 times)

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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #75 on: June 12, 2018, 05:11:53 PM »

Offline liam

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We gave up nothing concrete, the same as North Korea.

Why do you believe only the US is bound here?

If the Pentagon wants, they could resume war games tomorrow. Heck, theyíre not even scheduled to commence until the fall.
Appearances matter in international politics. It's not a controversial concept.

You will be happy to know then that we have made no obligations regarding our military games with Japan.

"Equally surprising as Trumpís military announcement was the fact that he reportedly took this unilateral step without notifying South Korean and Japanese allies, or the Pentagon"

Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #76 on: June 12, 2018, 05:14:04 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Now my problem with this is why Trump felt he had to get involved with direct talks with Kim. Our country has come to diplomatic agreements with other countries without state leadership meetings. Obama didn't need to meet with Iranian leaders to get that nuclear agreement in place. And, Trump seems to alienate other world leaders at these neetings. Hell, he completely botched the G7 summit.
Obama shaking hands with the Ayatollah against a backdrop of logos of intertwining US and Iranian flags. Seems fine to me.
Obviously, and I don't think we needed the visuals of Trump with Kim either. Everything that happened could have been done without the leaders getting involved.

Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #77 on: June 12, 2018, 05:20:16 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Now my problem with this is why Trump felt he had to get involved with direct talks with Kim. Our country has come to diplomatic agreements with other countries without state leadership meetings. Obama didn't need to meet with Iranian leaders to get that nuclear agreement in place. And, Trump seems to alienate other world leaders at these neetings. Hell, he completely botched the G7 summit.
Obama shaking hands with the Ayatollah against a backdrop of logos of intertwining US and Iranian flags. Seems fine to me.
Obviously, and I don't think we needed the visuals of Trump with Kim either. Everything that happened could have been done without the leaders getting involved.
Yes, but people tend to brush away the fact that Kim was just in it for the visuals. He didn't make any commitments re: nuclear capability that he hadn't already made in the bilateral Korean declaration from April.

I would have been impressed if Trump had gotten North Korea to recommit to the 2005 accords.  Right now, we're dangerously close to giving a clear pathway to every dictator that wants to extract military concessions from the United States: just build a couple of nukes, and we'll give you what you want.
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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #78 on: June 12, 2018, 05:20:42 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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We gave up nothing concrete, the same as North Korea.

Why do you believe only the US is bound here?

If the Pentagon wants, they could resume war games tomorrow. Heck, theyíre not even scheduled to commence until the fall.
Appearances matter in international politics. It's not a controversial concept.

You will be happy to know then that we have made no obligations regarding our military games with Japan.

"Equally surprising as Trumpís military announcement was the fact that he reportedly took this unilateral step without notifying South Korean and Japanese allies, or the Pentagon"

Why should we need to tell Japan? As I stated, weíre continuing our war games (just off the Korean Peninsula) with Japan.


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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #79 on: June 12, 2018, 05:25:22 PM »

Offline liam

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Now my problem with this is why Trump felt he had to get involved with direct talks with Kim. Our country has come to diplomatic agreements with other countries without state leadership meetings. Obama didn't need to meet with Iranian leaders to get that nuclear agreement in place. And, Trump seems to alienate other world leaders at these neetings. Hell, he completely botched the G7 summit.
Obama shaking hands with the Ayatollah against a backdrop of logos of intertwining US and Iranian flags. Seems fine to me.
Obviously, and I don't think we needed the visuals of Trump with Kim either. Everything that happened could have been done without the leaders getting involved.
Yes, but people tend to brush away the fact that Kim was just in it for the visuals. He didn't make any commitments re: nuclear capability that he hadn't already made in the bilateral Korean declaration from April.

I would have been impressed if Trump had gotten North Korea to recommit to the 2005 accords.  Right now, we're dangerously close to giving a clear pathway to every dictator that wants to extract military concessions from the United States: just build a couple of nukes, and we'll give you what you want.

Yeah, Trump just legitimized another tin pot dictator.

ďWhatís really disconcerting is that Trump announced unilaterally to the leader of North Korea that the United States is going to stop military exercises with our allies, without first telling our allies or even the Pentagon. Thatís astonishing,Ē said Michael Green, a senior vice president for Asia at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) and a former senior director for Asia on the National Security Council. ďThen Trump says heíd like to pull U.S. troops out of Asia, which is a real heart-warming development for Beijing and Moscow, who want nothing more than to weaken and eventually unravel our alliances. So this is a pretty stunning development.Ē

Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #80 on: June 12, 2018, 05:53:05 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Yeah, the more i read about it, the more apparent it is that Kim has been wanting to be taken seriously for a long time; meeting with him was never an obstacle, it's what he wants to legitimize his dictatorship. Meeting with him while getting some concrete progress on liberties, human rights, de-nuclearization, etc, was the barrier to prior meetings. So Trump got none of those, but got photos, legitimization of his regime, AND a promise to decrease US support for South Korea on the border.

Any bets on amount of time before there's a Trump Hotel in N Korea?
You certainly caught this  comment from the summit, right?

Quote
"They (North Korea) have great beaches. You see that whenever they're exploding their cannons into the ocean. I said, 'Boy look at that view. Wouldn't that make a great condo?'," he told reporters after meeting Mr Kim.

Oh come, now, Koz -



::) ;D

Quote
We gave North Korea what they wanted and more

What did we give them?  A sit down?

That's about the only thing that's binding here.  Six months ago people were gnashing their teeth about nuclear war.  Now, we seem further away from that, but people are convinced that it's a bad thing.

We agreed in writing to stop our military games and remove the nuclear defense curtain over South Korea.

What did we get in return? Nothing

And they agreed in writing to denuclearize.

Either "in writing" matters, or it doesn't.  You can't argue that it's binding when the US does it, but not when North Korea does.



Quote
Trump gave up the war games. What did North Korea give up?

The best thing about the summit is seeing so many progressives crying about us not showing off our military strength enough.

What good do the war games do? What purpose do they serve, other than a thumb in the eye to North Korea? Basically, theyíre a preparation for skirmishes that would never happen. Itís 1 million troops against what, 50,000? No amount of ďgamesĒ are going to even those odds.

You win a war against North Korea by never having one in the first place.

While I can't remember as to the exact thread, and especially because it was some time ago, didn't you once state that you wanted the the United States to have the most powerful military on the planet that would also remain at optimum readiness, because, well, war games, as much as they are saber-rattling spectacles more often than not, imo, comprise a good portion of that necessary preparation.

Oh well, on the plus side, Trump can now use all of the money that we'll save from not holding said military exercises on his new real estate venture ::) ;D.

« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 05:58:26 PM by Beat LA »

Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #81 on: June 12, 2018, 08:52:32 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Thanks for the reply Kozlodoev. Apparently we disagree on almost everything on this issue, but the reply is appreciated.

Anyway, in an imaginary world where we could dictate US foreign policy, what would you like to see? More US help for the Republic of Korea, a harder stance towards the DPRK or what?
Look, North Korea is a proven bad actor. They've made bombastic promises before just to weasel out after extracting concessions.

But even if you're determined to have this summit, you send in the aides first for preliminary talks to make sure that you're at least in the same ballpark on issues. Have them agree in general terms about the stuff you agree on. Then have the summit with most of the framework already in place -- not have the summit first and then scramble to figure out the framework.

Oh, and by the way, suspending military drills was apparently... a Chinese idea. I'm sure the bubbly is out in Beijing and Moscow as we speak.
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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #82 on: June 13, 2018, 11:06:28 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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By the way, it seems Kim doesn't have to worry about putting together totalitarian propaganda materials. The White House seems happy to do that for him.

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-sensational-idiocy-of-donald-trumps-propaganda-video-for-kim-jong-un

Oh, and about sanctions -- there's this bit...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-13/north-korea-says-trump-agreed-to-lift-sanctions-after-meeting
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 11:15:04 AM by kozlodoev »
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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #83 on: June 14, 2018, 04:34:13 PM »

Offline liam

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Maybe Trump got something:

 "It looks like North Korea is coming through with a 'major' denuclearization step for Trump"

http://www.businessinsider.com/north-korea-reportedly-makes-a-major-denuclearization-step-for-trump-2018-6?amp%3Butm_medium=referral

Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #84 on: June 14, 2018, 04:59:44 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Maybe Trump got something:

 "It looks like North Korea is coming through with a 'major' denuclearization step for Trump"

http://www.businessinsider.com/north-korea-reportedly-makes-a-major-denuclearization-step-for-trump-2018-6?amp%3Butm_medium=referral

If Trump pulls this off, it will be one of the most unlikely diplomatic achievements in world history. I say that without any hyperbole.

Iím still skeptical but hopeful.


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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #85 on: June 14, 2018, 05:12:57 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Maybe Trump got something:

 "It looks like North Korea is coming through with a 'major' denuclearization step for Trump"

http://www.businessinsider.com/north-korea-reportedly-makes-a-major-denuclearization-step-for-trump-2018-6?amp%3Butm_medium=referral

If Trump pulls this off, it will be one of the most unlikely diplomatic achievements in world history. I say that without any hyperbole.

Iím still skeptical but hopeful.
To call the current state of affairs "coming through" is comical at best. Call me when there's a specific plan for something, anything, "verifiable" and "irreversible". This includes, but is not limited to North Korea disclosing its full nuclear capabilities and allowing IAEA inspections of dismantled sites. Until we get to that point, it's all lip service.

Oh, and did you catch the juicy but where Trump disclosed our intelligence methods to Kim?
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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #86 on: June 14, 2018, 05:40:31 PM »

Offline byennie

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Maybe Trump got something:

 "It looks like North Korea is coming through with a 'major' denuclearization step for Trump"

http://www.businessinsider.com/north-korea-reportedly-makes-a-major-denuclearization-step-for-trump-2018-6?amp%3Butm_medium=referral

If Trump pulls this off, it will be one of the most unlikely diplomatic achievements in world history. I say that without any hyperbole.

Iím still skeptical but hopeful.
To call the current state of affairs "coming through" is comical at best. Call me when there's a specific plan for something, anything, "verifiable" and "irreversible". This includes, but is not limited to North Korea disclosing its full nuclear capabilities and allowing IAEA inspections of dismantled sites. Until we get to that point, it's all lip service.

Oh, and did you catch the juicy but where Trump disclosed our intelligence methods to Kim?

I don't think NK was unaware of heat signatures from their facilities. Trump may be loose lipped, but that's not exactly top secret info.

I agree with the former comments, though. Even if they destroy this site we should be wary. They've been reported to have 100 different sites. It's not nuclear material. It can be rebuilt, especially with $$ gained from any loosened sanctions. NK is good at this PR game.
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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #87 on: June 14, 2018, 08:51:36 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Maybe Trump got something:

 "It looks like North Korea is coming through with a 'major' denuclearization step for Trump"

http://www.businessinsider.com/north-korea-reportedly-makes-a-major-denuclearization-step-for-trump-2018-6?amp%3Butm_medium=referral

If Trump pulls this off, it will be one of the most unlikely diplomatic achievements in world history. I say that without any hyperbole.

Iím still skeptical but hopeful.
To call the current state of affairs "coming through" is comical at best. Call me when there's a specific plan for something, anything, "verifiable" and "irreversible". This includes, but is not limited to North Korea disclosing its full nuclear capabilities and allowing IAEA inspections of dismantled sites. Until we get to that point, it's all lip service.

Oh, and did you catch the juicy but where Trump disclosed our intelligence methods to Kim?

I don't think NK was unaware of heat signatures from their facilities. Trump may be loose lipped, but that's not exactly top secret info.

I agree with the former comments, though. Even if they destroy this site we should be wary. They've been reported to have 100 different sites. It's not nuclear material. It can be rebuilt, especially with $$ gained from any loosened sanctions. NK is good at this PR game.
Here's what Pompeo had to say about "irreversible and verifiable". I regret to say I can't be as hopeful as Roy...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pompeo-berates-reporter-for-question-about-verifying-north-korea-denuclearization/
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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #88 on: June 15, 2018, 12:24:20 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Maybe Trump got something:

 "It looks like North Korea is coming through with a 'major' denuclearization step for Trump"

http://www.businessinsider.com/north-korea-reportedly-makes-a-major-denuclearization-step-for-trump-2018-6?amp%3Butm_medium=referral

If Trump pulls this off, it will be one of the most unlikely diplomatic achievements in world history. I say that without any hyperbole.

Iím still skeptical but hopeful.
To call the current state of affairs "coming through" is comical at best. Call me when there's a specific plan for something, anything, "verifiable" and "irreversible". This includes, but is not limited to North Korea disclosing its full nuclear capabilities and allowing IAEA inspections of dismantled sites. Until we get to that point, it's all lip service.

Oh, and did you catch the juicy but where Trump disclosed our intelligence methods to Kim?

I don't think NK was unaware of heat signatures from their facilities. Trump may be loose lipped, but that's not exactly top secret info.

I agree with the former comments, though. Even if they destroy this site we should be wary. They've been reported to have 100 different sites. It's not nuclear material. It can be rebuilt, especially with $$ gained from any loosened sanctions. NK is good at this PR game.
Here's what Pompeo had to say about "irreversible and verifiable". I regret to say I can't be as hopeful as Roy...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pompeo-berates-reporter-for-question-about-verifying-north-korea-denuclearization/
So Pompeo is following Trump administration protocol: When asked a difficult question, especially a question that makes complete sense but who's answer will make the President look bad, just insult the person who questioned you, call the question stupid, dumb, ignorant, ludicrous, assinine, etc., and don't answer the question.