Author Topic: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)  (Read 2701 times)

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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #60 on: June 12, 2018, 04:05:08 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Trump gave up the war games. What did North Korea give up?

The best thing about the summit is seeing so many progressives crying about us not showing off our military strength enough.

What good do the war games do? What purpose do they serve, other than a thumb in the eye to North Korea? Basically, they’re a preparation for skirmishes that would never happen. It’s 1 million troops against what, 50,000? No amount of “games” are going to even those odds.

You win a war against North Korea by never having one in the first place.

I'm not sure what a progressive is. I don't want to show off military strength. The US spends more on the military than the rest of the world. No need to show off. My point was that if you are negotiating, especially if you are the best negotiator,  you get something when you give up something.

We gave up nothing concrete, the same as North Korea.

Why do you believe only the US is bound here?

If the Pentagon wants, they could resume war games tomorrow. Heck, they’re not even scheduled to commence until the fall.


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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #61 on: June 12, 2018, 04:06:46 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Trump gave up the war games. What did North Korea give up?

The best thing about the summit is seeing so many progressives crying about us not showing off our military strength enough.

What good do the war games do? What purpose do they serve, other than a thumb in the eye to North Korea? Basically, they’re a preparation for skirmishes that would never happen. It’s 1 million troops against what, 50,000? No amount of “games” are going to even those odds.

You win a war against North Korea by never having one in the first place.
No-one here is concerned about showing off our military might. Many, however, are concerned about blindsiding our allies and hanging them out to dry.

Strawman much?

Since South Korea publicly supported the joint statement I guess there’s nothing to worry about, then. Case closed.

And as a bonus, Japan is happy about the commitment to repatriate the remains of MIAs. So, scoreboard: two allies happy, the world farther from nuclear war, if ever so slightly. Now, let’s see the follow through.


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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #62 on: June 12, 2018, 04:09:24 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Since South Korea publicly supported the joint statement I guess there’s nothing to worry about, then. Case closed.
Cancelling the military exercises was not in the statement. Trump mentioned that in an offhand comment afterwards which sent both his own military and the Koreans scrambling.
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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #63 on: June 12, 2018, 04:17:45 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Since South Korea publicly supported the joint statement I guess there’s nothing to worry about, then. Case closed.
Cancelling the military exercises was not in the statement. Trump mentioned that in an offhand comment afterwards which sent both his own military and the Koreans scrambling.

I’m sure South Korea is broken up and was caught completely off guard.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-scrapped-training-exercise-with-south-korea-involving-b-52s-1526651491


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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #64 on: June 12, 2018, 04:21:47 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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We gave up nothing concrete, the same as North Korea.

Why do you believe only the US is bound here?

If the Pentagon wants, they could resume war games tomorrow. Heck, they’re not even scheduled to commence until the fall.
Appearances matter in international politics. It's not a controversial concept.
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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #65 on: June 12, 2018, 04:24:21 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Since South Korea publicly supported the joint statement I guess there’s nothing to worry about, then. Case closed.
Cancelling the military exercises was not in the statement. Trump mentioned that in an offhand comment afterwards which sent both his own military and the Koreans scrambling.

I’m sure South Korea is broken up and was caught completely off guard.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-scrapped-training-exercise-with-south-korea-involving-b-52s-1526651491
I'm sure you realize the difference between scrapping an exercise at host side's request, and scrapping an exercise without notifying anyone and then just blurting it out to the press. Come on.
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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #66 on: June 12, 2018, 04:27:01 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Since South Korea publicly supported the joint statement I guess there’s nothing to worry about, then. Case closed.
Cancelling the military exercises was not in the statement. Trump mentioned that in an offhand comment afterwards which sent both his own military and the Koreans scrambling.

I’m sure South Korea is broken up and was caught completely off guard.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-scrapped-training-exercise-with-south-korea-involving-b-52s-1526651491
I'm sure you realize the difference between scrapping an exercise at host side's request, and scrapping an exercise without notifying anyone and then just blurting it out to the press. Come on.

Which do you think South Korea prefers, 2 weeks of war games or the potential beginning of peace?

South Korea, through its words after the summit and through its prior actions seems happy.

South


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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #67 on: June 12, 2018, 04:29:19 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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We gave up nothing concrete, the same as North Korea.

Why do you believe only the US is bound here?

If the Pentagon wants, they could resume war games tomorrow. Heck, they’re not even scheduled to commence until the fall.
Appearances matter in international politics. It's not a controversial concept.

You will be happy to know then that we have made no obligations regarding our military games with Japan.


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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #68 on: June 12, 2018, 04:30:17 PM »

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Trump gave up the war games. What did North Korea give up?

The best thing about the summit is seeing so many progressives crying about us not showing off our military strength enough.

What good do the war games do? What purpose do they serve, other than a thumb in the eye to North Korea? Basically, they’re a preparation for skirmishes that would never happen. It’s 1 million troops against what, 50,000? No amount of “games” are going to even those odds.

You win a war against North Korea by never having one in the first place.

I'm not sure what a progressive is. I don't want to show off military strength. The US spends more on the military than the rest of the world. No need to show off. My point was that if you are negotiating, especially if you are the best negotiator,  you get something when you give up something.

I 2nd this.  It doesn't seem that anyone here wants us to show off military strength.  And I don't think anyone here thinks this is a final step of any process.  If we could get an actual real agreement with N Korea which would require them to destroy their nuclear weapons and begin a real diplomatic dialog with the US and South Korea it would be huge.

Unfortunately what I have read about the agreement makes it seem way more token and not substantial at all.  I think we all should be skeptical that N. Korea is going to somehow change their spots in how they deal with us just because Trump met with Kim.  Trump is looking for any distraction at this point...and Kim just wants legitimacy no matter how he gets it.

Trump just appears so inexperienced and unnuanced in his understanding of global politics and the historic goals of the US and our allies.  It's shocking.  Trump says he doesn't want or need briefings on this stuff ( there have been numerous reports that he refuses to read any detailed reports).  The white house cabinet somehow needs to keep Trump out of these negotiations.  He can't even meet with our allies without causing problems, why should we expect that meetings with adversaries will go any better?  I am more upset about Trump's idiotic trade war and his poor treatment of our allies.  This N Korea meeting is fluff and distraction.


Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #69 on: June 12, 2018, 04:35:07 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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We gave up nothing concrete, the same as North Korea.

Why do you believe only the US is bound here?

If the Pentagon wants, they could resume war games tomorrow. Heck, they’re not even scheduled to commence until the fall.
Appearances matter in international politics. It's not a controversial concept.

You will be happy to know then that we have made no obligations regarding our military games with Japan.
On the other hand, the South Koreans certainly seem delighted.

Quote
A South Korean official said he initially thought Trump had misspoken.

“I was shocked when he called the exercises ‘provocative,’ a very unlikely word to be used by a U.S. president,” the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity.
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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #70 on: June 12, 2018, 04:38:12 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Trump just appears so inexperienced and unnuanced in his understanding of global politics and the historic goals of the US and our allies.  It's shocking.  Trump says he doesn't want or need briefings on this stuff ( there have been numerous reports that he refuses to read any detailed reports).  The white house cabinet somehow needs to keep Trump out of these negotiations.  He can't even meet with our allies without causing problems, why should we expect that meetings with adversaries will go any better?  I am more upset about Trump's idiotic trade war and his poor treatment of our allies.  This N Korea meeting is fluff and distraction.
Trump doesn't seem to understand anything written on paper that doesn't have dollar value attached to it. Although his recent tirades about trade deficits make me think this is a necessary but definitely not sufficient condition.
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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #71 on: June 12, 2018, 04:41:08 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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I for one would like to see the Korean War end.   As a veteran, I will tell you, they still take shots at each other across the DMZ folks.

I don't know if Pres. Trump is going to that done but I would like to see it done.

Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #72 on: June 12, 2018, 04:47:42 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I for one would like to see the Korean War end.   As a veteran, I will tell you, they still take shots at each other across the DMZ folks.

I don't know if Pres. Trump is going to that done but I would like to see it done.
North and South Korea already signed a declaration months ago committing to an end of hostilities. Trump doesn't have much to do with that.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/04/27/the-panmmunjom-declaration-full-text-of-agreement-between-north-korea-and-south-korea/
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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #73 on: June 12, 2018, 04:57:09 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Any step towards peace is a good step, even if its just a brief meeting with little to nothing concrete being decided or put to paper. Hopefully, this isn't a few things:

1. The only step in the process without future negotiations and a real set of accords being reached and agreed upon by both parties.

2. Just North Korea going through the motions as they stall to get their nuclear programs restarted after having major setbacks with their main nuclear site being destroyed(speculation that has been around for weeks).

3. Trump doing this just for trying to get a  personal accolade such as a Nobel Peace Prize.

4. Just North Korea trying to get away from Chinese influence and dependence


Now my problem with this is why Trump felt he had to get involved with direct talks with Kim. Our country has come to diplomatic agreements with other countries without state leadership meetings. Obama didn't need to meet with Iranian leaders to get that nuclear agreement in place. And, Trump seems to alienate other world leaders at these neetings. Hell, he completely botched the G7 summit.

The meeting with Korea will hopefully, eventually lead to a safer more peaceful world, but I have no faith in North Korea or Donald Trump to pull it off.

Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #74 on: June 12, 2018, 05:09:40 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Now my problem with this is why Trump felt he had to get involved with direct talks with Kim. Our country has come to diplomatic agreements with other countries without state leadership meetings. Obama didn't need to meet with Iranian leaders to get that nuclear agreement in place. And, Trump seems to alienate other world leaders at these neetings. Hell, he completely botched the G7 summit.
Obama shaking hands with the Ayatollah against a backdrop of logos of intertwining US and Iranian flags. Seems fine to me.
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