Author Topic: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)  (Read 2702 times)

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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2018, 01:07:38 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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We gave North Korea what they wanted and more

What did we give them?  A sit down?

That's about the only thing that's binding here.  Six months ago people were gnashing their teeth about nuclear war.  Now, we seem further away from that, but people are convinced that it's a bad thing.

We agreed in writing to stop our military games and remove the nuclear defense curtain over South Korea.

What did we get in return? Nothing

Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2018, 01:10:57 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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In broad terms, it's about the United States being eager to suck up to all sorts of garden variety tyrants and throw allies under the bus. We're flushing decades' worth of goodwill down the toilet right now.

I'm curious, did you feel the same way when Obama threw Israel under the bus repeatedly?  I wouldn't worry too much about South Korea's goodwill, since they depend upon us almost exclusively for military defense.  They'll get in line, or they'll put their security at risk.

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And part of the reason why dissent is close to unheard of is because the population is on a steady diet of state-curated information about the outside world.

And, they would be fed a steady diet of state-curated information without this summit.  The population at large thinks that their ruler is a deity.  Would that change if we refused to meet with Kim?

Curtailing blind support for Israel for the sake of any reasonable peace agreement, while Israeli is killing innocent civilians and continuing to invade Palestinian Territories is far from throwing them under the bus.

What Trump has done with Middle East policy has set back any chance of peace for decades.

There's no hope for peace in the Middle East so long as Hamas and Iran are calling the shots.


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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2018, 01:12:00 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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We gave North Korea what they wanted and more

What did we give them?  A sit down?

That's about the only thing that's binding here.  Six months ago people were gnashing their teeth about nuclear war.  Now, we seem further away from that, but people are convinced that it's a bad thing.

We agreed in writing to stop our military games and remove the nuclear defense curtain over South Korea.

What did we get in return? Nothing

And they agreed in writing to denuclearize.

Either "in writing" matters, or it doesn't.  You can't argue that it's binding when the US does it, but not when North Korea does.


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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2018, 01:30:17 PM »

Offline 86MaxwellSmart

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Wow, there are too many CNN viewers on this site.
Larry Bird was Greater than you think.

Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #49 on: June 12, 2018, 01:35:17 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Wow, there are too many CNN viewers on this site.
The board is largely liberal which shouldn't be at all surprising given the demographic

1. Boston
2. NBA Fans
3. Internet blog users i.e. younger folks

All tend to be more liberal than the general population. If I recall correctly the blog went something like 3:1 to Hillary.
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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2018, 02:11:03 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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And they agreed in writing to denuclearize.

Either "in writing" matters, or it doesn't.  You can't argue that it's binding when the US does it, but not when North Korea does.
I can see how you can be misjudging the success of this summit if you think this actually happened. It didn't.

What North Korea agreed to, in writing, was to "work towards complete denucliarization of the Korean Peninsula".

To those of you new to the diplomatic lingo in general and North Korean negotiations in particular, let me translate:

1. "Agreed to work towards" is not the same as "agreed to do something". In particular, it doesn't specify North Korea doing anything in particular to any particular part of its nuclear program.

2. "Complete denucliarization (of the Korean Peninsula)" doesn't mean what you think it does. Basically, it implies US troops recall and pulling the US nuclear shield from South Korea.

So what you have is a piece of paper essentially stating that if the United States goes home, Korea  may start destroying something at their own pace and without a specified mechanism of monitoring and control (not even a broad one). I'm sure the Chinese are ecstatic.

This might seem like conjecture to you, but we've already been there with North Korea, and that's exactly how it panned out.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 02:22:03 PM by kozlodoev »
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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #51 on: June 12, 2018, 02:14:32 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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There's no hope for peace in the Middle East so long as Hamas and Iran are calling the shots.
I don't think Israel is interested in peace in the Middle East.
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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #52 on: June 12, 2018, 02:17:47 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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There's no hope for peace in the Middle East so long as Hamas and Iran are calling the shots.
I don't think Israel is interested in peace in the Middle East.
Neither Israel nor Hamas believe in compromise with regards to Israel.
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #53 on: June 12, 2018, 02:23:12 PM »

Offline liam

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And they agreed in writing to denuclearize.

Either "in writing" matters, or it doesn't.  You can't argue that it's binding when the US does it, but not when North Korea does.
I can see how you can be misjudging the success of this summit if you think this actually happened. It didn't.

What North Korea agreed to, in writing, was to "work towards complete denucliarization of the Korean Peninsula".

To those of you new to the diplomatic lingo in general and North Korean negotiations in particular, let me translate:

1. "Agreed to work towards" is not the same as "agreed to do something". In particular, it doesn't specify North Korea doing anything in particular to any particular part of its nuclear program.

2. "Complete denucliarization (of the Korean Peninsula)" doesn't mean what you think it does. Basically, it implies US troops recall and pulling the US nuclear shield from South Korea.

So what you have is a piece of paper essentially stating that if the United States goes home, Korea  may start destroying something at their own pace and without a specified mechanism of monitoring and control (not even a broad one). I'm sure the Chinese are ecstatic.

This might seem like conjecture to you, but we've already been there with North Korea, and that's exactly how it panned out.

I agree with you it seems like a whole lot of nothing. The G7 was the more important meeting.

Trump gave up the war games. What did North Korea give up?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 02:32:29 PM by liam »

Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #54 on: June 12, 2018, 03:34:44 PM »

Offline greece666

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Ppl in the DPRK supposedly already live in hell, how exactly did the meeting make things worse.
Honest question, Fan from VT, Kozlo, or anyone else I'm curious about your answers.
All you need to know is in this article from the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/12/trump-nuclear-north-korea-kim-jong-un?CMP=fb_gu

I learned nothing from this article, and quite frankly I much prefer reading you than Freedland.
Leaving aside the fact that all you got out of this meeting is a carefully worded committal that doesn't really commit to anything, you've fed North Korean state propaganda visuals they can live on for decades.

I'm not particularly sure what's unclear about giving a tyrannical government the opportunity to rave about being worthy of sitting at the same table with the US President as equals. You've essentially made it easier for a bunch of horrible people to stay in power an keep an entire country subdued.

Thanks for the reply Kozlodoev. Apparently we disagree on almost everything on this issue, but the reply is appreciated.

Anyway, in an imaginary world where we could dictate US foreign policy, what would you like to see? More US help for the Republic of Korea, a harder stance towards the DPRK or what?


Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #55 on: June 12, 2018, 03:46:07 PM »

Offline BringToughnessBack

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De-escalating a nuclear threat and agreeing to get rid of nuclaear aspirations and weapons sure doesnt seem like a bad direction to go into. Would a nuclear war been better or maybe continue to enable them like previous administrations both Democrat and Republican so he continues to amass an arsenal to be used on future generations?

Yes, we all know of what the news has reported about NK government actions towards their people but talking is never a bad way to go.

I grew up in Northeast so before anyone labels me one or the other(independent actually)/ Trump has done a good job getting NK to the table and in the end, we will judge this by the lack of nuclear threat and NK people moving out of utter starvation and poverty- sounds like a good path to me- The previous direction was that of an enabler- We stood by and watched him build missile after missile- that was a highway to hell for sure-

As far as Iran goes, they will be able to build nuclear weapons down the road when restrictions ease- That to me seems like a bad idea when their ideology is the removal an entire people from existence-

If Palestinians wanted true peace, they would recognize Israel’s right to exist and stop Hamas from launching attacks- If the US were getting attacked on the border from Mexico daily, what do you think our country would be doing in response?  Cannot have peace until terrorist groups like Hamas and Iran are stopped- Obama through Israel under the bus at the end as he sulked about lost election-




Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #56 on: June 12, 2018, 03:46:38 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Trump gave up the war games. What did North Korea give up?

The best thing about the summit is seeing so many progressives crying about us not showing off our military strength enough.

What good do the war games do? What purpose do they serve, other than a thumb in the eye to North Korea? Basically, they’re a preparation for skirmishes that would never happen. It’s 1 million troops against what, 50,000? No amount of “games” are going to even those odds.

You win a war against North Korea by never having one in the first place.


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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #57 on: June 12, 2018, 03:56:27 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Trump gave up the war games. What did North Korea give up?

The best thing about the summit is seeing so many progressives crying about us not showing off our military strength enough.

What good do the war games do? What purpose do they serve, other than a thumb in the eye to North Korea? Basically, they’re a preparation for skirmishes that would never happen. It’s 1 million troops against what, 50,000? No amount of “games” are going to even those odds.

You win a war against North Korea by never having one in the first place.
No-one here is concerned about showing off our military might. Many, however, are concerned about blindsiding our allies and hanging them out to dry.

Strawman much?
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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #58 on: June 12, 2018, 03:58:30 PM »

Offline liam

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Trump gave up the war games. What did North Korea give up?

The best thing about the summit is seeing so many progressives crying about us not showing off our military strength enough.

What good do the war games do? What purpose do they serve, other than a thumb in the eye to North Korea? Basically, they’re a preparation for skirmishes that would never happen. It’s 1 million troops against what, 50,000? No amount of “games” are going to even those odds.

You win a war against North Korea by never having one in the first place.

I'm not sure what a progressive is. I don't want to show off military strength. The US spends more on the military than the rest of the world. No need to show off. My point was that if you are negotiating, especially if you are the best negotiator,  you get something when you give up something.

Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #59 on: June 12, 2018, 04:04:24 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Trump gave up the war games. What did North Korea give up?

The best thing about the summit is seeing so many progressives crying about us not showing off our military strength enough.

What good do the war games do? What purpose do they serve, other than a thumb in the eye to North Korea? Basically, they’re a preparation for skirmishes that would never happen. It’s 1 million troops against what, 50,000? No amount of “games” are going to even those odds.

You win a war against North Korea by never having one in the first place.

I'm not sure what a progressive is. I don't want to show off military strength. The US spends more on the military than the rest of the world. No need to show off. My point was that if you are negotiating, especially if you are the best negotiator,  you get something when you give up something.
The US wanted "complete, irreversible, and verifiable denuclearization of North Korea" (Trump administration words, not mine). Notice what's missing from the declaration? That's right, "irreversible", "verifiable", and "North". Well done.
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