Author Topic: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)  (Read 2700 times)

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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2018, 11:19:28 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Yeah, I really just don't see the terrible downside. Worst case is we end up back where we were. According to alarmists a couple of months ago, the worst case scenario was nuclear war with N. Korea. Aren't we moving in the right direction here?
I don't think you fully understand the value that a meeting with the US President has, both for the purpose of international and domestic politics.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 11:25:39 AM by kozlodoev »
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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2018, 11:27:56 AM »

Offline gift

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Yeah, I really just don't see the terrible downside. Worst case is we end up back where we were. According to alarmists a couple of months ago, the worst case scenario was nuclear war with N. Korea. Aren't we moving in the right direction here?
I don't think you understand very well the value that a meeting with the US President has, both for the purpose of international and domestic politics.

Or perhaps I'm not overvaluing it either. The media makes a big deal out of a meeting so a meeting becomes a big deal. Trump can totally screw this up. But the meeting alone isn't so terrible. Perhaps you are projecting your expectations of Trump on what has already taken place. I'd agree, I don't have a lot of confidence in him. But I'm not jumping at every little move of his hand.

Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2018, 11:28:26 AM »

Offline greece666

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Ppl in the DPRK supposedly already live in hell, how exactly did the meeting make things worse.
Honest question, Fan from VT, Kozlo, or anyone else I'm curious about your answers.
All you need to know is in this article from the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/12/trump-nuclear-north-korea-kim-jong-un?CMP=fb_gu

I learned nothing from this article, and quite frankly I much prefer reading you than Freedland.

Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2018, 11:35:58 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Ppl in the DPRK supposedly already live in hell, how exactly did the meeting make things worse.
Honest question, Fan from VT, Kozlo, or anyone else I'm curious about your answers.
All you need to know is in this article from the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/12/trump-nuclear-north-korea-kim-jong-un?CMP=fb_gu

I learned nothing from this article, and quite frankly I much prefer reading you than Freedland.
Leaving aside the fact that all you got out of this meeting is a carefully worded committal that doesn't really commit to anything, you've fed North Korean state propaganda visuals they can live on for decades.

I'm not particularly sure what's unclear about giving a tyrannical government the opportunity to rave about being worthy of sitting at the same table with the US President as equals. You've essentially made it easier for a bunch of horrible people to stay in power an keep an entire country subdued.
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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2018, 11:42:59 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Yeah, I really just don't see the terrible downside. Worst case is we end up back where we were. According to alarmists a couple of months ago, the worst case scenario was nuclear war with N. Korea. Aren't we moving in the right direction here?
I don't think you understand very well the value that a meeting with the US President has, both for the purpose of international and domestic politics.

Or perhaps I'm not overvaluing it either. The media makes a big deal out of a meeting so a meeting becomes a big deal. Trump can totally screw this up. But the meeting alone isn't so terrible. Perhaps you are projecting your expectations of Trump on what has already taken place. I'd agree, I don't have a lot of confidence in him. But I'm not jumping at every little move of his hand.
Yeah, that's a real thing if by "media" you mean the "North Korean state-run media". That's absolutely a big deal to them, as it should be. Not only does it allow them to tell their people, "We were right all along", but it also gives them plenty of imagery to help prop their regime in place.

To claim that this doesn't matter is either naive or ignorant of decades of diplomacy (on this particular issue and in general). But then again, naive and/or ignorant of anything that doesn't have dollar signs attached to it seems to be the name of the game these days.
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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2018, 11:46:34 AM »

Offline gift

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Ppl in the DPRK supposedly already live in hell, how exactly did the meeting make things worse.
Honest question, Fan from VT, Kozlo, or anyone else I'm curious about your answers.
All you need to know is in this article from the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/12/trump-nuclear-north-korea-kim-jong-un?CMP=fb_gu

I learned nothing from this article, and quite frankly I much prefer reading you than Freedland.
Leaving aside the fact that all you got out of this meeting is a carefully worded committal that doesn't really commit to anything, you've fed North Korean state propaganda visuals they can live on for decades.

I'm not particularly sure what's unclear about giving a tyrannical government the opportunity to rave about being worthy of sitting at the same table with the US President as equals. You've essentially made it easier for a bunch of horrible people to stay in power an keep an entire country subdued.

That part of your argument just doesn't hold up. You're not being consistent.

N. Korea does not need (or even want) legitimization from the US for internal control. They already control everything without any real resistance (on a state level).

The only legitimization that could come from this meeting is in other parts of the world. But as you've written, no one else was willing to meet with N. Korea before. You used that as proof that meeting with Kim was the wrong move.

Now, either Trump legitimizes Kim and others follow suit in softening their stance on N. Korea, or they continue to hold a hard line stance.

If they follow Trump, then the fact that they hadn't been meeting with Kim before is no longer supportive of the fact that it was a bad idea. It's just that they were following a major political power's lead in their stance. If they hold the line, then Trump has done nothing to legitimize the Kim regime around the world.

Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2018, 11:54:55 AM »

Offline gift

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Yeah, I really just don't see the terrible downside. Worst case is we end up back where we were. According to alarmists a couple of months ago, the worst case scenario was nuclear war with N. Korea. Aren't we moving in the right direction here?
I don't think you understand very well the value that a meeting with the US President has, both for the purpose of international and domestic politics.

Or perhaps I'm not overvaluing it either. The media makes a big deal out of a meeting so a meeting becomes a big deal. Trump can totally screw this up. But the meeting alone isn't so terrible. Perhaps you are projecting your expectations of Trump on what has already taken place. I'd agree, I don't have a lot of confidence in him. But I'm not jumping at every little move of his hand.
Yeah, that's a real thing if by "media" you mean the "North Korean state-run media". That's absolutely a big deal to them, as it should be. Not only does it allow them to tell their people, "We were right all along", but it also gives them plenty of imagery to help prop their regime in place.

To claim that this doesn't matter is either naive or ignorant of decades of diplomacy (on this particular issue and in general). But then again, naive and/or ignorant of anything that doesn't have dollar signs attached to it seems to be the name of the game these days.

I don't think you fully appreciate that N. Korea doesn't need US diplomacy to maintain internal control.

I get that you are saying my statement is either naive or ignorant (I think you are just not considering other options, personally). But I'm curious what you mean by the "dollar signs" comment. Are you saying I am financially motivated in some way?

Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2018, 12:14:04 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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One thing is certain:  the status quo wasn't working.  North Korea has been a major threat since the Clinton administration, and yet nobody has been able to come up with an effective deterrent to nuclear proliferation. 

Even if the agreement is binding on us but not on North Korea (which I highly doubt), at worst the US has decided to suspend war games on the Korean border for awhile.  What's the problem?

And, as gift said, this idea that North Korea needed this to maintain control of their citizens really seems to be inaccurate.  North Korea has their population on lockdown more than perhaps any other country.  Dissent is close to unheard of.


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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #38 on: June 12, 2018, 12:32:39 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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N. Korea does not need (or even want) legitimization from the US for internal control. They already control everything without any real resistance (on a state level).
Of course they do. They've used the external threat rhetoric to keep society in check for years. This isn't about whether or not there is representative political opposition in the country.

You're deluding yourself if you think the state propaganda machine isn't going to take this and turn it into state propaganda about how the US is so afraid of North Korea's nukes that they're willing to meet with Kim, stop military exercises, and withdraw their nukes.

No need to make it easier for them to brainwash the general public.

The only legitimization that could come from this meeting is in other parts of the world. But as you've written, no one else was willing to meet with N. Korea before. You used that as proof that meeting with Kim was the wrong move.
If you think that the stance of the US President means so little to our allies and other countries in the world, I don't see how you can claim he's "Making America Great Again".

If they follow Trump, then the fact that they hadn't been meeting with Kim before is no longer supportive of the fact that it was a bad idea. It's just that they were following a major political power's lead in their stance. If they hold the line, then Trump has done nothing to legitimize the Kim regime around the world.
Context, as usual, is everything. The North Korean regime has been blackballed because they have committed to nuclear disarmament multiple times in the past just to back out after they've extracted some sort of gain. That's the reason why the other negotiating sides at the table were demanding actual verifiable progress first at this stage.
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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2018, 12:36:48 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I don't think you fully appreciate that N. Korea doesn't need US diplomacy to maintain internal control.
I don't think you fully appreciate the fact that pushing a certain narrative vis-a-vis the US is an important tool in avoiding internal resistance.
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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2018, 12:47:41 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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One thing is certain:  the status quo wasn't working.  North Korea has been a major threat since the Clinton administration, and yet nobody has been able to come up with an effective deterrent to nuclear proliferation. 
There's been rampant speculation that Kim's most recent pivot is largely due to the fact that their main nuclear test facility has collapsed and is unusable. But of course we'll never know that

Even if the agreement is binding on us but not on North Korea (which I highly doubt), at worst the US has decided to suspend war games on the Korean border for awhile.  What's the problem?
The problem is that it's all about appearances. It's about how this summit appears to the North Korean public. It's also about how it appears to our allies (Korea, by the way, was totally not informed that we were planning to pull the plug on the joint military exercises). In broad terms, it's about the United States being eager to suck up to all sorts of garden variety tyrants and throw allies under the bus. We're flushing decades' worth of goodwill down the toilet right now. Do you think the other sides to the Iran nuclear deal are looking at this and saying, "What a GREAT first step, was totally worth bending over backwards to Kim for this. It's not like they have made vague promises and failed to deliver before".

And, as gift said, this idea that North Korea needed this to maintain control of their citizens really seems to be inaccurate.  North Korea has their population on lockdown more than perhaps any other country.  Dissent is close to unheard of.
The idea that you don't have to worry about internal resistance just because you have the population on lockdown is nothing short of hilarious. And part of the reason why dissent is close to unheard of is because the population is on a steady diet of state-curated information about the outside world. Not only did you get no concession of this -- but you also gave the NK state enough imagery to keep feeding their people crap for years to come.
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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2018, 12:59:40 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Quote
In broad terms, it's about the United States being eager to suck up to all sorts of garden variety tyrants and throw allies under the bus. We're flushing decades' worth of goodwill down the toilet right now.

I'm curious, did you feel the same way when Obama threw Israel under the bus repeatedly?  I wouldn't worry too much about South Korea's goodwill, since they depend upon us almost exclusively for military defense.  They'll get in line, or they'll put their security at risk.

Quote
And part of the reason why dissent is close to unheard of is because the population is on a steady diet of state-curated information about the outside world.

And, they would be fed a steady diet of state-curated information without this summit.  The population at large thinks that their ruler is a deity.  Would that change if we refused to meet with Kim?


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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2018, 01:02:14 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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I agree with Koz on this. We gave North Korea what they wanted and more, threw our ally South Korea under the bus, and got nothing in return except the same vague promises North Korea has been peddling and backpedaling from for years.

This wouldn’t happen if our president wasn’t more concerned with his immediate public image to his voter base and future business prospects than the long term safety and security of our country and the world.

Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2018, 01:05:51 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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We gave North Korea what they wanted and more

What did we give them?  A sit down?

That's about the only thing that's binding here.  Six months ago people were gnashing their teeth about nuclear war.  Now, we seem further away from that, but people are convinced that it's a bad thing.

And, we didn't throw South Korea under the bus.  We still have tens of thousands of troops in South Korea, and their President supported the talks and joint statement:

Quote
In Seoul, President Moon Jae-in of South Korea hailed Mr. Trump’s summit meeting with the North Korean leader, Kim Jong-un. Mr. Moon called the joint statement that was released after the meeting “a historic event that has helped break down the last remaining Cold War legacy on earth.”


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Re: Kim-Trump Summit (no, not THAT Kim)
« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2018, 01:06:24 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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Quote
In broad terms, it's about the United States being eager to suck up to all sorts of garden variety tyrants and throw allies under the bus. We're flushing decades' worth of goodwill down the toilet right now.

I'm curious, did you feel the same way when Obama threw Israel under the bus repeatedly?  I wouldn't worry too much about South Korea's goodwill, since they depend upon us almost exclusively for military defense.  They'll get in line, or they'll put their security at risk.

Quote
And part of the reason why dissent is close to unheard of is because the population is on a steady diet of state-curated information about the outside world.

And, they would be fed a steady diet of state-curated information without this summit.  The population at large thinks that their ruler is a deity.  Would that change if we refused to meet with Kim?

Curtailing blind support for Israel for the sake of any reasonable peace agreement, while Israeli is killing innocent civilians and continuing to invade Palestinian Territories is far from throwing them under the bus.

What Trump has done with Middle East policy has set back any chance of peace for decades.