Poll

Should trans boy athletes be allowed to compete with girls in high school sports

Yes
4 (10%)
No
36 (90%)

Total Members Voted: 40

Author Topic: Should trans boy athletes be allowed to compete with girls in high school sports  (Read 1588 times)

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Offline Fan from VT

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Mentally ill boys pretending to be girls should absolutely not be participating with girls. Boys and girls have different bone structures, different muscles. It's insane to talk about hormone treatments and the like for children, who have no grasp of what they're doing to their young bodies.

All we're accomplishing with patronizing a boy or girl and allowing them to pretend they're something else is destroying a young life.

It's sick and it's evil.
Jesus Christ, please do some research before you post about such an important and difficult subject. You obviously know absolutely nothing about what it means to be transgender. You sound like an uneducated, ignorant savage.

I think that it’s a legitimate viewpoint to consider this mental illness. That’s how the DSM viewed it for decades, and there is a distinct link between trauma / abuse and transgenderism.
No. The people who think that being transgender is a mental illness are usually talking about gender dysphoria. That is the feeling that one's identity as male or female is the opposite to one's biological sex.

If that is your viewpoint, that's fine. But if you're going to say that someone has a mental illness, why is the solution to not treat that mental illness? Referencing mental illness and then forcing someone to identify as their biological sex, which is the cause of the mental illness you just brought up, makes absolutely no sense and is simply hypocritical.

I hope you understand this, I have discussed topics with you before and know you are more than civil. Not the other poster, though.

I'm always happy to hear another viewpoint, and to be educated.  I don't think transgenders are evil.  Jenny (Jim) Boylan was one of my professors, and I ate dinner in the Boylan home multiple times.  The Boylans are lovely people, and I would never describe her (I'll use Jenny's chosen pronoun) as evil.  I remember distinctly flipping through television channels and seeing a post-transition Jenny on Larry King, and immediately reaching out.  So, there's no hatred in my heart.

But, to me, it's a complicated issue.  I appreciate the comment above about how the best outcome for transgenders is aligned with living with their preferred gender.  Maybe that's the answer, even if this is in many cases a mental illness.  But, I do think there are some interesting questions. 

For instance, in many cases, people can achieve better outcomes related to self-esteem through cosmetic surgery.  Yet, ethics in the field suggest that it's often best to wait until somebody is fully developed before performing (elective) cosmetic surgeries.  Yet, it seems like there are fewer road blocks placed on hormone treatment and reassignment surgery.  Why?  With a teenage mind that is in flux, is it really the best time to permanently alter somebody's body?

And, does an emphasis on surgery and hormone treatments make it less likely that this will be treated as a mental illness?  Will it be politically incorrect to even research medications / treatments that are based upon the idea that transgenders are ill? 

There are mental illnesses that cause people to mutilate their bodies, that cause them to think that their limbs should be amputated.  Why is that a mental illness, but the idea of replacing one's genitalia is considered normal?  Would it be responsible for a doctor to amputate a client's arms because their client's mind was convinced that was in their best interest?

I think it's all interesting, and complicated.  I do wonder if our society is heading down the right path here.  I question whether science has been replaced by social justice, and whether that's a good thing. But, again, it's above my pay grade, because I have no idea what the best outcomes will be, or whether the distinction between mental illness and genetics is one that makes a huge difference in the long run.  Until there's something definitive, I'll be in parts confused, tolerant, squeamish, and open-minded.

In this case, and similar ones (homosexuality, etc), it is actually the Conservative SJWs that reliably deny they science and stick to their agenda. In this case, the "Social Justice" as you say (pejoratively? dog whistlingly?) is supported by and runs parallel to available science.

Homosexuality and transgenderism are not the same.

As I understand it, homosexuality has a genetic basis. Most cases of transgenderism don’t.  Rather, it’s a mental / identity affliction. 

Lol @ dog whistling. Too much MSNBC for you.

The science is still in its infancy, but transgender is strongly biologic/genetic. There are some rare hormone receptor variations that increase your odds, but most specifics are unknown. And i think its safe to say it is incredibly complex and not determined by a single thing, but it is interesting that in identical twins, if one is transgender, then 33% of the time the other is as well (way higher than baseline) but for non-identical twins, if one is transgender, the other is only 2% of the time. So, same family, same environment, but way higher odds if identical vs non-identical, indicating a strong biologic influence.

"Replaced by social justice" is an unnecessary phrase, intentionally loaded. Why even use it, especially when what you are saying is not true or not applicable to the current discussion? What you are trying to say, I think, is that science is replaced by an activist agenda, but using the broader pejorative "SJW" reference, and incorrectly positing them as opposing when regarding transgender topics rather than perhaps coincidental or even synergistic.

Offline kraidstar

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Mentally ill boys pretending to be girls should absolutely not be participating with girls. Boys and girls have different bone structures, different muscles. It's insane to talk about hormone treatments and the like for children, who have no grasp of what they're doing to their young bodies.

All we're accomplishing with patronizing a boy or girl and allowing them to pretend they're something else is destroying a young life.

It's sick and it's evil.
Jesus Christ, please do some research before you post about such an important and difficult subject. You obviously know absolutely nothing about what it means to be transgender. You sound like an uneducated, ignorant savage.

I think that it’s a legitimate viewpoint to consider this mental illness. That’s how the DSM viewed it for decades, and there is a distinct link between trauma / abuse and transgenderism.
No. The people who think that being transgender is a mental illness are usually talking about gender dysphoria. That is the feeling that one's identity as male or female is the opposite to one's biological sex.

If that is your viewpoint, that's fine. But if you're going to say that someone has a mental illness, why is the solution to not treat that mental illness? Referencing mental illness and then forcing someone to identify as their biological sex, which is the cause of the mental illness you just brought up, makes absolutely no sense and is simply hypocritical.

I hope you understand this, I have discussed topics with you before and know you are more than civil. Not the other poster, though.

I'm always happy to hear another viewpoint, and to be educated.  I don't think transgenders are evil.  Jenny (Jim) Boylan was one of my professors, and I ate dinner in the Boylan home multiple times.  The Boylans are lovely people, and I would never describe her (I'll use Jenny's chosen pronoun) as evil.  I remember distinctly flipping through television channels and seeing a post-transition Jenny on Larry King, and immediately reaching out.  So, there's no hatred in my heart.

But, to me, it's a complicated issue.  I appreciate the comment above about how the best outcome for transgenders is aligned with living with their preferred gender.  Maybe that's the answer, even if this is in many cases a mental illness.  But, I do think there are some interesting questions. 

For instance, in many cases, people can achieve better outcomes related to self-esteem through cosmetic surgery.  Yet, ethics in the field suggest that it's often best to wait until somebody is fully developed before performing (elective) cosmetic surgeries.  Yet, it seems like there are fewer road blocks placed on hormone treatment and reassignment surgery.  Why?  With a teenage mind that is in flux, is it really the best time to permanently alter somebody's body?

And, does an emphasis on surgery and hormone treatments make it less likely that this will be treated as a mental illness?  Will it be politically incorrect to even research medications / treatments that are based upon the idea that transgenders are ill? 

There are mental illnesses that cause people to mutilate their bodies, that cause them to think that their limbs should be amputated.  Why is that a mental illness, but the idea of replacing one's genitalia is considered normal?  Would it be responsible for a doctor to amputate a client's arms because their client's mind was convinced that was in their best interest?

I think it's all interesting, and complicated.  I do wonder if our society is heading down the right path here.  I question whether science has been replaced by social justice, and whether that's a good thing.  But, again, it's above my pay grade, because I have no idea what the best outcomes will be, or whether the distinction between mental illness and genetics is one that makes a huge difference in the long run.  Until there's something definitive, I'll be in parts confused, tolerant, squeamish, and open-minded.

This is fair. The situation is complicated, and not everyone is the same.

I have a female friend who at age 18 was going to get surgeries hormones etc to turn into a male. I had my doubts about this as she seemed fairly effeminate to me and was clearly suffering from emotional problems likely caused by emotional abuse by her parents.

She didn't have the money for the surgeries.

She became tight with some very good friends of mine - good people - and she reversed course and decided she was female after all, and has been happily dating a male friend for a couple years now. I think she hated herself and by extension hated her gender and wanted to change. Maybe she just needed to be loved?

My ex-GF's teenage daughter said a few months back she wanted to cut her breasts off and that she wanted to be male. I was alarmed by this as I'm very close to her and I don't believe she is male at all. But she has backtracked since.

There are situations where people clearly have legitimate gender identification issues. And there are others where someone might be young, depressed and/or confused. Or mentally ill. Thank god my friend didn't get that surgery.

Most times things will sort themselves out. Gender is genetic, but is also partially a social construct and, to an extent, has always had some fluidity to it. This isn't a bad thing, and people should do what makes them happy. Best thing we can do is to be patient and understanding. But we also need to be vigilant in letting young people know that they are YOUNG and should be careful of making drastic changes to their bodies. Surgery is serious business.

Offline KGs Knee

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I think the thing I find most interesting about this topic is how quickly this thread turned into a broader discussion on the morality/science behind gender assignment, along with the potential associated mental disorders that could be behind it.

I realize it's a very unresolved topic, and one that society has pushed aside and ignored for car too long. But none of that really answers the specific question posed by the OP.

I think in regards to the question posed by the OP, the guideline I would try to use would be is there a competitive advantage gained. I generally think people should be free to do with their bodies whatever they please (although I do think there exists some threshold where medical professionals have an obligation to refuse treatments that may be detrimental to the well being on a person), but there should be some sort of means of ensuring a level playing field in publicly funded athletics (professional sports leagues can do whatever they want - there exists no fundamental right to a level playing field).

Offline GratefulCs

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FYI trans boy means female to male
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Offline Celtics4ever

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I am an atheist so I don't have a moral bone to pick here.    The question to me is one of biology.  Can the surgery or hormone therapy guarantee that the individual has no edge in competition?   Then my answer is yes.  However, science says otherwise at present:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/99434993/professor-of-physiology-says-trans-athlete-has-advantage-in-speed-and-power

Since science says they have an edge, my answer is a definite "no'.   '

When did it become wrong to say "no" to people?  Political correctness, has taken us down some wacky roads and not all of them are good.   I have no problem with something choosing a gender and the like, to me it is absurd, but it their life and I have no control over their life, nor do I wish to have control.   That being said, I think tax dollars ought not to have to pay for this stuff.   I say, this as someone who is not a Christian.   As a veteran, I have zero problem with homosexuals and transgenders serving and I served with some homosexuals and they could soldier but I don't think Uncle Sam should have to pay for it.

Quote
Gender is genetic, but is also partially a social construct and, to an extent, has always had some fluidity to it.

No, gender is genetic.   Social based gender roles are social constructs and that is a big difference.   The science as what quantifies some one as a gender is based on chromosomes.   So as others have said it is a complex issue.

My answer is still a "no" based on the fact that physiologists say they have an athletic advantage. 

Offline Fan from VT

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I think the thing I find most interesting about this topic is how quickly this thread turned into a broader discussion on the morality/science behind gender assignment, along with the potential associated mental disorders that could be behind it.

I realize it's a very unresolved topic, and one that society has pushed aside and ignored for car too long. But none of that really answers the specific question posed by the OP.

I think in regards to the question posed by the OP, the guideline I would try to use would be is there a competitive advantage gained. I generally think people should be free to do with their bodies whatever they please (although I do think there exists some threshold where medical professionals have an obligation to refuse treatments that may be detrimental to the well being on a person), but there should be some sort of means of ensuring a level playing field in publicly funded athletics (professional sports leagues can do whatever they want - there exists no fundamental right to a level playing field).

And also safety, in potentially contact sports.

Offline Fan from VT

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I am an atheist so I don't have a moral bone to pick here.    The question to me is one of biology.  Can the surgery or hormone therapy guarantee that the individual has no edge in competition?   Then my answer is yes.  However, science says otherwise at present:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/99434993/professor-of-physiology-says-trans-athlete-has-advantage-in-speed-and-power

Since science says they have an edge, my answer is a definite "no'.   '

When did it become wrong to say "no" to people?  Political correctness, has taken us down some wacky roads and not all of them are good.   I have no problem with something choosing a gender and the like, to me it is absurd, but it their life and I have no control over their life, nor do I wish to have control.   That being said, I think tax dollars ought not to have to pay for this stuff.   I say, this as someone who is not a Christian.   As a veteran, I have zero problem with homosexuals and transgenders serving and I served with some homosexuals and they could soldier but I don't think Uncle Sam should have to pay for it.

Quote
Gender is genetic, but is also partially a social construct and, to an extent, has always had some fluidity to it.

No, gender is genetic.   Social based gender roles are social constructs and that is a big difference.   The science as what quantifies some one as a gender is based on chromosomes.   So as others have said it is a complex issue.

My answer is still a "no" based on the fact that physiologists say they have an athletic advantage.

Sex is biologic, though sometimes even that is complex and not binary. Gender is the combination of genetics, biology, hormones, cultural influences, family, friends, stuff we don't know. And gender is more than just clothes and stereotypical roles/professions; it also ties into social roles and relationships and self identification with your own physical body parts, which is when transgender becomes relevant.

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
Sex is biologic, though sometimes even that is complex and not binary. Gender is the combination of genetics, biology, hormones, cultural influences, family, friends, stuff we don't know. And gender is more than just clothes and stereotypical roles/professions; it also ties into social roles and relationships and self identification with your own physical body parts, which is when transgender becomes relevant.

Doesn't arrangement of chromosomes dictate gender?   That is both genetic and biological.


Offline Fan from VT

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Quote
Sex is biologic, though sometimes even that is complex and not binary. Gender is the combination of genetics, biology, hormones, cultural influences, family, friends, stuff we don't know. And gender is more than just clothes and stereotypical roles/professions; it also ties into social roles and relationships and self identification with your own physical body parts, which is when transgender becomes relevant.

Doesn't arrangement of chromosomes dictate gender?   That is both genetic and biological.

No. Chromosomes, in the absence of hormone defects (either production of hormones or hormone receptors), chromosomal abnormalities, accidents in uterine decelopment, etc, determine was is seen in terms of newborn genitalia. And again, barring other complex developmental or hormonal issues, also determines the secondary changes (deepening voice, facial hair, breast tissue, menstruation, etc) will happen with puberty.

Gender is more variable and has more degrees; you can be drawn toward non-typical gendered work or dress for your society, or, in the case of transgender, your brain could be set in telling you that you are the gender that is opposite of your biologic sex. If you have this feeling and it exists consistently through the beginning of puberty, it essentially does not change (less than 2% of such people “regret” transitioning.


Online Roy H.

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Quote
it exists consistently through the beginning of puberty, it essentially does not change (less than 2% of such people “regret” transitioning.

As I understand it, the 2% is immediately following surgery.  Other studies have found worse results:

Quote
Research from the US and Holland suggests that up to a fifth of patients regret changing sex. A 1998 review by the Research and Development Directorate of the NHS Executive found attempted suicide rates of up to 18% noted in some medical studies of gender reassignment.

I think it’s a bit more complex than presented.


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Offline Neurotic Guy

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Quote
it exists consistently through the beginning of puberty, it essentially does not change (less than 2% of such people “regret” transitioning.

As I understand it, the 2% is immediately following surgery.  Other studies have found worse results:

Quote
Research from the US and Holland suggests that up to a fifth of patients regret changing sex. A 1998 review by the Research and Development Directorate of the NHS Executive found attempted suicide rates of up to 18% noted in some medical studies of gender reassignment.


I think it’s a bit more complex than presented.


Part of the complexity might be the never-known regret of the same person had they not formally transitioned.   Put another way, gender-confusion and depression are possibly co-morbid in some cases.  It's probable that many who decide not to transition regret that decision. Once a person does transition and regrets it we would never know if they would have been equally regretful had they not transitioned.  And...maybe regret for some is more a function of depression than anything else (rather than a mistaken transition).

Online Csfan1984

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I say let them they are just kids. If they were grown pro athletes I'd argue no if its a guy because being a guy is like a woman on steroids thats not allowed when $ is on the line. If a woman wants to play with men then it's on her and a team to clear her for play. Basically I don't care just want things fun and competitive.
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Offline Fan from VT

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Quote
it exists consistently through the beginning of puberty, it essentially does not change (less than 2% of such people “regret” transitioning.

As I understand it, the 2% is immediately following surgery.  Other studies have found worse results:

Quote
Research from the US and Holland suggests that up to a fifth of patients regret changing sex. A 1998 review by the Research and Development Directorate of the NHS Executive found attempted suicide rates of up to 18% noted in some medical studies of gender reassignment.

I think it’s a bit more complex than presented.

I think that paragraph is from The Guardian? If so, that is a terrible article with a very misleading headline. Couple of problems with the cited paragraph. First, it says “research suggests...up to a fifth of patients regret...”.  Of course, they didnt cite a study. What this means is that the agency that did the research for the guardian looked at a few studies, and based most of their conclusions on a re iee from 1990, and at least 1 of the studies mentioned a regret rate of 20%. The article did not mention the other studies that find much better results. The studies i find are specifically with regards to post-surgical satisfaction, typically 6-12 months after surgery, with generally 0-3% regret. You also have to be careful of what is being studied. Some studies look at “satisfaction” and find 80% satisfaction. But that does mot mean 20% regret it; in those studies you get the same 0-3 % regret, and most of the “dissatisfaction” is related to wishing the putcomes were better, not that they were undone. Similarly, the second part of “suicide rates of up to 18%” is an incredibly misleading number presented without context. First, again, it is “up to” meaning they found the highest rate quoted in a single study and went with that. In the studies looking at suicide specifically, the rate goes from 25-30% pre op down to 5-8% post op. Second, getting surgery them committing suicide does not imply you regretted the surgery, as there are many things that influence suicide. Look at howteansgender people are talked about and treated in a lot of the mainstream. That doesnt stop post op; you still jave to worryabout bigotry, bathrooms, etc.

Offline eja117

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I'm mildly disappointed how this became a thread about transgenderism in society instead of sports but it is what it is. I feel like that's a different topic/thread. Possibly a very interesting one.

It seems to me like on some level the parents aren't really exactly trying to stop transgenderism in sports but rather gender fluidity where the kid is a boy in winter, and then a girl in spring, and then a boy again.  Considering how overwhelming the results of this poll are (way more than I expected) I suppose that poll would be even more overwhelming.

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Wow -- what an interesting read this thread has been.  TPs for Fan from VT, Eja for starting the thread, and to Bucketgetter for standing up to what I think was an overly harsh take from ETNCeltics.

I don't think people should ever be belittled for compassion ("faux compassion") -- I've had the experience of working with a gender dysphoric youth and have had the experience of having a good friend whose child (now well-adjusted adult) successfully transitioned (female to male).   I'm not sure it is possible for someone to have known these people (really known them) and have not felt compassion.   Being tough is all the rage and is clearly valuable in some cirumstances -- but not in this case.