Poll

Should trans boy athletes be allowed to compete with girls in high school sports

Yes
4 (10%)
No
36 (90%)

Total Members Voted: 40

Author Topic: Should trans boy athletes be allowed to compete with girls in high school sports  (Read 1589 times)

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Offline Fan from VT

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Conservatively, meaning noticeable at birth, about 1:2000 people are born with ambiguous genitalia.

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Mentally ill boys pretending to be girls should absolutely not be participating with girls. Boys and girls have different bone structures, different muscles. It's insane to talk about hormone treatments and the like for children, who have no grasp of what they're doing to their young bodies.

All we're accomplishing with patronizing a boy or girl and allowing them to pretend they're something else is destroying a young life.

It's sick and it's evil.
Jesus Christ, please do some research before you post about such an important and difficult subject. You obviously know absolutely nothing about what it means to be transgender. You sound like an uneducated, ignorant savage.

Given that your first instinct is to blaspheme, I'll take you calling me a savage as a compliment. You've chosen to placate the mentally ill by patting them on the head and telling them their delusion is reasonable. I choose to call a spade a spade. Putting a dress on a man doesn't make a man a woman, whether he takes the insane step of cutting off his penis and taking hormones, or not. Nothing in this universe will make Bruce Jenner a woman.

I don't know anything about what it means to be "transgender" (neither do you) because there is no such thing. It's impossible for any man - or woman - to know what it means, just as they don't know what it means to be a dog or a cat.

Research? Chromosomes don't lie. You and your sort have decided to replace simple science with irrational politics and faux compassion.

It is clearly you who is choosing to ignore science.

This argument is the most easily refutable. There is much more than XX and XY. There is XXY. XYY. XXX. XXXX. XO. And more. Even more, there is XX with inherited adrenal changes such that you are born with a clitoris that looks like a penis. Used to be, they'd just cut it off, but such people had incredibly high rates of dissatisfaction later on, so they've have moved away from default cutting. Then there are XY people who are born without testosterone receptors, so they look indistinguishable from women (they have breasts, vaginas, no signs of male appearance even after puberty, but they lack a uterus).

Additionally, the sense of feeling a different gender than the one that your genitalia would suggest, if it persists into puberty, almost never goes away (less than 2 %). This is the science.

Offline Bucketgetter

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Mentally ill boys pretending to be girls should absolutely not be participating with girls. Boys and girls have different bone structures, different muscles. It's insane to talk about hormone treatments and the like for children, who have no grasp of what they're doing to their young bodies.

All we're accomplishing with patronizing a boy or girl and allowing them to pretend they're something else is destroying a young life.

It's sick and it's evil.
Jesus Christ, please do some research before you post about such an important and difficult subject. You obviously know absolutely nothing about what it means to be transgender. You sound like an uneducated, ignorant savage.

Given that your first instinct is to blaspheme, I'll take you calling me a savage as a compliment. You've chosen to placate the mentally ill by patting them on the head and telling them their delusion is reasonable. I choose to call a spade a spade. Putting a dress on a man doesn't make a man a woman, whether he takes the insane step of cutting off his penis and taking hormones, or not. Nothing in this universe will make Bruce Jenner a woman.

I don't know anything about what it means to be "transgender" (neither do you) because there is no such thing. It's impossible for any man - or woman - to know what it means, just as they don't know what it means to be a dog or a cat.

Research? Chromosomes don't lie. You and your sort have decided to replace simple science with irrational politics and faux compassion.
Please educate yourself. I won't have an argument with someone who knows absolutely nothing about a topic they are so strongly against. Come back when you have a little more knowledge on the subject, and a little less prejudice. Thanks.
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Offline gift

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Mentally ill boys pretending to be girls should absolutely not be participating with girls. Boys and girls have different bone structures, different muscles. It's insane to talk about hormone treatments and the like for children, who have no grasp of what they're doing to their young bodies.

All we're accomplishing with patronizing a boy or girl and allowing them to pretend they're something else is destroying a young life.

It's sick and it's evil.
Jesus Christ, please do some research before you post about such an important and difficult subject. You obviously know absolutely nothing about what it means to be transgender. You sound like an uneducated, ignorant savage.

Given that your first instinct is to blaspheme, I'll take you calling me a savage as a compliment. You've chosen to placate the mentally ill by patting them on the head and telling them their delusion is reasonable. I choose to call a spade a spade. Putting a dress on a man doesn't make a man a woman, whether he takes the insane step of cutting off his penis and taking hormones, or not. Nothing in this universe will make Bruce Jenner a woman.

I don't know anything about what it means to be "transgender" (neither do you) because there is no such thing. It's impossible for any man - or woman - to know what it means, just as they don't know what it means to be a dog or a cat.

Research? Chromosomes don't lie. You and your sort have decided to replace simple science with irrational politics and faux compassion.

It is clearly you who is choosing to ignore science.

This argument is the most easily refutable. There is much more than XX and XY. There is XXY. XYY. XXX. XXXX. XO. And more. Even more, there is XX with inherited adrenal changes such that you are born with a clitoris that looks like a penis. Used to be, they'd just cut it off, but such people had incredibly high rates of dissatisfaction later on, so they've have moved away from default cutting. Then there are XY people who are born without testosterone receptors, so they look indistinguishable from women (they have breasts, vaginas, no signs of male appearance even after puberty, but they lack a uterus).

Additionally, the sense of feeling a different gender than the one that your genitalia would suggest, if it persists into puberty, almost never goes away (less than 2 %). This is the science.

Just to be precise, though, not all of those combinations occur in humans and some, like XXXX, are still considered female, but with chromosome disorder.

Offline Bucketgetter

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Mentally ill boys pretending to be girls should absolutely not be participating with girls. Boys and girls have different bone structures, different muscles. It's insane to talk about hormone treatments and the like for children, who have no grasp of what they're doing to their young bodies.

All we're accomplishing with patronizing a boy or girl and allowing them to pretend they're something else is destroying a young life.

It's sick and it's evil.
Jesus Christ, please do some research before you post about such an important and difficult subject. You obviously know absolutely nothing about what it means to be transgender. You sound like an uneducated, ignorant savage.

Given that your first instinct is to blaspheme, I'll take you calling me a savage as a compliment. You've chosen to placate the mentally ill by patting them on the head and telling them their delusion is reasonable. I choose to call a spade a spade. Putting a dress on a man doesn't make a man a woman, whether he takes the insane step of cutting off his penis and taking hormones, or not. Nothing in this universe will make Bruce Jenner a woman.

I don't know anything about what it means to be "transgender" (neither do you) because there is no such thing. It's impossible for any man - or woman - to know what it means, just as they don't know what it means to be a dog or a cat.

Research? Chromosomes don't lie. You and your sort have decided to replace simple science with irrational politics and faux compassion.

It is clearly you who is choosing to ignore science.

This argument is the most easily refutable. There is much more than XX and XY. There is XXY. XYY. XXX. XXXX. XO. And more. Even more, there is XX with inherited adrenal changes such that you are born with a clitoris that looks like a penis. Used to be, they'd just cut it off, but such people had incredibly high rates of dissatisfaction later on, so they've have moved away from default cutting. Then there are XY people who are born without testosterone receptors, so they look indistinguishable from women (they have breasts, vaginas, no signs of male appearance even after puberty, but they lack a uterus).

Additionally, the sense of feeling a different gender than the one that your genitalia would suggest, if it persists into puberty, almost never goes away (less than 2 %). This is the science.
Don't even give him the time of day. If he really wants to learn about what it means to be transgender, he can do that on his own. Right now he just wants to argue and be incredibly disrespectful, not to mention flat out wrong.

TP for the post btw, I was beginning to think I was the only one here with that kind of viewpoint.
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Kemba Walker / Tyus Jones / Aaron Brooks
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Offline Fan from VT

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Mentally ill boys pretending to be girls should absolutely not be participating with girls. Boys and girls have different bone structures, different muscles. It's insane to talk about hormone treatments and the like for children, who have no grasp of what they're doing to their young bodies.

All we're accomplishing with patronizing a boy or girl and allowing them to pretend they're something else is destroying a young life.

It's sick and it's evil.
Jesus Christ, please do some research before you post about such an important and difficult subject. You obviously know absolutely nothing about what it means to be transgender. You sound like an uneducated, ignorant savage.

Given that your first instinct is to blaspheme, I'll take you calling me a savage as a compliment. You've chosen to placate the mentally ill by patting them on the head and telling them their delusion is reasonable. I choose to call a spade a spade. Putting a dress on a man doesn't make a man a woman, whether he takes the insane step of cutting off his penis and taking hormones, or not. Nothing in this universe will make Bruce Jenner a woman.

I don't know anything about what it means to be "transgender" (neither do you) because there is no such thing. It's impossible for any man - or woman - to know what it means, just as they don't know what it means to be a dog or a cat.

Research? Chromosomes don't lie. You and your sort have decided to replace simple science with irrational politics and faux compassion.

It is clearly you who is choosing to ignore science.

This argument is the most easily refutable. There is much more than XX and XY. There is XXY. XYY. XXX. XXXX. XO. And more. Even more, there is XX with inherited adrenal changes such that you are born with a clitoris that looks like a penis. Used to be, they'd just cut it off, but such people had incredibly high rates of dissatisfaction later on, so they've have moved away from default cutting. Then there are XY people who are born without testosterone receptors, so they look indistinguishable from women (they have breasts, vaginas, no signs of male appearance even after puberty, but they lack a uterus).

Additionally, the sense of feeling a different gender than the one that your genitalia would suggest, if it persists into puberty, almost never goes away (less than 2 %). This is the science.

Just to be precise, though, not all of those combinations occur in humans and some, like XXXX, are still considered female, but with chromosome disorder.

These all occur in humans.

Offline gift

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Mentally ill boys pretending to be girls should absolutely not be participating with girls. Boys and girls have different bone structures, different muscles. It's insane to talk about hormone treatments and the like for children, who have no grasp of what they're doing to their young bodies.

All we're accomplishing with patronizing a boy or girl and allowing them to pretend they're something else is destroying a young life.

It's sick and it's evil.
Jesus Christ, please do some research before you post about such an important and difficult subject. You obviously know absolutely nothing about what it means to be transgender. You sound like an uneducated, ignorant savage.

Given that your first instinct is to blaspheme, I'll take you calling me a savage as a compliment. You've chosen to placate the mentally ill by patting them on the head and telling them their delusion is reasonable. I choose to call a spade a spade. Putting a dress on a man doesn't make a man a woman, whether he takes the insane step of cutting off his penis and taking hormones, or not. Nothing in this universe will make Bruce Jenner a woman.

I don't know anything about what it means to be "transgender" (neither do you) because there is no such thing. It's impossible for any man - or woman - to know what it means, just as they don't know what it means to be a dog or a cat.

Research? Chromosomes don't lie. You and your sort have decided to replace simple science with irrational politics and faux compassion.

It is clearly you who is choosing to ignore science.

This argument is the most easily refutable. There is much more than XX and XY. There is XXY. XYY. XXX. XXXX. XO. And more. Even more, there is XX with inherited adrenal changes such that you are born with a clitoris that looks like a penis. Used to be, they'd just cut it off, but such people had incredibly high rates of dissatisfaction later on, so they've have moved away from default cutting. Then there are XY people who are born without testosterone receptors, so they look indistinguishable from women (they have breasts, vaginas, no signs of male appearance even after puberty, but they lack a uterus).

Additionally, the sense of feeling a different gender than the one that your genitalia would suggest, if it persists into puberty, almost never goes away (less than 2 %). This is the science.

Just to be precise, though, not all of those combinations occur in humans and some, like XXXX, are still considered female, but with chromosome disorder.

These all occur in humans.

Yeah sorry, not all chromosomal disorders occur in humans is what I meant.

Offline Bucketgetter

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Mentally ill boys pretending to be girls should absolutely not be participating with girls. Boys and girls have different bone structures, different muscles. It's insane to talk about hormone treatments and the like for children, who have no grasp of what they're doing to their young bodies.

All we're accomplishing with patronizing a boy or girl and allowing them to pretend they're something else is destroying a young life.

It's sick and it's evil.
Jesus Christ, please do some research before you post about such an important and difficult subject. You obviously know absolutely nothing about what it means to be transgender. You sound like an uneducated, ignorant savage.

I think that itís a legitimate viewpoint to consider this mental illness. Thatís how the DSM viewed it for decades, and there is a distinct link between trauma / abuse and transgenderism.
No. The people who think that being transgender is a mental illness are usually talking about gender dysphoria. That is the feeling that one's identity as male or female is the opposite to one's biological sex.

If that is your viewpoint, that's fine. But if you're going to say that someone has a mental illness, why is the solution to not treat that mental illness? Referencing mental illness and then forcing someone to identify as their biological sex, which is the cause of the mental illness you just brought up, makes absolutely no sense and is simply hypocritical.

I hope you understand this, I have discussed topics with you before and know you are more than civil. Not the other poster, though.
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Kemba Walker / Tyus Jones / Aaron Brooks
Jimmy Butler / Jamal Crawford / Treveon Graham
Rodney Hood / Nic Batum / Marcus Georges Hunt
Taj Gibson / Nemanja Bjelica / Jonas Jerebko
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Online rondofan1255

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Assuming physical advantages donít diminish (?) because of transitioning, I vote no.


Offline Roy H.

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Mentally ill boys pretending to be girls should absolutely not be participating with girls. Boys and girls have different bone structures, different muscles. It's insane to talk about hormone treatments and the like for children, who have no grasp of what they're doing to their young bodies.

All we're accomplishing with patronizing a boy or girl and allowing them to pretend they're something else is destroying a young life.

It's sick and it's evil.
Jesus Christ, please do some research before you post about such an important and difficult subject. You obviously know absolutely nothing about what it means to be transgender. You sound like an uneducated, ignorant savage.

I think that itís a legitimate viewpoint to consider this mental illness. Thatís how the DSM viewed it for decades, and there is a distinct link between trauma / abuse and transgenderism.
No. The people who think that being transgender is a mental illness are usually talking about gender dysphoria. That is the feeling that one's identity as male or female is the opposite to one's biological sex.

If that is your viewpoint, that's fine. But if you're going to say that someone has a mental illness, why is the solution to not treat that mental illness? Referencing mental illness and then forcing someone to identify as their biological sex, which is the cause of the mental illness you just brought up, makes absolutely no sense and is simply hypocritical.

I hope you understand this, I have discussed topics with you before and know you are more than civil. Not the other poster, though.

I'm always happy to hear another viewpoint, and to be educated.  I don't think transgenders are evil.  Jenny (Jim) Boylan was one of my professors, and I ate dinner in the Boylan home multiple times.  The Boylans are lovely people, and I would never describe her (I'll use Jenny's chosen pronoun) as evil.  I remember distinctly flipping through television channels and seeing a post-transition Jenny on Larry King, and immediately reaching out.  So, there's no hatred in my heart.

But, to me, it's a complicated issue.  I appreciate the comment above about how the best outcome for transgenders is aligned with living with their preferred gender.  Maybe that's the answer, even if this is in many cases a mental illness.  But, I do think there are some interesting questions. 

For instance, in many cases, people can achieve better outcomes related to self-esteem through cosmetic surgery.  Yet, ethics in the field suggest that it's often best to wait until somebody is fully developed before performing (elective) cosmetic surgeries.  Yet, it seems like there are fewer road blocks placed on hormone treatment and reassignment surgery.  Why?  With a teenage mind that is in flux, is it really the best time to permanently alter somebody's body?

And, does an emphasis on surgery and hormone treatments make it less likely that this will be treated as a mental illness?  Will it be politically incorrect to even research medications / treatments that are based upon the idea that transgenders are ill? 

There are mental illnesses that cause people to mutilate their bodies, that cause them to think that their limbs should be amputated.  Why is that a mental illness, but the idea of replacing one's genitalia is considered normal?  Would it be responsible for a doctor to amputate a client's arms because their client's mind was convinced that was in their best interest?

I think it's all interesting, and complicated.  I do wonder if our society is heading down the right path here.  I question whether science has been replaced by social justice, and whether that's a good thing.  But, again, it's above my pay grade, because I have no idea what the best outcomes will be, or whether the distinction between mental illness and genetics is one that makes a huge difference in the long run.  Until there's something definitive, I'll be in parts confused, tolerant, squeamish, and open-minded.


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Offline Fan from VT

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Mentally ill boys pretending to be girls should absolutely not be participating with girls. Boys and girls have different bone structures, different muscles. It's insane to talk about hormone treatments and the like for children, who have no grasp of what they're doing to their young bodies.

All we're accomplishing with patronizing a boy or girl and allowing them to pretend they're something else is destroying a young life.

It's sick and it's evil.
Jesus Christ, please do some research before you post about such an important and difficult subject. You obviously know absolutely nothing about what it means to be transgender. You sound like an uneducated, ignorant savage.

I think that itís a legitimate viewpoint to consider this mental illness. Thatís how the DSM viewed it for decades, and there is a distinct link between trauma / abuse and transgenderism.
No. The people who think that being transgender is a mental illness are usually talking about gender dysphoria. That is the feeling that one's identity as male or female is the opposite to one's biological sex.

If that is your viewpoint, that's fine. But if you're going to say that someone has a mental illness, why is the solution to not treat that mental illness? Referencing mental illness and then forcing someone to identify as their biological sex, which is the cause of the mental illness you just brought up, makes absolutely no sense and is simply hypocritical.

I hope you understand this, I have discussed topics with you before and know you are more than civil. Not the other poster, though.

I'm always happy to hear another viewpoint, and to be educated.  I don't think transgenders are evil.  Jenny (Jim) Boylan was one of my professors, and I ate dinner in the Boylan home multiple times.  The Boylans are lovely people, and I would never describe her (I'll use Jenny's chosen pronoun) as evil.  I remember distinctly flipping through television channels and seeing a post-transition Jenny on Larry King, and immediately reaching out.  So, there's no hatred in my heart.

But, to me, it's a complicated issue.  I appreciate the comment above about how the best outcome for transgenders is aligned with living with their preferred gender.  Maybe that's the answer, even if this is in many cases a mental illness.  But, I do think there are some interesting questions. 

For instance, in many cases, people can achieve better outcomes related to self-esteem through cosmetic surgery.  Yet, ethics in the field suggest that it's often best to wait until somebody is fully developed before performing (elective) cosmetic surgeries.  Yet, it seems like there are fewer road blocks placed on hormone treatment and reassignment surgery.  Why?  With a teenage mind that is in flux, is it really the best time to permanently alter somebody's body?

And, does an emphasis on surgery and hormone treatments make it less likely that this will be treated as a mental illness?  Will it be politically incorrect to even research medications / treatments that are based upon the idea that transgenders are ill? 

There are mental illnesses that cause people to mutilate their bodies, that cause them to think that their limbs should be amputated.  Why is that a mental illness, but the idea of replacing one's genitalia is considered normal?  Would it be responsible for a doctor to amputate a client's arms because their client's mind was convinced that was in their best interest?

I think it's all interesting, and complicated.  I do wonder if our society is heading down the right path here.  I question whether science has been replaced by social justice, and whether that's a good thing. But, again, it's above my pay grade, because I have no idea what the best outcomes will be, or whether the distinction between mental illness and genetics is one that makes a huge difference in the long run.  Until there's something definitive, I'll be in parts confused, tolerant, squeamish, and open-minded.

In this case, and similar ones (homosexuality, etc), it is actually the Conservative SJWs that reliably deny they science and stick to their agenda. In this case, the "Social Justice" as you say (pejoratively? dog whistlingly?) is supported by and runs parallel to available science.

Offline Ilikesports17

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The Olympics has standards for this stuff. I'd use those.

Not sure it's financially feasible tho
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Offline byennie

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It's worth carefully understanding the definition of "mental illness" in this context. Gender dysphoria is considered a mental illness because it causes the person distress. It is not a moral criteria, what's "normal", what "should be", what's ok for society, etc, etc. It is simply a condition which inflicts pain on the human involved.

The cure for this "illness", to the best of our knowledge, is to accept these people into society and allow them the gender identity they seek. That's how you remove the condition.

As for athletes, I think everyone sees the issue but there's some question about where to draw the line. It's a value judgement. Obviously having male biology poses an advantage in women's sports, but it's not hard to see that a gray area emerges. Maybe world championships shouldn't be decided this way... but are you going to pull kids out of youth sports? If not, then when?
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Offline Shoot the J

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The easiest and safest way to proceed is to make all sports co-ed. No men's basketball. No women's basketball. Just basketball. Winning/success is decided purely by skill and nothing else.

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Mentally ill boys pretending to be girls should absolutely not be participating with girls. Boys and girls have different bone structures, different muscles. It's insane to talk about hormone treatments and the like for children, who have no grasp of what they're doing to their young bodies.

All we're accomplishing with patronizing a boy or girl and allowing them to pretend they're something else is destroying a young life.

It's sick and it's evil.
Jesus Christ, please do some research before you post about such an important and difficult subject. You obviously know absolutely nothing about what it means to be transgender. You sound like an uneducated, ignorant savage.

I think that itís a legitimate viewpoint to consider this mental illness. Thatís how the DSM viewed it for decades, and there is a distinct link between trauma / abuse and transgenderism.
No. The people who think that being transgender is a mental illness are usually talking about gender dysphoria. That is the feeling that one's identity as male or female is the opposite to one's biological sex.

If that is your viewpoint, that's fine. But if you're going to say that someone has a mental illness, why is the solution to not treat that mental illness? Referencing mental illness and then forcing someone to identify as their biological sex, which is the cause of the mental illness you just brought up, makes absolutely no sense and is simply hypocritical.

I hope you understand this, I have discussed topics with you before and know you are more than civil. Not the other poster, though.

I'm always happy to hear another viewpoint, and to be educated.  I don't think transgenders are evil.  Jenny (Jim) Boylan was one of my professors, and I ate dinner in the Boylan home multiple times.  The Boylans are lovely people, and I would never describe her (I'll use Jenny's chosen pronoun) as evil.  I remember distinctly flipping through television channels and seeing a post-transition Jenny on Larry King, and immediately reaching out.  So, there's no hatred in my heart.

But, to me, it's a complicated issue.  I appreciate the comment above about how the best outcome for transgenders is aligned with living with their preferred gender.  Maybe that's the answer, even if this is in many cases a mental illness.  But, I do think there are some interesting questions. 

For instance, in many cases, people can achieve better outcomes related to self-esteem through cosmetic surgery.  Yet, ethics in the field suggest that it's often best to wait until somebody is fully developed before performing (elective) cosmetic surgeries.  Yet, it seems like there are fewer road blocks placed on hormone treatment and reassignment surgery.  Why?  With a teenage mind that is in flux, is it really the best time to permanently alter somebody's body?

And, does an emphasis on surgery and hormone treatments make it less likely that this will be treated as a mental illness?  Will it be politically incorrect to even research medications / treatments that are based upon the idea that transgenders are ill? 

There are mental illnesses that cause people to mutilate their bodies, that cause them to think that their limbs should be amputated.  Why is that a mental illness, but the idea of replacing one's genitalia is considered normal?  Would it be responsible for a doctor to amputate a client's arms because their client's mind was convinced that was in their best interest?

I think it's all interesting, and complicated.  I do wonder if our society is heading down the right path here.  I question whether science has been replaced by social justice, and whether that's a good thing. But, again, it's above my pay grade, because I have no idea what the best outcomes will be, or whether the distinction between mental illness and genetics is one that makes a huge difference in the long run.  Until there's something definitive, I'll be in parts confused, tolerant, squeamish, and open-minded.

In this case, and similar ones (homosexuality, etc), it is actually the Conservative SJWs that reliably deny they science and stick to their agenda. In this case, the "Social Justice" as you say (pejoratively? dog whistlingly?) is supported by and runs parallel to available science.

Homosexuality and transgenderism are not the same.

As I understand it, homosexuality has a genetic basis. Most cases of transgenderism donít.  Rather, itís a mental / identity affliction. 

Lol @ dog whistling. Too much MSNBC for you.


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