Poll

Should trans boy athletes be allowed to compete with girls in high school sports

Yes
4 (9.5%)
No
38 (90.5%)

Total Members Voted: 42

Author Topic: Should trans boy athletes be allowed to compete with girls in high school sports  (Read 2176 times)

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Offline gift

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Hormone therapy would help to decrease the gap between natural physical advantages, but not eliminate it completely.

I wonder if the idea behind the proposal is to deter kids who would compete in a girls division just to dominate, and not really intend on living as transgender. The only ones going through hormone therapy would be, presumable, those who legitimately transitioning.

Offline Fafnir

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The really sticky issue is intersex athletes, especially in track.
That's a good point I didn't think of. But isn't that extremely uncommon? Like 1 in 20 million births or something?
Its more common than that.

I hesitate to give specific figures because there are a lot of different variations of how to describe intersex but its more on the order of one of a couple of thousand.

Offline gift

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If they’ve finished making a transition to their gender (hormonal therapy, surgery, whatever else is prescribed), then yes.

I'd be down with that.

There's still a difference between completing the transition at age 15 and at age 17 or 18. Obviously much bigger physical advantage for those transitioning later (not that I would want to encourage younger ones to completely transition).

Offline Roy H.

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Mentally ill boys pretending to be girls should absolutely not be participating with girls. Boys and girls have different bone structures, different muscles. It's insane to talk about hormone treatments and the like for children, who have no grasp of what they're doing to their young bodies.

All we're accomplishing with patronizing a boy or girl and allowing them to pretend they're something else is destroying a young life.

It's sick and it's evil.
Jesus Christ, please do some research before you post about such an important and difficult subject. You obviously know absolutely nothing about what it means to be transgender. You sound like an uneducated, ignorant savage.

I think that it’s a legitimate viewpoint to consider this mental illness. That’s how the DSM viewed it for decades, and there is a distinct link between trauma / abuse and transgenderism.


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Offline PhoSita

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Offline PhoSita

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All we're accomplishing with patronizing a boy or girl and allowing them to pretend they're something else is destroying a young life.

It's sick and it's evil.



Allllllllll of the reliable evidence supports the OPPOSITE conclusion, that allowing trans people to live the way they personally identify has FAR better health and well-being outcomes than the opposite.  There's no other method of treatment for trans people that has comparable outcomes.


You can believe that it's mental illness or that there really are people who are "born in the wrong body."  Either way, the medical evidence has demonstrated quite clearly that the most effective way to treat them -- i.e. help to prevent suicide, substance abuse, etc -- is to respect their chosen gender identity and provide treatment accordingly.
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Offline gouki88

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Mentally ill boys pretending to be girls should absolutely not be participating with girls. Boys and girls have different bone structures, different muscles. It's insane to talk about hormone treatments and the like for children, who have no grasp of what they're doing to their young bodies.

All we're accomplishing with patronizing a boy or girl and allowing them to pretend they're something else is destroying a young life.

It's sick and it's evil.
Jesus Christ, please do some research before you post about such an important and difficult subject. You obviously know absolutely nothing about what it means to be transgender. You sound like an uneducated, ignorant savage.

I think that it’s a legitimate viewpoint to consider this mental illness. That’s how the DSM viewed it for decades, and there is a distinct link between trauma / abuse and transgenderism.
Precisely

Offline gift

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The really sticky issue is intersex athletes, especially in track.
That's a good point I didn't think of. But isn't that extremely uncommon? Like 1 in 20 million births or something?
Its more common than that.

I hesitate to give specific figures because there are a lot of different variations of how to describe intersex but its more on the order of one of a couple of thousand.

I think there's a lot of self-reporting of intersex figures that may not be accurate. I believe we can statistically estimate different intersex variations and, if what we are actually seeing greatly differs from that, reporting isn't accurate or we're doing something to increase the frequency of these births. Most likely of those possibilities is inaccurate reporting, though others are possible.

Offline Donoghus

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If they’ve finished making a transition to their gender (hormonal therapy, surgery, whatever else is prescribed), then yes.

I'd be down with that.

There's still a difference between completing the transition at age 15 and at age 17 or 18. Obviously much bigger physical advantage for those transitioning later (not that I would want to encourage younger ones to completely transition).

Valid point.  I certainly haven't done extensive research on this subject.  I just think if you're fully transitioned, you should be allowed to compete.

Either sex already, there are kids who develop more quickly than others. 

It's certainly a grey area but I think if you've fully transitioned, you shouldn't be prohibited from competing at your new level.


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Offline indeedproceed

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If they’ve finished making a transition to their gender (hormonal therapy, surgery, whatever else is prescribed), then yes.

I'd be down with that.

There's still a difference between completing the transition at age 15 and at age 17 or 18. Obviously much bigger physical advantage for those transitioning later (not that I would want to encourage younger ones to completely transition).

Valid point.  I certainly haven't done extensive research on this subject.  I just think if you're fully transitioned, you should be allowed to compete.

Either sex already, there are kids who develop more quickly than others. 

It's certainly a grey area but I think if you've fully transitioned, you shouldn't be prohibited from competing at your new level.

Cosigned, well said.

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Offline ETNCeltics

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Mentally ill boys pretending to be girls should absolutely not be participating with girls. Boys and girls have different bone structures, different muscles. It's insane to talk about hormone treatments and the like for children, who have no grasp of what they're doing to their young bodies.

All we're accomplishing with patronizing a boy or girl and allowing them to pretend they're something else is destroying a young life.

It's sick and it's evil.
Jesus Christ, please do some research before you post about such an important and difficult subject. You obviously know absolutely nothing about what it means to be transgender. You sound like an uneducated, ignorant savage.

Given that your first instinct is to blaspheme, I'll take you calling me a savage as a compliment. You've chosen to placate the mentally ill by patting them on the head and telling them their delusion is reasonable. I choose to call a spade a spade. Putting a dress on a man doesn't make a man a woman, whether he takes the insane step of cutting off his penis and taking hormones, or not. Nothing in this universe will make Bruce Jenner a woman.

I don't know anything about what it means to be "transgender" (neither do you) because there is no such thing. It's impossible for any man - or woman - to know what it means, just as they don't know what it means to be a dog or a cat.

Research? Chromosomes don't lie. You and your sort have decided to replace simple science with irrational politics and faux compassion.

Offline Roy H.

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Stay civil.


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Offline gift

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All we're accomplishing with patronizing a boy or girl and allowing them to pretend they're something else is destroying a young life.

It's sick and it's evil.



Allllllllll of the reliable evidence supports the OPPOSITE conclusion, that allowing trans people to live the way they personally identify has FAR better health and well-being outcomes than the opposite.  There's no other method of treatment for trans people that has comparable outcomes.


You can believe that it's mental illness or that there really are people who are "born in the wrong body."  Either way, the medical evidence has demonstrated quite clearly that the most effective way to treat them -- i.e. help to prevent suicide, substance abuse, etc -- is to respect their chosen gender identity and provide treatment accordingly.

I think the problem comes from the fact that, while most are willing to provide respect to trans individuals (not because they want to engage in their "treatment", but just out of decency), some of those same people don't necessarily want to be told that they are wrong for seeing it as a mental illness.

There should be room for people to view it as a mental illness and still treat trans people with respect. Also, those who view it as a mental illness should respect those who don't see it as a mental illness and vice versa. As long as trans people are being treated with respect, reasonable disagreements should be tolerated on both sides.

It is a difficult thing for many in the trans community because their acceptance in society is so closely tied to their identity. It is exactly that that they are searching for. They have a sense of their own personal identity, but it's very important to them to know their place within the existing structure of society since it is so conventionally structured without a designation for them. This is why many trans activists speak of issues as matters of existential importance. This is why many feel threatened when not tolerated or simply accepted. It is crucial to them to be, not only trans, but accepted as trans.

Nevertheless, trans people (as all people) would be benefited by, as much as possible, living without regard to how society ascribes their belonging to it, and the conventional/traditional world should focus on common decency and respect for all people who don't fall in line with existing structure.

But because of the difficulty in achieving this ideal, we have reactionary movements to compensate for perceived inequalities, when inequality is the very nature of individual identity. For so many people, their identity is both personal and social, which I suspect at certain levels, is unhealthy, and perhaps could be labeled as a mental health issue. You can know yourself, but you can't force others to know you, or know only a certain part of you. You don't fully control how others see you. To not accept this reality, could lead to maddening anxiety, frustration, alienation, violence, self-harm, regardless of sex, gender, orientation, race, age, socioeconomic status etc.

There are a lot of unhealthy mental states in the world and many of them are commonly accepted. I'm not sure its always better that they are, but I'm confident that when dealing with them, it is better to do so with respect.

Offline gift

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If they’ve finished making a transition to their gender (hormonal therapy, surgery, whatever else is prescribed), then yes.

I'd be down with that.

There's still a difference between completing the transition at age 15 and at age 17 or 18. Obviously much bigger physical advantage for those transitioning later (not that I would want to encourage younger ones to completely transition).

Valid point.  I certainly haven't done extensive research on this subject.  I just think if you're fully transitioned, you should be allowed to compete.

Either sex already, there are kids who develop more quickly than others. 

It's certainly a grey area but I think if you've fully transitioned, you shouldn't be prohibited from competing at your new level.

Certainly a grey area. Because you'd had to define "fully transitioned", which can mean different things to different people. And one of the disadvantages to trans athletes is that they have to then "prove" that they meet requirements, while non-trans athletes are simply assumed and accepted.

Offline pearljammer10

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This is such a tough issue. I've witnessed this first hand as a high school coach. Its a difficult situation for all that are involved and its easy to see the argument from every side.
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