Author Topic: Possible complicated sign-and-trade scenarios  (Read 772 times)

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Possible complicated sign-and-trade scenarios
« on: June 08, 2018, 12:10:34 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Sorry Clay, it's another LeBron thread. 

I previously created a thread about why Boston going after LeBron is insane, but not THAT insane:  http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=96648.0

In that post I outlined a couple scenarios.

#1 - We just salary dump Horford on a team like Indiana, let Smart walk, and suddenly have about 30 mil in cap space to offer LeBron

#2 - We work out some kind of sign-and-trade where we ship out Horford (or Hayward) and get back LeBron.


I want to expand on that by discussing more elaborate sign-and-trade scenarios.  This doesn't have to be limited to LeBron.  Paul George or Boogie Cousins, for instance, might be targets.  Sign-and-trades are actually an area I don't really have a great grasp of.  I want to throw out some ideas and hope others can expand and clarify.  Here's some information about the current rules:  http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q92

Quote
The sign-and-trade rule allows teams to re-sign their own free agents for trading purposes. Under this rule the player is re-signed and immediately traded to another team. This is done by adding a clause to the contract stipulating that the contract is null and void if the trade to the specific team is not completed within 48 hours. A sign-and-trade is treated like a single, atomic transaction, and not two separate transactions between which one party can change its mind -- if the trade is not completed, then the signing is invalidated.

To qualify for a sign-and-trade, all of the following must be true:

  • The player must re-sign with his prior team -- a team cannot include another team's free agent in a sign-and-trade.
  • The player must finish the preceding season with that team (deals are no longer allowed that sign-and-trade players who are out of the league, such as the sign-and-trade that sent Keith Van Horn from Dallas to New Jersey as part of the Jason Kidd trade in 2008).
  • The player cannot be a restricted free agent who has signed an offer sheet with another team (see question number 42).
  • The team receiving the player cannot be above the "Apron" (see question number 20) at the conclusion of the trade1, 2. A team above the Apron can receive a player in a sign-and-trade if the trade reduces the team's payroll and the team finishes the trade below the Apron.
  • The team cannot receive a player in a sign-and-trade if they have used the Taxpayer Mid-Level exception (see question number 25) that season.1
  • The trade must be completed prior to the first game of the regular season (sign-and-trades are not allowed once the season begins).
  • The player cannot be signed using the Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level exception, the Taxpayer Mid-Level exception, or any exception that cannot be used to offer a three-year contract (see question number 25).

Based on my interpretation of those rules, it seems we could actually sign our own free agents and immediately include them in trades as long as the free agent agrees.   This doesn't seem to be limited to any particular type of free agent.  From what I can tell, Baynes (non-bird rights free agent), Monroe (non-bird rights free agent) and Smart (restricted free agent) could all qualify. 

I think with Baynes and Monroe we're limited to how much we can offer it.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but in each instance we can only offer them contracts starting at 120% of their prior year salary.  That would mean 5.1 million for Baynes and 6 mil for Monroe. 

Seems to me, you could offer up Baynes 5 mil + Monroe's 6 mil + Marcus Morris 5.3 mil + Yabu's 2.6 mil + Rozier's 3 mil and get yourself to 22 mil.  And since you can take back 125%, you could take back a contract making 27.3 mil. 

Of course, the easier route seems to be just agreeing to overpay Marcus Smart as part of a sign-and-trade.  Say his market value is 12 mil.  Maybe you agree to pay him 20 mil if he signs off on being traded to the Cavs.   Then suddenly Smart + Morris gets you to 25 mil and you can take back a contract making 30 mil.

The big wrinkle there might be that both teams need to be below the "apron" in the aftermath of the trade.  I think the "apron" is like 126 mil.  So for instance... Hayward (31), Horford (29), Kyrie (20), LeBron (30) Tatum (6.7), Brown (5) is already 122 mil.   That makes it tricky.  But fwiw, if LeBron truly decided "I'm not happy with Durant getting himself a bunch of unearned championships" and decided to join an established great team, he might do what Durant did and take a paycut.  Durant was making 25 mil initially.

Thoughts?

Re: Possible complicated sign-and-trade scenarios
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2018, 12:14:22 AM »

Offline mqtcelticsfan

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I can’t imagine Cleveland agreeing to take on Smart if we overpay him by that much.

Re: Possible complicated sign-and-trade scenarios
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2018, 12:20:33 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I can’t imagine Cleveland agreeing to take on Smart if we overpay him by that much.
if picks are included the dynamic can change.  If their options are losing LeBron for nothing or getting Smart and a 1st, they probably have to take Smart and the 1st.

Re: Possible complicated sign-and-trade scenarios
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2018, 12:47:59 AM »

Offline JSD

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Kyrie just requested out of Cleveland to get away from James. If someone goes, he is the logical choice.

Kyrie to Phoenix for the 1st overall pick. Morris to wherever for a 2nd rounder. Sign James

Re: Possible complicated sign-and-trade scenarios
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2018, 01:01:26 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Kyrie just requested out of Cleveland to get away from James.
That's not really true, though.

More accurate:  Kyrie requested out of Cleveland to get away from Cleveland before James left. 

Dysfunctional organization that's been poorly managed.  Kyrie played for 4 different coaches.  The relationship between LeBron and ownership was ice cold.  All the buzz was that Bron was heading into his final season with Cleveland before he bailed.  Ownership and the GM didn't share the same vision for the team - Kyrie was being shopped (something LeBron himself claims he was against) trying to find some magic deal that could convince LeBron to sign extra years.  LeBron refused to sign extra years.  The GM stepped down.  Gilbert asked Kyrie about his preferred trade destinations.  And about a week later, Kyrie reportedly put in a request to be moved.  It wasn't about not getting along with LeBron - it was about getting the heck out of the mess that was Cleveland.  Asking out when he did allowed his agent to spin it as Kyrie being bold and brash and choosing the harder path.  Had he waited until after LeBron left to ask out, he'd be seen as a quitter and a coward.  It was a business move above all else.  That and he was seeking franchise stability. 

There's no beef between LeBron and Kyrie.  Just mutual respect and love.

Re: Possible complicated sign-and-trade scenarios
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2018, 10:10:16 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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If ya'll take anything away from this, take away the fact that Marcus Smart can be signed-and-traded.  I think that's an important point.

Re: Possible complicated sign-and-trade scenarios
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2018, 10:13:09 PM »

Offline gouki88

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If ya'll take anything away from this, take away the fact that Marcus Smart can be signed-and-traded.  I think that's an important point.
;)

Exciting

Re: Possible complicated sign-and-trade scenarios
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2018, 10:15:30 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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If ya'll take anything away from this, take away the fact that Marcus Smart can be signed-and-traded.  I think that's an important point.

Unfortunately, I thought the same but @saltlover explained that Smart's S&T value will only count for half the money in a trade.

So even if he hypothetically signed a 20M/Year extension as a S&T piece, it would only count for 10M in the trade, not 20M.
2018 Mock Trade Deadline (New York Knicks)

Roster: Porzingis, Kanter, Hardaway Jr, Julius Randle, Schroder, Beasley, Alex Abrines, Jarrett Jack, Frank Ntilikina, Lance Thomas, Kyle Singler, Josh Huestis, Ron Baker, Trey Burke, Luke Kornet, Isaiah Hicks

Future Draft Picks: https://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/Knick

Re: Possible complicated sign-and-trade scenarios
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2018, 11:38:02 PM »

Online saltlover

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If ya'll take anything away from this, take away the fact that Marcus Smart can be signed-and-traded.  I think that's an important point.

Unfortunately, I thought the same but @saltlover explained that Smart's S&T value will only count for half the money in a trade.

So even if he hypothetically signed a 20M/Year extension as a S&T piece, it would only count for 10M in the trade, not 20M.

TP for being a good student!
“When an alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien. The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.”

Leviticus 19:33-34

Re: Possible complicated sign-and-trade scenarios
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2018, 11:41:03 PM »

Offline gouki88

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If ya'll take anything away from this, take away the fact that Marcus Smart can be signed-and-traded.  I think that's an important point.

Unfortunately, I thought the same but @saltlover explained that Smart's S&T value will only count for half the money in a trade.

So even if he hypothetically signed a 20M/Year extension as a S&T piece, it would only count for 10M in the trade, not 20M.

TP for being a good student!
Phantom can be our resident cap expert  when saltlover is inevitably hired to replace Mike Zarren

Re: Possible complicated sign-and-trade scenarios
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2018, 11:42:20 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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If ya'll take anything away from this, take away the fact that Marcus Smart can be signed-and-traded.  I think that's an important point.

Unfortunately, I thought the same but @saltlover explained that Smart's S&T value will only count for half the money in a trade.

So even if he hypothetically signed a 20M/Year extension as a S&T piece, it would only count for 10M in the trade, not 20M.
Edit: Quick search proved him correct.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 11:48:43 PM by tazzmaniac »

Re: Possible complicated sign-and-trade scenarios
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2018, 11:50:34 PM »

Online saltlover

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If ya'll take anything away from this, take away the fact that Marcus Smart can be signed-and-traded.  I think that's an important point.

Unfortunately, I thought the same but @saltlover explained that Smart's S&T value will only count for half the money in a trade.

So even if he hypothetically signed a 20M/Year extension as a S&T piece, it would only count for 10M in the trade, not 20M.
That doesn't sound right.  Where did he say that?

In a thread last week.  If Smart is signed for more than a 20% raise as part of a sign-and-trade, his outgoing salary is the greater of half his year 1 salary or 120% of his salary this past season.  His incoming salary counts for whatever he signed at.

This doesn’t make a deal impossible, but it means that if you wanted to send Smart out in a deal for LBJ, it works better if he’s going to a third team that’s under the cap and doesn’t care about incoming salary.

The bigger issue, however, is that an LBJ sign-and-trade binds us to the hard cap, so sending out Smart, who’s already not on the books for next season, makes it that much more difficult to get under said hard cap.
“When an alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien. The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.”

Leviticus 19:33-34

Re: Possible complicated sign-and-trade scenarios
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2018, 12:08:10 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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If ya'll take anything away from this, take away the fact that Marcus Smart can be signed-and-traded.  I think that's an important point.

Unfortunately, I thought the same but @saltlover explained that Smart's S&T value will only count for half the money in a trade.

So even if he hypothetically signed a 20M/Year extension as a S&T piece, it would only count for 10M in the trade, not 20M.
That doesn't sound right.  Where did he say that?

In a thread last week.  If Smart is signed for more than a 20% raise as part of a sign-and-trade, his outgoing salary is the greater of half his year 1 salary or 120% of his salary this past season.  His incoming salary counts for whatever he signed at.

This doesn’t make a deal impossible, but it means that if you wanted to send Smart out in a deal for LBJ, it works better if he’s going to a third team that’s under the cap and doesn’t care about incoming salary.

The bigger issue, however, is that an LBJ sign-and-trade binds us to the hard cap, so sending out Smart, who’s already not on the books for next season, makes it that much more difficult to get under said hard cap.
Tangential question.  Non-guaranteed money doesn't count in trades anymore.  So how does that work in regards to sign and trades?  Could the Cavs do a partially guaranteed sign and trade with Lebron so they'd have to take back less salary? 

Re: Possible complicated sign-and-trade scenarios
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2018, 12:14:00 AM »

Online saltlover

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Kyrie just requested out of Cleveland to get away from James. If someone goes, he is the logical choice.

Kyrie to Phoenix for the 1st overall pick. Morris to wherever for a 2nd rounder. Sign James

I agree Kyrie is the odd man out.  That said, I don’t see Phoenix giving us #1 overall for him given his contract status and injury situation.  Maybe their pick from the Bucks next season, and/or their 2021 pick or the Heat pick with a similar protection to that of the SAC/Philly pick next year.

Send an okay 1st (maybe the Milwaukee one from the hypothetical deal with Phoenix if we get multiple picks) Morris (or a 2nd acquired for him) and Yabusele to Cleveland.  They complete a S&T that keeps them far below the tax, and get a couple of small pieces to help with their new rebuild for a player who’s going to leave them one way or another.
“When an alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien. The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.”

Leviticus 19:33-34

Re: Possible complicated sign-and-trade scenarios
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2018, 12:15:13 AM »

Online saltlover

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If ya'll take anything away from this, take away the fact that Marcus Smart can be signed-and-traded.  I think that's an important point.

Unfortunately, I thought the same but @saltlover explained that Smart's S&T value will only count for half the money in a trade.

So even if he hypothetically signed a 20M/Year extension as a S&T piece, it would only count for 10M in the trade, not 20M.
That doesn't sound right.  Where did he say that?

In a thread last week.  If Smart is signed for more than a 20% raise as part of a sign-and-trade, his outgoing salary is the greater of half his year 1 salary or 120% of his salary this past season.  His incoming salary counts for whatever he signed at.

This doesn’t make a deal impossible, but it means that if you wanted to send Smart out in a deal for LBJ, it works better if he’s going to a third team that’s under the cap and doesn’t care about incoming salary.

The bigger issue, however, is that an LBJ sign-and-trade binds us to the hard cap, so sending out Smart, who’s already not on the books for next season, makes it that much more difficult to get under said hard cap.
Tangential question.  Non-guaranteed money doesn't count in trades anymore.  So how does that work in regards to sign and trades?  Could the Cavs do a partially guaranteed sign and trade with Lebron so they'd have to take back less salary?

No, because the first year in a sign-and-trade needs to be fully guaranteed.
“When an alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien. The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.”

Leviticus 19:33-34