Poll

Who is the GOAT?

MJ
28 (56%)
LJ
5 (10%)
other
17 (34%)

Total Members Voted: 50

Author Topic: MJ vs LJ  (Read 1847 times)

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Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #75 on: June 08, 2018, 02:04:13 PM »

Online celticsclay

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Watch Lebron not fight to get through this viscous curry screen at the end of the game on the most important possession in the NBA Finals



Yea I will take MJ.

Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #76 on: June 08, 2018, 02:20:25 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Watch Lebron not fight to get through this viscous curry screen at the end of the game on the most important possession in the NBA Finals



Yea I will take MJ.
That was the team's defensive strategy.  They did all game long and even when it was Love that switched onto Durant.  That is what having a crappy coach looks like.

Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #77 on: June 08, 2018, 02:47:08 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I posted this on Reddit asking if the Cavs would still be in the Finals with prime Jordan in Lebron’s place.

Quote
Not arguing with Jordan's resume.  He was greatest ever.  They dominated their competition back then.  That said, Jordan has a losing record his first 3 seasons carrying a garbage team:

* 1984 age 21:  28 pts, 6 asts, 6.5 rbs, 2.4 stl - Bulls win 38 games
* 1985 age 22:  Jordan only plays 18 games.  Bulls win 30 games
* 1986 age 23:  37.1 pts, 4.6 asts, 5.2 rbs, 2.9 sl  - Bulls win 40 games

Not until 1987 and the arrival of Scottie Pippen did the Bulls win 50 games. 

Pippen always gets overlooked.  The biggest argument in favor of Pippen is that in 1993 during Title #3 for the Bulls, they won 57 games.   Jordan "retires" and the very next season (without Jordan), Pippen carries the Bulls to 55 wins and the second round.  Pippen's averages that season:  22 points, 5.6 assists, 8.7 rebounds, 2.9 steals

So FWIW, Jordan never won 50+ games without Pippen, but Pippen won 50+ games with Jordan.

Consider LeBron's performance when the same age as Jordan's first 3 seasons (in which Jordan finished below .500 every year).   

* 2006 Age 21:  31.4 pts, 6.6 asts, 7 rbs, 1.6 stl. - Cavs win 50
* 2007 age 22:  27.3 pts, 6 ast, 6.7 rbs, 1.6 st.  - Cavs win 50 and make Finals
* 2008 age 23:  30 pts, 7.2 ast, 7.9 rbs, 1.8 stl - Cavs win 45

Jordan finally cracked 50 wins at age 24 during Pippen's rookie season.  At age 24, LeBron won 66 games alongside Mo Williams.

History aside, how do you think this Cavs team plays with prime Jordan in LeBron's spot?  Is he easier to defend?  Harder?  Jordan is significantly smaller than LeBron, doesn't have the same shooting range, and doesnt get his teammates involved as much.  Do they still sweep the Raptors and get through the length of the Celtics? 

Jordan's mid-range shooting in his prime was incredible.  Athletically he was a marvel.  One of the fiercest competitors the league will ever see.  Was he more athletic than LeBron, though?  Does the mid-range shooting offer him that much of an advantage considering the length of defenses like the Celtics?  Is he that much more of a competitor than LeBron? Explain to me why prime Jordan would do a better job carrying this team.

Honest question.  How does it play out?  Don't just say "Obviously cuz Jordan is the greatest"... give me some real reasons.  LeBron got through the Celtics with his size, strength and range.  How does Jordan beat them? 

Everyone just responded “yes jordan would make the finals”.  No actual analysis. It’s lazy.  The Paul Bunyaning of Jordan.  Listen, I saw prime Kobe try to carry teams like this Cavs squad and end up winning 35 games and missing the playoffs.  Granted, prime Kobe was like 60-70% the player jordan was, but it’s food for thought.   Lebron is somehow very underrated.  Consider context when dismissing Lebron losses.  Jordan wasn’t going against a juggernaut stacked with 4 all-nba players (three of the greatest shooters of all time on one team). Instead Jordan was going against mortal pairs like Malone/Stockton or Payton/Kemp - while playing alongside a top 50 player (Pippen) who only saw his team lose 2 less games (57 to 55) when Jordan retired.  You know what happened to the 66 win Cavs when Lebron left?... they won 15 games.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 02:58:14 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #78 on: June 08, 2018, 02:58:49 PM »

Online celticsclay

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I posted this on Reddit asking if the Cavs would still be in the Finals with prime Jordan in Lebron’s place.

Quote
Not arguing with Jordan's resume.  He was greatest ever.  They dominated their competition back then.  That said, Jordan has a losing record his first 3 seasons carrying a garbage team:

* 1984 age 21:  28 pts, 6 asts, 6.5 rbs, 2.4 stl - Bulls win 38 games
* 1985 age 22:  Jordan only plays 18 games.  Bulls win 30 games
* 1986 age 23:  37.1 pts, 4.6 asts, 5.2 rbs, 2.9 sl  - Bulls win 40 games

Not until 1987 and the arrival of Scottie Pippen did the Bulls win 50 games. 

Pippen always gets overlooked.  The biggest argument in favor of Pippen is that in 1993 during Title #3 for the Bulls, they won 57 games.   Jordan "retires" and the very next season (without Jordan), Pippen carries the Bulls to 55 wins and the second round.  Pippen's averages that season:  22 points, 5.6 assists, 8.7 rebounds, 2.9 steals

So FWIW, Jordan never won 50+ games without Pippen, but Pippen won 50+ games with Jordan.

Consider LeBron's performance when the same age as Jordan's first 3 seasons (in which Jordan finished below .500 every year).   

* 2006 Age 21:  31.4 pts, 6.6 asts, 7 rbs, 1.6 stl. - Cavs win 50
* 2007 age 22:  27.3 pts, 6 ast, 6.7 rbs, 1.6 st.  - Cavs win 50 and make Finals
* 2008 age 23:  30 pts, 7.2 ast, 7.9 rbs, 1.8 stl - Cavs win 45

Jordan finally cracked 50 wins at age 24 during Pippen's rookie season.  At age 24, LeBron won 66 games alongside Mo Williams.

History aside, how do you think this Cavs team plays with prime Jordan in LeBron's spot?  Is he easier to defend?  Harder?  Jordan is significantly smaller than LeBron, doesn't have the same shooting range, and doesnt get his teammates involved as much.  Do they still sweep the Raptors and get through the length of the Celtics? 

Jordan's mid-range shooting in his prime was incredible.  Athletically he was a marvel.  One of the fiercest competitors the league will ever see.  Was he more athletic than LeBron, though?  Does the mid-range shooting offer him that much of an advantage considering the length of defenses like the Celtics?  Is he that much more of a competitor than LeBron? Explain to me why prime Jordan would do a better job carrying this team.

Honest question.  How does it play out?  Don't just say "Obviously cuz Jordan is the greatest"... give me some real reasons.  LeBron got through the Celtics with his size, strength and range.  How does Jordan beat them? 

Everyone just responded “yes jordan would make the finals”.  No actual analysis. It’s lazy.  The Paul Bunyaning of Jordan.  Listen, I saw prime Kobe try to carry teams like this Cavs squad and end up winning 35 games and missing the playoffs.  Granted, prime Kobe was like 60-70% the player jordan was, but it’s food for thought.   Lebron is somehow very underrated.  Consider context when dismissing Lebron losses.  Jordan wasn’t going against a juggernaut stacked with 4 all-nba players (three of the greatest shooters of all time on one team). Instead Jordan was going against mortal pairs like Malone/Stockton or Payton/Kemp - while playing alongside a top 50 player (Pippen) who only saw his team lose 2 less games (57 to 55) when Jordan retired.

Meh, people talked about Love like he was a superstar (even on these forums) and now act like he is complete chopped liver even though he is in his absolute prime at 29 and was an all-star this year. George Hill, Rodney Hood, and Korver have all been really high level role players or in hill's case, an above average starter for many years. Lebron completely dominates their system and we are now meant to believe all these other players are complete crap all of a sudden? I personally think the Lebron has no help narrative is the lazy one.

They have way more talent than the celtics without irving or hayward, but limped by us and people act like it was some herculean effort by Lebron carrying scrubs. 1) They are not scrubs, 2) if he is the best ever he should be able to beat a team led by a rookie and second year player and lifetime role players playing with me you and moranis. 

Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #79 on: June 08, 2018, 03:04:53 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I posted this on Reddit asking if the Cavs would still be in the Finals with prime Jordan in Lebron’s place.

Quote
Not arguing with Jordan's resume.  He was greatest ever.  They dominated their competition back then.  That said, Jordan has a losing record his first 3 seasons carrying a garbage team:

* 1984 age 21:  28 pts, 6 asts, 6.5 rbs, 2.4 stl - Bulls win 38 games
* 1985 age 22:  Jordan only plays 18 games.  Bulls win 30 games
* 1986 age 23:  37.1 pts, 4.6 asts, 5.2 rbs, 2.9 sl  - Bulls win 40 games

Not until 1987 and the arrival of Scottie Pippen did the Bulls win 50 games. 

Pippen always gets overlooked.  The biggest argument in favor of Pippen is that in 1993 during Title #3 for the Bulls, they won 57 games.   Jordan "retires" and the very next season (without Jordan), Pippen carries the Bulls to 55 wins and the second round.  Pippen's averages that season:  22 points, 5.6 assists, 8.7 rebounds, 2.9 steals

So FWIW, Jordan never won 50+ games without Pippen, but Pippen won 50+ games with Jordan.

Consider LeBron's performance when the same age as Jordan's first 3 seasons (in which Jordan finished below .500 every year).   

* 2006 Age 21:  31.4 pts, 6.6 asts, 7 rbs, 1.6 stl. - Cavs win 50
* 2007 age 22:  27.3 pts, 6 ast, 6.7 rbs, 1.6 st.  - Cavs win 50 and make Finals
* 2008 age 23:  30 pts, 7.2 ast, 7.9 rbs, 1.8 stl - Cavs win 45

Jordan finally cracked 50 wins at age 24 during Pippen's rookie season.  At age 24, LeBron won 66 games alongside Mo Williams.

History aside, how do you think this Cavs team plays with prime Jordan in LeBron's spot?  Is he easier to defend?  Harder?  Jordan is significantly smaller than LeBron, doesn't have the same shooting range, and doesnt get his teammates involved as much.  Do they still sweep the Raptors and get through the length of the Celtics? 

Jordan's mid-range shooting in his prime was incredible.  Athletically he was a marvel.  One of the fiercest competitors the league will ever see.  Was he more athletic than LeBron, though?  Does the mid-range shooting offer him that much of an advantage considering the length of defenses like the Celtics?  Is he that much more of a competitor than LeBron? Explain to me why prime Jordan would do a better job carrying this team.

Honest question.  How does it play out?  Don't just say "Obviously cuz Jordan is the greatest"... give me some real reasons.  LeBron got through the Celtics with his size, strength and range.  How does Jordan beat them? 

Everyone just responded “yes jordan would make the finals”.  No actual analysis. It’s lazy.  The Paul Bunyaning of Jordan.  Listen, I saw prime Kobe try to carry teams like this Cavs squad and end up winning 35 games and missing the playoffs.  Granted, prime Kobe was like 60-70% the player jordan was, but it’s food for thought.   Lebron is somehow very underrated.  Consider context when dismissing Lebron losses.  Jordan wasn’t going against a juggernaut stacked with 4 all-nba players (three of the greatest shooters of all time on one team). Instead Jordan was going against mortal pairs like Malone/Stockton or Payton/Kemp - while playing alongside a top 50 player (Pippen) who only saw his team lose 2 less games (57 to 55) when Jordan retired.

Meh, people talked about Love like he was a superstar (even on these forums) and now act like he is complete chopped liver even though he is in his absolute prime at 29 and was an all-star this year. George Hill, Rodney Hood, and Korver have all been really high level role players or in hill's case, an above average starter for many years. Lebron completely dominates their system and we are now meant to believe all these other players are complete crap all of a sudden? I personally think the Lebron has no help narrative is the lazy one.

They have way more talent than the celtics without irving or hayward, but limped by us and people act like it was some herculean effort by Lebron carrying scrubs. 1) They are not scrubs, 2) if he is the best ever he should be able to beat a team led by a rookie and second year player and lifetime role players playing with me you and moranis.
last time Lebron left the Cavs they won 15 games.  If he leaves this group it will be more of the same.

Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #80 on: June 08, 2018, 04:14:15 PM »

Online celticsclay

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I posted this on Reddit asking if the Cavs would still be in the Finals with prime Jordan in Lebron’s place.

Quote
Not arguing with Jordan's resume.  He was greatest ever.  They dominated their competition back then.  That said, Jordan has a losing record his first 3 seasons carrying a garbage team:

* 1984 age 21:  28 pts, 6 asts, 6.5 rbs, 2.4 stl - Bulls win 38 games
* 1985 age 22:  Jordan only plays 18 games.  Bulls win 30 games
* 1986 age 23:  37.1 pts, 4.6 asts, 5.2 rbs, 2.9 sl  - Bulls win 40 games

Not until 1987 and the arrival of Scottie Pippen did the Bulls win 50 games. 

Pippen always gets overlooked.  The biggest argument in favor of Pippen is that in 1993 during Title #3 for the Bulls, they won 57 games.   Jordan "retires" and the very next season (without Jordan), Pippen carries the Bulls to 55 wins and the second round.  Pippen's averages that season:  22 points, 5.6 assists, 8.7 rebounds, 2.9 steals

So FWIW, Jordan never won 50+ games without Pippen, but Pippen won 50+ games with Jordan.

Consider LeBron's performance when the same age as Jordan's first 3 seasons (in which Jordan finished below .500 every year).   

* 2006 Age 21:  31.4 pts, 6.6 asts, 7 rbs, 1.6 stl. - Cavs win 50
* 2007 age 22:  27.3 pts, 6 ast, 6.7 rbs, 1.6 st.  - Cavs win 50 and make Finals
* 2008 age 23:  30 pts, 7.2 ast, 7.9 rbs, 1.8 stl - Cavs win 45

Jordan finally cracked 50 wins at age 24 during Pippen's rookie season.  At age 24, LeBron won 66 games alongside Mo Williams.

History aside, how do you think this Cavs team plays with prime Jordan in LeBron's spot?  Is he easier to defend?  Harder?  Jordan is significantly smaller than LeBron, doesn't have the same shooting range, and doesnt get his teammates involved as much.  Do they still sweep the Raptors and get through the length of the Celtics? 

Jordan's mid-range shooting in his prime was incredible.  Athletically he was a marvel.  One of the fiercest competitors the league will ever see.  Was he more athletic than LeBron, though?  Does the mid-range shooting offer him that much of an advantage considering the length of defenses like the Celtics?  Is he that much more of a competitor than LeBron? Explain to me why prime Jordan would do a better job carrying this team.

Honest question.  How does it play out?  Don't just say "Obviously cuz Jordan is the greatest"... give me some real reasons.  LeBron got through the Celtics with his size, strength and range.  How does Jordan beat them? 

Everyone just responded “yes jordan would make the finals”.  No actual analysis. It’s lazy.  The Paul Bunyaning of Jordan.  Listen, I saw prime Kobe try to carry teams like this Cavs squad and end up winning 35 games and missing the playoffs.  Granted, prime Kobe was like 60-70% the player jordan was, but it’s food for thought.   Lebron is somehow very underrated.  Consider context when dismissing Lebron losses.  Jordan wasn’t going against a juggernaut stacked with 4 all-nba players (three of the greatest shooters of all time on one team). Instead Jordan was going against mortal pairs like Malone/Stockton or Payton/Kemp - while playing alongside a top 50 player (Pippen) who only saw his team lose 2 less games (57 to 55) when Jordan retired.

Meh, people talked about Love like he was a superstar (even on these forums) and now act like he is complete chopped liver even though he is in his absolute prime at 29 and was an all-star this year. George Hill, Rodney Hood, and Korver have all been really high level role players or in hill's case, an above average starter for many years. Lebron completely dominates their system and we are now meant to believe all these other players are complete crap all of a sudden? I personally think the Lebron has no help narrative is the lazy one.

They have way more talent than the celtics without irving or hayward, but limped by us and people act like it was some herculean effort by Lebron carrying scrubs. 1) They are not scrubs, 2) if he is the best ever he should be able to beat a team led by a rookie and second year player and lifetime role players playing with me you and moranis.
last time Lebron left the Cavs they won 15 games.  If he leaves this group it will be more of the same.

If you are saying it is because they will blow it up tank and will trade love and other good players for picks and prospects I agree. If you are saying the reason the went from winning to 61 to 15 games was just because Lebron left, that is actually a pretty common misunderstanding.

They lost Shaq, who while not a superstar, was still a very good big man averaging 18 points and 10 rebounds Their 3rd and 4th best players (Varejo and Mo Williams, who while not stars, where high level role players went from playing 70 and 76 games to playing 36 and 31. They were gutted further by losing Ilgauskas who himself almost averaged a double double the season before (13 and 9) and Delonte West who was pretty much their second best players in the playoffs.

I am not trying to say that would even be a playoff team if they kept all those guys/they stayed healthy its probably a 32 win team, maybe a little higher  given the weakness of the east.
The 19 win argument is pretty lazy and ignores them gutting their team.

Funny thing is, the lazy narrative is actually repeating now with people acting like a team with Love, Hill, Korver, Thompson, Hood, Clarkson, Nance couldn't compete for a low playoff seed like the Hornets did this year in the east. They are a very similar team and have a 5x all-star that has made two second all-nba teams. 


Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #81 on: June 08, 2018, 04:20:03 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
Everyone just responded “yes jordan would make the finals”.  No actual analysis

Jordan has incredible will to win.

It has taken LeBron two more seasons to catch Jordan in stuff like WS, and the like.   Jordan still leads in a lot of categories.  LeBron is clearly a better passer and rebounder and more all around guy.   But MJ is a winner and did not lose to extent LeBron has lost.   Its going to get even worse after the sweep in this finals or a game five loss, too.   The L in LeBron is for Loser.....

That being said, he is the most productive player of all time in terms of what he brings to the game.   The most versatile, a force of nature, but a final winner he is not.  This isn't all on him, but he has found some ways to lose over the years .

The cramps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HHxkTHjBZo

The quitting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1PesQ1yA6g

People do not forget this stuff.

Also, Jordan never left to form a super team.   He made the Bulls great and stayed with them until he was a winner!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiJ0kBnc8vY

This stuff all happened folks.  Can't wait to the Excuselogists explain these things away....

Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #82 on: June 08, 2018, 04:20:22 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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No clay.  That Cavs roster wins like 20 games without Lebron. It sucks. How much playoff success did Kevin Love have prior to cleveland?

Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #83 on: June 08, 2018, 04:21:24 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
No clay.  That Cavs roster wins like 20 games without Lebron. It sucks.

Yeah he is the MVP in the literal sense .

Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #84 on: June 08, 2018, 04:22:40 PM »

Online Monkhouse

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I posted this on Reddit asking if the Cavs would still be in the Finals with prime Jordan in Lebron’s place.

Quote
Not arguing with Jordan's resume.  He was greatest ever.  They dominated their competition back then.  That said, Jordan has a losing record his first 3 seasons carrying a garbage team:

* 1984 age 21:  28 pts, 6 asts, 6.5 rbs, 2.4 stl - Bulls win 38 games
* 1985 age 22:  Jordan only plays 18 games.  Bulls win 30 games
* 1986 age 23:  37.1 pts, 4.6 asts, 5.2 rbs, 2.9 sl  - Bulls win 40 games

Not until 1987 and the arrival of Scottie Pippen did the Bulls win 50 games. 

Pippen always gets overlooked.  The biggest argument in favor of Pippen is that in 1993 during Title #3 for the Bulls, they won 57 games.   Jordan "retires" and the very next season (without Jordan), Pippen carries the Bulls to 55 wins and the second round.  Pippen's averages that season:  22 points, 5.6 assists, 8.7 rebounds, 2.9 steals

So FWIW, Jordan never won 50+ games without Pippen, but Pippen won 50+ games with Jordan.

Consider LeBron's performance when the same age as Jordan's first 3 seasons (in which Jordan finished below .500 every year).   

* 2006 Age 21:  31.4 pts, 6.6 asts, 7 rbs, 1.6 stl. - Cavs win 50
* 2007 age 22:  27.3 pts, 6 ast, 6.7 rbs, 1.6 st.  - Cavs win 50 and make Finals
* 2008 age 23:  30 pts, 7.2 ast, 7.9 rbs, 1.8 stl - Cavs win 45

Jordan finally cracked 50 wins at age 24 during Pippen's rookie season.  At age 24, LeBron won 66 games alongside Mo Williams.

History aside, how do you think this Cavs team plays with prime Jordan in LeBron's spot?  Is he easier to defend?  Harder?  Jordan is significantly smaller than LeBron, doesn't have the same shooting range, and doesnt get his teammates involved as much.  Do they still sweep the Raptors and get through the length of the Celtics? 

Jordan's mid-range shooting in his prime was incredible.  Athletically he was a marvel.  One of the fiercest competitors the league will ever see.  Was he more athletic than LeBron, though?  Does the mid-range shooting offer him that much of an advantage considering the length of defenses like the Celtics?  Is he that much more of a competitor than LeBron? Explain to me why prime Jordan would do a better job carrying this team.

Honest question.  How does it play out?  Don't just say "Obviously cuz Jordan is the greatest"... give me some real reasons.  LeBron got through the Celtics with his size, strength and range.  How does Jordan beat them? 

Everyone just responded “yes jordan would make the finals”.  No actual analysis. It’s lazy.  The Paul Bunyaning of Jordan.  Listen, I saw prime Kobe try to carry teams like this Cavs squad and end up winning 35 games and missing the playoffs.  Granted, prime Kobe was like 60-70% the player jordan was, but it’s food for thought.   Lebron is somehow very underrated.  Consider context when dismissing Lebron losses.  Jordan wasn’t going against a juggernaut stacked with 4 all-nba players (three of the greatest shooters of all time on one team). Instead Jordan was going against mortal pairs like Malone/Stockton or Payton/Kemp - while playing alongside a top 50 player (Pippen) who only saw his team lose 2 less games (57 to 55) when Jordan retired.

Meh, people talked about Love like he was a superstar (even on these forums) and now act like he is complete chopped liver even though he is in his absolute prime at 29 and was an all-star this year. George Hill, Rodney Hood, and Korver have all been really high level role players or in hill's case, an above average starter for many years. Lebron completely dominates their system and we are now meant to believe all these other players are complete crap all of a sudden? I personally think the Lebron has no help narrative is the lazy one.

They have way more talent than the celtics without irving or hayward, but limped by us and people act like it was some herculean effort by Lebron carrying scrubs. 1) They are not scrubs, 2) if he is the best ever he should be able to beat a team led by a rookie and second year player and lifetime role players playing with me you and moranis.
last time Lebron left the Cavs they won 15 games.  If he leaves this group it will be more of the same.

If you are saying it is because they will blow it up tank and will trade love and other good players for picks and prospects I agree. If you are saying the reason the went from winning to 61 to 15 games was just because Lebron left, that is actually a pretty common misunderstanding.

They lost Shaq, who while not a superstar, was still a very good big man averaging 18 points and 10 rebounds Their 3rd and 4th best players (Varejo and Mo Williams, who while not stars, where high level role players went from playing 70 and 76 games to playing 36 and 31. They were gutted further by losing Ilgauskas who himself almost averaged a double double the season before (13 and 9) and Delonte West who was pretty much their second best players in the playoffs.

I am not trying to say that would even be a playoff team if they kept all those guys/they stayed healthy its probably a 32 win team, maybe a little higher  given the weakness of the east.
The 19 win argument is pretty lazy and ignores them gutting their team.

Funny thing is, the lazy narrative is actually repeating now with people acting like a team with Love, Hill, Korver, Thompson, Hood, Clarkson, Nance couldn't compete for a low playoff seed like the Hornets did this year in the east. They are a very similar team and have a 5x all-star that has made two second all-nba teams.

Dude that Cavs team after LeBron left was absolutely dreadful... Let's be honest, even the Hornets now would blow them out 118-90.

No clay.  That Cavs roster wins like 20 games without Lebron. It sucks. How much playoff success did Kevin Love have prior to cleveland?

That is a whole different argument to make since the Wolves were historically one of the best teams to never make the playoffs. Love in 2013-2014 was a whole different monster 26/12/4 is nothing to sneeze at.
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Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #85 on: June 08, 2018, 05:08:18 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I posted this on Reddit asking if the Cavs would still be in the Finals with prime Jordan in Lebron’s place.

Quote
Not arguing with Jordan's resume.  He was greatest ever.  They dominated their competition back then.  That said, Jordan has a losing record his first 3 seasons carrying a garbage team:

* 1984 age 21:  28 pts, 6 asts, 6.5 rbs, 2.4 stl - Bulls win 38 games
* 1985 age 22:  Jordan only plays 18 games.  Bulls win 30 games
* 1986 age 23:  37.1 pts, 4.6 asts, 5.2 rbs, 2.9 sl  - Bulls win 40 games

Not until 1987 and the arrival of Scottie Pippen did the Bulls win 50 games. 

Pippen always gets overlooked.  The biggest argument in favor of Pippen is that in 1993 during Title #3 for the Bulls, they won 57 games.   Jordan "retires" and the very next season (without Jordan), Pippen carries the Bulls to 55 wins and the second round.  Pippen's averages that season:  22 points, 5.6 assists, 8.7 rebounds, 2.9 steals

So FWIW, Jordan never won 50+ games without Pippen, but Pippen won 50+ games with Jordan.

Consider LeBron's performance when the same age as Jordan's first 3 seasons (in which Jordan finished below .500 every year).   

* 2006 Age 21:  31.4 pts, 6.6 asts, 7 rbs, 1.6 stl. - Cavs win 50
* 2007 age 22:  27.3 pts, 6 ast, 6.7 rbs, 1.6 st.  - Cavs win 50 and make Finals
* 2008 age 23:  30 pts, 7.2 ast, 7.9 rbs, 1.8 stl - Cavs win 45

Jordan finally cracked 50 wins at age 24 during Pippen's rookie season.  At age 24, LeBron won 66 games alongside Mo Williams.

History aside, how do you think this Cavs team plays with prime Jordan in LeBron's spot?  Is he easier to defend?  Harder?  Jordan is significantly smaller than LeBron, doesn't have the same shooting range, and doesnt get his teammates involved as much.  Do they still sweep the Raptors and get through the length of the Celtics? 

Jordan's mid-range shooting in his prime was incredible.  Athletically he was a marvel.  One of the fiercest competitors the league will ever see.  Was he more athletic than LeBron, though?  Does the mid-range shooting offer him that much of an advantage considering the length of defenses like the Celtics?  Is he that much more of a competitor than LeBron? Explain to me why prime Jordan would do a better job carrying this team.

Honest question.  How does it play out?  Don't just say "Obviously cuz Jordan is the greatest"... give me some real reasons.  LeBron got through the Celtics with his size, strength and range.  How does Jordan beat them? 

Everyone just responded “yes jordan would make the finals”.  No actual analysis. It’s lazy.  The Paul Bunyaning of Jordan.  Listen, I saw prime Kobe try to carry teams like this Cavs squad and end up winning 35 games and missing the playoffs.  Granted, prime Kobe was like 60-70% the player jordan was, but it’s food for thought.   Lebron is somehow very underrated.  Consider context when dismissing Lebron losses.  Jordan wasn’t going against a juggernaut stacked with 4 all-nba players (three of the greatest shooters of all time on one team). Instead Jordan was going against mortal pairs like Malone/Stockton or Payton/Kemp - while playing alongside a top 50 player (Pippen) who only saw his team lose 2 less games (57 to 55) when Jordan retired.

Meh, people talked about Love like he was a superstar (even on these forums) and now act like he is complete chopped liver even though he is in his absolute prime at 29 and was an all-star this year. George Hill, Rodney Hood, and Korver have all been really high level role players or in hill's case, an above average starter for many years. Lebron completely dominates their system and we are now meant to believe all these other players are complete crap all of a sudden? I personally think the Lebron has no help narrative is the lazy one.

They have way more talent than the celtics without irving or hayward, but limped by us and people act like it was some herculean effort by Lebron carrying scrubs. 1) They are not scrubs, 2) if he is the best ever he should be able to beat a team led by a rookie and second year player and lifetime role players playing with me you and moranis.
This year in the ECF, Boston had 6 of the top 8 or 7 of the top 9 players in the series.  I think you would be hard pressed to argue that Hill, Korver, etc. were better than Horford, Tatum, Brown, Rozier, Morris, or Smart.  I think you could realistically argue Baynes is also better than those players.  Obviously James was by the far best player in that series and frankly Love might have been the 2nd best, but 3 to 15 the Celtics were far more talented and better across the board and it wasn't close. 

Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #86 on: June 08, 2018, 05:11:44 PM »

Online celticsclay

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No clay.  That Cavs roster wins like 20 games without Lebron. It sucks. How much playoff success did Kevin Love have prior to cleveland?

lol

I'll indulge you for old times sake my friends

New York Knicks
Hardaway (57 games)
Porzingas (48 games)
Enes Kanter
Michael Beaseley
Jarrett Jack
Courtney Lee
Kyle O'Quinn

wins 29 games

Cavs
Kevin Love
George Hill
Rodney Hood
Larry Nance
Tristan Thompson
Jr Smith
Kyle Korver
8th pick in draft

Wins 10 less games somehow

Got it... lol

Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #87 on: June 08, 2018, 05:15:11 PM »

Online celticsclay

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I posted this on Reddit asking if the Cavs would still be in the Finals with prime Jordan in Lebron’s place.

Quote
Not arguing with Jordan's resume.  He was greatest ever.  They dominated their competition back then.  That said, Jordan has a losing record his first 3 seasons carrying a garbage team:

* 1984 age 21:  28 pts, 6 asts, 6.5 rbs, 2.4 stl - Bulls win 38 games
* 1985 age 22:  Jordan only plays 18 games.  Bulls win 30 games
* 1986 age 23:  37.1 pts, 4.6 asts, 5.2 rbs, 2.9 sl  - Bulls win 40 games

Not until 1987 and the arrival of Scottie Pippen did the Bulls win 50 games. 

Pippen always gets overlooked.  The biggest argument in favor of Pippen is that in 1993 during Title #3 for the Bulls, they won 57 games.   Jordan "retires" and the very next season (without Jordan), Pippen carries the Bulls to 55 wins and the second round.  Pippen's averages that season:  22 points, 5.6 assists, 8.7 rebounds, 2.9 steals

So FWIW, Jordan never won 50+ games without Pippen, but Pippen won 50+ games with Jordan.

Consider LeBron's performance when the same age as Jordan's first 3 seasons (in which Jordan finished below .500 every year).   

* 2006 Age 21:  31.4 pts, 6.6 asts, 7 rbs, 1.6 stl. - Cavs win 50
* 2007 age 22:  27.3 pts, 6 ast, 6.7 rbs, 1.6 st.  - Cavs win 50 and make Finals
* 2008 age 23:  30 pts, 7.2 ast, 7.9 rbs, 1.8 stl - Cavs win 45

Jordan finally cracked 50 wins at age 24 during Pippen's rookie season.  At age 24, LeBron won 66 games alongside Mo Williams.

History aside, how do you think this Cavs team plays with prime Jordan in LeBron's spot?  Is he easier to defend?  Harder?  Jordan is significantly smaller than LeBron, doesn't have the same shooting range, and doesnt get his teammates involved as much.  Do they still sweep the Raptors and get through the length of the Celtics? 

Jordan's mid-range shooting in his prime was incredible.  Athletically he was a marvel.  One of the fiercest competitors the league will ever see.  Was he more athletic than LeBron, though?  Does the mid-range shooting offer him that much of an advantage considering the length of defenses like the Celtics?  Is he that much more of a competitor than LeBron? Explain to me why prime Jordan would do a better job carrying this team.

Honest question.  How does it play out?  Don't just say "Obviously cuz Jordan is the greatest"... give me some real reasons.  LeBron got through the Celtics with his size, strength and range.  How does Jordan beat them? 

Everyone just responded “yes jordan would make the finals”.  No actual analysis. It’s lazy.  The Paul Bunyaning of Jordan.  Listen, I saw prime Kobe try to carry teams like this Cavs squad and end up winning 35 games and missing the playoffs.  Granted, prime Kobe was like 60-70% the player jordan was, but it’s food for thought.   Lebron is somehow very underrated.  Consider context when dismissing Lebron losses.  Jordan wasn’t going against a juggernaut stacked with 4 all-nba players (three of the greatest shooters of all time on one team). Instead Jordan was going against mortal pairs like Malone/Stockton or Payton/Kemp - while playing alongside a top 50 player (Pippen) who only saw his team lose 2 less games (57 to 55) when Jordan retired.

Meh, people talked about Love like he was a superstar (even on these forums) and now act like he is complete chopped liver even though he is in his absolute prime at 29 and was an all-star this year. George Hill, Rodney Hood, and Korver have all been really high level role players or in hill's case, an above average starter for many years. Lebron completely dominates their system and we are now meant to believe all these other players are complete crap all of a sudden? I personally think the Lebron has no help narrative is the lazy one.

They have way more talent than the celtics without irving or hayward, but limped by us and people act like it was some herculean effort by Lebron carrying scrubs. 1) They are not scrubs, 2) if he is the best ever he should be able to beat a team led by a rookie and second year player and lifetime role players playing with me you and moranis.
This year in the ECF, Boston had 6 of the top 8 or 7 of the top 9 players in the series.  I think you would be hard pressed to argue that Hill, Korver, etc. were better than Horford, Tatum, Brown, Rozier, Morris, or Smart.  I think you could realistically argue Baynes is also better than those players.  Obviously James was by the far best player in that series and frankly Love might have been the 2nd best, but 3 to 15 the Celtics were far more talented and better across the board and it wasn't close.

Moranis, you got some cajones even making that argument after your barrage of posts talking how great the guys they got at the deadline were. I don't have any interest in arguing you with you on your 180's but I can pull up some posts from 4 months ago that would make this new take pretty embarrassing for you.

Here is one from March: "They have better individual defenders this year then they did last year and they entered last year playing as a bottom 3 defense for the entire second half of the year before turning it on in the playoffs and finishing as a top 3 defense in the playoffs.  Obviously, they will miss Irving's scoring and ability to take games over, but Hill is a better defender and better 3 point shooter than Irving (Irving is obviously a much much better player).  Instead of Smith, Shumpert, and Deron Williams, they will have Hood, Smith, and Clarkson, which is a much better 3 some on both ends of the floor.  Korver is Korver and Thompson is Thompson, though Thompson will get far less minutes this year and will come off the bench rather than start.  They will replace Frye and R. Jefferson with Green and Nance.  They have guys like Osman and Zizic on the deep bench instead of Derrick Williams, James Jones, and Dahntay Jones.

In other words, defensively they have the potential to be far better then they were last year, when they were blowing teams out in the East and a top 3 defensive team in the playoffs. "

So they were potentially better than last year despite losing Irving, but 3 months later they are all worse than Smart, Rozier, Morris and potentially baynes? I mean... what the...
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 05:37:09 PM by celticsclay »

Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #88 on: June 08, 2018, 05:16:34 PM »

Online celticsclay

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I posted this on Reddit asking if the Cavs would still be in the Finals with prime Jordan in Lebron’s place.

Quote
Not arguing with Jordan's resume.  He was greatest ever.  They dominated their competition back then.  That said, Jordan has a losing record his first 3 seasons carrying a garbage team:

* 1984 age 21:  28 pts, 6 asts, 6.5 rbs, 2.4 stl - Bulls win 38 games
* 1985 age 22:  Jordan only plays 18 games.  Bulls win 30 games
* 1986 age 23:  37.1 pts, 4.6 asts, 5.2 rbs, 2.9 sl  - Bulls win 40 games

Not until 1987 and the arrival of Scottie Pippen did the Bulls win 50 games. 

Pippen always gets overlooked.  The biggest argument in favor of Pippen is that in 1993 during Title #3 for the Bulls, they won 57 games.   Jordan "retires" and the very next season (without Jordan), Pippen carries the Bulls to 55 wins and the second round.  Pippen's averages that season:  22 points, 5.6 assists, 8.7 rebounds, 2.9 steals

So FWIW, Jordan never won 50+ games without Pippen, but Pippen won 50+ games with Jordan.

Consider LeBron's performance when the same age as Jordan's first 3 seasons (in which Jordan finished below .500 every year).   

* 2006 Age 21:  31.4 pts, 6.6 asts, 7 rbs, 1.6 stl. - Cavs win 50
* 2007 age 22:  27.3 pts, 6 ast, 6.7 rbs, 1.6 st.  - Cavs win 50 and make Finals
* 2008 age 23:  30 pts, 7.2 ast, 7.9 rbs, 1.8 stl - Cavs win 45

Jordan finally cracked 50 wins at age 24 during Pippen's rookie season.  At age 24, LeBron won 66 games alongside Mo Williams.

History aside, how do you think this Cavs team plays with prime Jordan in LeBron's spot?  Is he easier to defend?  Harder?  Jordan is significantly smaller than LeBron, doesn't have the same shooting range, and doesnt get his teammates involved as much.  Do they still sweep the Raptors and get through the length of the Celtics? 

Jordan's mid-range shooting in his prime was incredible.  Athletically he was a marvel.  One of the fiercest competitors the league will ever see.  Was he more athletic than LeBron, though?  Does the mid-range shooting offer him that much of an advantage considering the length of defenses like the Celtics?  Is he that much more of a competitor than LeBron? Explain to me why prime Jordan would do a better job carrying this team.

Honest question.  How does it play out?  Don't just say "Obviously cuz Jordan is the greatest"... give me some real reasons.  LeBron got through the Celtics with his size, strength and range.  How does Jordan beat them? 

Everyone just responded “yes jordan would make the finals”.  No actual analysis. It’s lazy.  The Paul Bunyaning of Jordan.  Listen, I saw prime Kobe try to carry teams like this Cavs squad and end up winning 35 games and missing the playoffs.  Granted, prime Kobe was like 60-70% the player jordan was, but it’s food for thought.   Lebron is somehow very underrated.  Consider context when dismissing Lebron losses.  Jordan wasn’t going against a juggernaut stacked with 4 all-nba players (three of the greatest shooters of all time on one team). Instead Jordan was going against mortal pairs like Malone/Stockton or Payton/Kemp - while playing alongside a top 50 player (Pippen) who only saw his team lose 2 less games (57 to 55) when Jordan retired.

Meh, people talked about Love like he was a superstar (even on these forums) and now act like he is complete chopped liver even though he is in his absolute prime at 29 and was an all-star this year. George Hill, Rodney Hood, and Korver have all been really high level role players or in hill's case, an above average starter for many years. Lebron completely dominates their system and we are now meant to believe all these other players are complete crap all of a sudden? I personally think the Lebron has no help narrative is the lazy one.

They have way more talent than the celtics without irving or hayward, but limped by us and people act like it was some herculean effort by Lebron carrying scrubs. 1) They are not scrubs, 2) if he is the best ever he should be able to beat a team led by a rookie and second year player and lifetime role players playing with me you and moranis.
last time Lebron left the Cavs they won 15 games.  If he leaves this group it will be more of the same.

If you are saying it is because they will blow it up tank and will trade love and other good players for picks and prospects I agree. If you are saying the reason the went from winning to 61 to 15 games was just because Lebron left, that is actually a pretty common misunderstanding.

They lost Shaq, who while not a superstar, was still a very good big man averaging 18 points and 10 rebounds Their 3rd and 4th best players (Varejo and Mo Williams, who while not stars, where high level role players went from playing 70 and 76 games to playing 36 and 31. They were gutted further by losing Ilgauskas who himself almost averaged a double double the season before (13 and 9) and Delonte West who was pretty much their second best players in the playoffs.

I am not trying to say that would even be a playoff team if they kept all those guys/they stayed healthy its probably a 32 win team, maybe a little higher  given the weakness of the east.
The 19 win argument is pretty lazy and ignores them gutting their team.

Funny thing is, the lazy narrative is actually repeating now with people acting like a team with Love, Hill, Korver, Thompson, Hood, Clarkson, Nance couldn't compete for a low playoff seed like the Hornets did this year in the east. They are a very similar team and have a 5x all-star that has made two second all-nba teams.

Dude that Cavs team after LeBron left was absolutely dreadful... Let's be honest, even the Hornets now would blow them out 118-90.

No clay.  That Cavs roster wins like 20 games without Lebron. It sucks. How much playoff success did Kevin Love have prior to cleveland?

That is a whole different argument to make since the Wolves were historically one of the best teams to never make the playoffs. Love in 2013-2014 was a whole different monster 26/12/4 is nothing to sneeze at.

Monkhouse did you just gloss over my entire post where I pointed out all the other guys they lost at the same time as Lebron?

Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #89 on: June 09, 2018, 05:33:54 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Has Jordan ever been swept?

Yes by us with Larry Bird and the crew early in his career but never in the finals.

Jordan now 6-0 in finals and LBJ has lost 6 and won three........
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 05:41:50 AM by Celtics4ever »