Poll

Who is the GOAT?

MJ
28 (56%)
LJ
5 (10%)
other
17 (34%)

Total Members Voted: 50

Author Topic: MJ vs LJ  (Read 1845 times)

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Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2018, 10:33:54 AM »

Offline perks-a-beast

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Jordan played defense every possession...LBJ does not

Jordan was a better teammate and leader

Jordan is 6-0 on the biggest of stages.
Jordan playing defense every possession is the funniest thing I've read on here in a very long time. 

Jordan most certainly was not a better teammate and it is arguable that he was a better leader.  Different type of leader, but certainly arguable he was better.

Jordan also failed to reach the Finals 9 of his 15 seasons and got his 6 wins in the weakest (or 2nd weakest) decade of basketball the sport has ever seen.  I mean when he took his break, the Rockets won a title with Otis Thorpe as the 2nd best player on that team.  OTIS THORPE.

Gotta agree with all this. TP. People rarely talk about just how weak the 90's were for the league.
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Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2018, 10:39:18 AM »

Offline Androslav

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Jordan played defense every possession...LBJ does not

Jordan was a better teammate and leader

Jordan is 6-0 on the biggest of stages.
Jordan playing defense every possession is the funniest thing I've read on here in a very long time. 

Jordan most certainly was not a better teammate and it is arguable that he was a better leader.  Different type of leader, but certainly arguable he was better.

Jordan also failed to reach the Finals 9 of his 15 seasons and got his 6 wins in the weakest (or 2nd weakest) decade of basketball the sport has ever seen.  I mean when he took his break, the Rockets won a title with Otis Thorpe as the 2nd best player on that team.  OTIS THORPE.
Incorrect as usual. I have to correct. Thorpe was just a cog on that team. He was basicaly standing at the dunker spot waiting. He couldn't dribble, pass or shoot, nor was he an emotional leader. Otis was just a good soldier, somewhere between the 4th and 5h best player that year. 12% usage those finals. Solid guy, but limited. IMO. Mad Max, Kenny, Cassell, Horry even Herrera off the bench had bigger or similar impact. These guys could all shoot, dribble and pass.

Also the 40s, 50s, 70s and 2000 were weaker than the 90s.
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Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2018, 10:56:31 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Jordan played defense every possession...LBJ does not

Jordan was a better teammate and leader

Jordan is 6-0 on the biggest of stages.
Jordan playing defense every possession is the funniest thing I've read on here in a very long time. 

Jordan most certainly was not a better teammate and it is arguable that he was a better leader.  Different type of leader, but certainly arguable he was better.

Jordan also failed to reach the Finals 9 of his 15 seasons and got his 6 wins in the weakest (or 2nd weakest) decade of basketball the sport has ever seen.  I mean when he took his break, the Rockets won a title with Otis Thorpe as the 2nd best player on that team.  OTIS THORPE.
Incorrect as usual. I have to correct. Thorpe was just a cog on that team. He was basicaly standing at the dunker spot waiting. He couldn't dribble, pass or shoot, nor was he an emotional leader. Otis was just a good soldier, somewhere between the 4th and 5h best player that year. 12% usage those finals. Solid guy, but limited. IMO. Mad Max, Kenny, Cassell, Horry even Herrera off the bench had bigger or similar impact. These guys could all shoot, dribble and pass.

Also the 40s, 50s, 70s and 2000 were weaker than the 90s.
Otis Thorpe wasn't the 2nd offensive option, but he was absolutely the 2nd best player on that team.  During the regular season he had 9.8 WS.  Kenny Smith was 3rd on the team with 6.1, Horry was 4th with 5.9, and Elie was 5th with 4.2.  Now during the playoffs, Horry and Thorpe had nearly identical WS (2.5 to 2.4), but the whole season is far more representative of there respective positions. 

The 2000's was a much better decade than the 1990's.  It isn't close.  The 70's are the only possible decade on par with the crap that was the 90's.  And the reason for those are obvious i.e. widespread expansion.  When a league expands it initially dilutes a lot and leads to a far crappier product before it ultimately evens out.  In addition, the early 90's saw a rash of the league's stars get injured (Bird), get sick (Magic), or just dramatically and suddenly age (Thomas).  Leaving a vacuum of top end talent missing that should have been there. 

Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2018, 10:56:35 AM »

Offline perks-a-beast

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Tell me again how the 2000's were weaker than the 90's...? Not sure anyone would agree with that.
Two choices - the pain of discipline or the pain of regret. The pain of regret hurts a whole lot more.

Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2018, 11:07:00 AM »

Offline CelticsElite

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Russell is the goat

Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2018, 11:11:01 AM »

Online celticinorlando

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Physically Jordan played in a much tougher era. Anyone denying his greatness needs to do some research.

James is a team destroyer. Has done it twice now. So getting to the finals means something? There is a reason the Celtics do not hang banners for that. It is pointless.

Jordan was all NBA Defensive first team 9 times. Please don't give me that garbage he did play defense.
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Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2018, 11:27:03 AM »

Offline Big333223

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I don't tweet but I do have twitter and this came across my feed a few weeks ago and I keep thinking about it. Someone asked Kevin Van Valkenburg (apparently an ESPN writer) what is your most biased sports opinion that you think is true no matter what? This was his answer:

Quote
Michael Jordan convinced a generation of sports fans (and athletes) that "greatness" had to be a joyless, obsessive, faux-alpha, corporate endeavor that required humiliating opponents, and 90 percent of bad sports takes can be traced back to people treating it as gospel.

I think this is right. Greatness looks a lot of different ways. Magic could be a nice guy and still be driven. Bird could be obsessive and talk trash but he didn't need the world to think he was great (just his peers). Russell could let others have the glory as long as he got the win. Tim Duncan didn't need to embarrass people.

Like I said before, Jordan is probably the GOAT. But there are real criticisms of the way he played and the way he led that have been dismissed for a long time in service of the cult of Jordan, I think.
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Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2018, 11:47:59 AM »

Offline hpantazo

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It’s neither of these guys. The answer is Bill Russell. Anything else is just plain wrong

Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2018, 11:50:21 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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Btw those two?  It's a tough question.  Both have their pluses & minuses.

Too many people on here wrapped up in either recency bias or romanticism of the past.


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Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2018, 11:50:38 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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Jordan played defense every possession...LBJ does not

Jordan was a better teammate and leader

Jordan is 6-0 on the biggest of stages.
Jordan playing defense every possession is the funniest thing I've read on here in a very long time. 

Jordan most certainly was not a better teammate and it is arguable that he was a better leader.  Different type of leader, but certainly arguable he was better.

Jordan also failed to reach the Finals 9 of his 15 seasons and got his 6 wins in the weakest (or 2nd weakest) decade of basketball the sport has ever seen.  I mean when he took his break, the Rockets won a title with Otis Thorpe as the 2nd best player on that team.  OTIS THORPE.
Incorrect as usual. I have to correct. Thorpe was just a cog on that team. He was basicaly standing at the dunker spot waiting. He couldn't dribble, pass or shoot, nor was he an emotional leader. Otis was just a good soldier, somewhere between the 4th and 5h best player that year. 12% usage those finals. Solid guy, but limited. IMO. Mad Max, Kenny, Cassell, Horry even Herrera off the bench had bigger or similar impact. These guys could all shoot, dribble and pass.

Also the 40s, 50s, 70s and 2000 were weaker than the 90s.
Otis Thorpe wasn't the 2nd offensive option, but he was absolutely the 2nd best player on that team.  During the regular season he had 9.8 WS.  Kenny Smith was 3rd on the team with 6.1, Horry was 4th with 5.9, and Elie was 5th with 4.2.  Now during the playoffs, Horry and Thorpe had nearly identical WS (2.5 to 2.4), but the whole season is far more representative of there respective positions. 

The 2000's was a much better decade than the 1990's.  It isn't close.  The 70's are the only possible decade on par with the crap that was the 90's.  And the reason for those are obvious i.e. widespread expansion.  When a league expands it initially dilutes a lot and leads to a far crappier product before it ultimately evens out.  In addition, the early 90's saw a rash of the league's stars get injured (Bird), get sick (Magic), or just dramatically and suddenly age (Thomas).  Leaving a vacuum of top end talent missing that should have been there. 
I don't often agree with you but you're pretty dead on with this.  Otis was definitely considered the 2nd best player on that team that year. 

90's teams were not comprised of multiple all-stars.  IMHO, it's big factor in why Jordan was successful in that era with teammates like a matured-Pippen and matured-Grant on his first 3-peat and then with Pippen, Kukoc and Rodman on his next run.  He had a number of good role players on his teams but that era of basketball was 1 or 2 top players on a contender and a number of role players.  Jordan was the best player and he had the best second banana and a pretty solid supporting cast.  that's all it took to win back then
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 12:30:12 PM by slamtheking »

Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2018, 11:57:56 AM »

Offline GratefulCs

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Larry Johnson was a hell of a player, but MJ was definitely better

wait... what?
I trust Danny Ainge

Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2018, 12:23:25 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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If Tom Brady was 2-6 in Superbowls no one in football would think he was the GOAT over a 4-0 Montana. The idea that a 3-6 Lebron is better than a 6-0 MJ is comical.

Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2018, 12:28:44 PM »

Online celticsclay

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Do we really need another thread of Moranis arguing with like 15 people about how great Lebron is? This topic couldn't be more dead and I have never seen anyone change their mind.

Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2018, 01:53:33 PM »

Offline Androslav

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Larry Johnson was a hell of a player, but MJ was definitely better

wait... what?
Even though I started the tread, I have to admit I deleted the middle B a couple of times. Larry is also my first LJ, but I fell for it due to aesthetic appeal.
"The joy of the balling under the rims."

Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2018, 01:55:04 PM »

Offline GratefulCs

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Larry Johnson was a hell of a player, but MJ was definitely better

wait... what?
Even though I started the tread, I have to admit I deleted the middle B a couple of times. Larry is also my first LJ, but I fell for it due to aesthetic appeal.
TP
I trust Danny Ainge