Just Say No

[KungPoweChicken]

Not going to happen and I don't want it to happen. This would be like signing Barry Bonds in the early 2000s when he had a 1.400 OPS in a bid to finally beat the Yankees. I'd rather take my chances with three all-stars, two budding superstars and a deep bench and see what happens.

Well, we signed Manny.  Does that lessen your enjoyment of the titles?

You know and I know that's not an apples to apples comparison. But yes, in some small way, it does lessen it.

It’s pretty close to apples. Bonds was better, but both were offensive savants who were paid tons of money to cheat.

I loved that 2003 team, and I cherish the 2004 title. 

Any titles earned by Lebron in green would be pretty sweet.

I feel like it's time science is embraced. Do fans really look at PED use as "cheating" still? I don't.

[Ed Hollison]

This would be like signing Barry Bonds in the early 2000s when he had a 1.400 OPS in a bid to finally beat the Yankees.

We know Bond used PEDs and many think that Lebron has as well, did you mean to make that analogy?

Yes, and specifically: A sillly level of performance that is head and shoulders above all other world class athletes in one's league, at an age that is typically past one's prime in one's sport, and is almost certainly drug related. I know people hate hearing me beat this drum but this is the main issue with Lebron. He's basically Barry Bonds at this point, and no one in basketball has the guts to say it. Wouldn't feel right rooting for that, what can I say.

Plus, when he's on your team the whole narrative becomes about him. There is no acknowledgement of the team around him by the media, and I think his personality and ego contribute to it. The focus is always Lebron. I think this is why Irving was desperate to leave Cleveland.

[Big333223]

This would be like signing Barry Bonds in the early 2000s when he had a 1.400 OPS in a bid to finally beat the Yankees.

We know Bond used PEDs and many think that Lebron has as well, did you mean to make that analogy?

Yes, and specifically: A sillly level of performance that is head and shoulders above all other world class athletes in one's league, at an age that is typically past one's prime in one's sport, and is almost certainly drug related. I know people hate hearing me beat this drum but this is the main issue with Lebron. He's basically Barry Bonds at this point, and no one in basketball has the guts to say it. Wouldn't feel right rooting for that, what can I say.

Plus, when he's on your team the whole narrative becomes about him. There is no acknowledgement of the team around him by the media, and I think his personality and ego contribute to it. The focus is always Lebron. I think this is why Irving was desperate to leave Cleveland.

Is there any evidence that Lebron takes PeDs? Him still playing at an MVP level at age 33 is not, in and of itself evidence of PeD use.

Nor is it totally unprecedented. Bigs like Kareem and Malone and, to a lesser degree, Dirk, Parish, and Pau Gasol played at all star levels into their late 30's. Kobe was putting up 27-6-6 at 34. Jordan led the league in scoring at the same age. Even with all his health issues, Bird averaged 24-9.5-7.5 at age 33. 

It's rare and Lebron is a freak but we have seen players at this age play at high levels. And it's not like Lebron hasn't lost a step. There was the report that he's the slowest player in the league, by average speed while on the court, because he takes off so many plays and just stands around or walks. And his physical freakness isn't something that came out of nowhere. At 18, everyone thought he was fully developed but he just wasn't done growing yet (the same way no man is done growing by 18).

Anyway, that's all to say his play alone isn't evidence of cheating. Is there any other evidence?

[Ed Hollison]

Is there any evidence that Lebron takes PeDs? Him still playing at an MVP level at age 33 is not, in and of itself evidence of PeD use.

This is uncomfortable for everyone to talk about, but we should. Honestly I'm surprised how much benefit of the doubt people are eager to give Lebron, and athletes in general.

You are right that there is no hard physical evidence that Lebron (or anyone currently playing in the league) is cheating. There is only circumstantial evidence. But there is a lot.

1) The NBA drug testing program is extremely easy to game. I think this is intentional.
2) Lebron is appreciably more athletic, more explosive, stronger, bigger, and muscular than he was at age 25, typically the peak of a man's testosterone levels. This should make sense, given that doping can have a cumulative effect over time. (If your instinct is to scoff at this, just watch highlights of game 7 of the ECF against the Celtics in 2010, which is considered one of the more brilliant games of his early career. He was appreciably less muscular and explosive back then.) Heck, if you ask me he's bigger and more explosive now than he was just one or two years ago.
3) Lebron has played 15 years in the league already, just led the entire league in minutes played in the regular season, has played about 100 more playoff minutes than anyone else this year, and is still consistently the most explosive guy on the court at age 33. He also virtually never gets injured, and when he does he heals quickly. It's possible that "he's just a freak" or "he's so smart he knows when to rest during games", but honestly I think those explanations are less likely that the obvious one.
4) His face has clearly changed over time in a way that doesn't look like normal aging. Again, this is uncomfortable to talk about and there is no smoking gun, but we know that there is something called acromegaly related to prolonged HGH use.

This is all circumstantial. I get it. And again, there is no doubt that other players are likely using. There are probably guys on the Celtics that are using. But Lebron's case is truly unique, because he has almost singlehandedly changed the course of NBA history. His teams have won the Eastern Conference for 8 straight years and he's now considered an all-time great. I already feel extremely conflicted about this, and I for me at least it has made being a basketball fan less enjoyable. I would probably feel even more conflicted if he were on my team. And I suspect that this whole thing won't end up well for him, either a couple years from now or 20 years from now, in which case I'm not sure I want the Boston Celtics associated with that.

[Ed Hollison]

Can I just add that I know of no player who played at a high level in his early-to-mid 30s who actually became more physically dominant at that age. Jordan certainly wasn't. He was much more explosive as a younger player. The reason he was so good in is 30s was that even though he'd lost half a step, he was much smarter and cannier and still had enough left in the tank.

[BitterJim]

Not going to happen and I don't want it to happen. This would be like signing Barry Bonds in the early 2000s when he had a 1.400 OPS in a bid to finally beat the Yankees. I'd rather take my chances with three all-stars, two budding superstars and a deep bench and see what happens.

Well, we signed Manny.  Does that lessen your enjoyment of the titles?

You know and I know that's not an apples to apples comparison. But yes, in some small way, it does lessen it.

It’s pretty close to apples. Bonds was better, but both were offensive savants who were paid tons of money to cheat.

I loved that 2003 team, and I cherish the 2004 title. 

Any titles earned by Lebron in green would be pretty sweet.

I feel like it's time science is embraced. Do fans really look at PED use as "cheating" still? I don't.

It's doing something blatantly against the rules with the intent of giving yourself an (unfair) advantage.  If they were allowed, it would be a different discussion (as is the discussion of whether or not they should be allowed), but they aren't.

In what way is it *not* cheating?

[Big333223]

Is there any evidence that Lebron takes PeDs? Him still playing at an MVP level at age 33 is not, in and of itself evidence of PeD use.

This is uncomfortable for everyone to talk about, but we should. Honestly I'm surprised how much benefit of the doubt people are eager to give Lebron, and athletes in general.

You are right that there is no hard physical evidence that Lebron (or anyone currently playing in the league) is cheating. There is only circumstantial evidence. But there is a lot.

1) The NBA drug testing program is extremely easy to game. I think this is intentional.
2) Lebron is appreciably more athletic, more explosive, stronger, bigger, and muscular than he was at age 25, typically the peak of a man's testosterone levels. This should make sense, given that doping can have a cumulative effect over time. (If your instinct is to scoff at this, just watch highlights of game 7 of the ECF against the Celtics in 2010, which is considered one of the more brilliant games of his early career. He was appreciably less muscular and explosive back then.) Heck, if you ask me he's bigger and more explosive now than he was just one or two years ago.
3) Lebron has played 15 years in the league already, just led the entire league in minutes played in the regular season, has played about 100 more playoff minutes than anyone else this year, and is still consistently the most explosive guy on the court at age 33. He also virtually never gets injured, and when he does he heals quickly. It's possible that "he's just a freak" or "he's so smart he knows when to rest during games", but honestly I think those explanations are less likely that the obvious one.
4) His face has clearly changed over time in a way that doesn't look like normal aging. Again, this is uncomfortable to talk about and there is no smoking gun, but we know that there is something called acromegaly related to prolonged HGH use.

This is all circumstantial. I get it. And again, there is no doubt that other players are likely using. There are probably guys on the Celtics that are using. But Lebron's case is truly unique, because he has almost singlehandedly changed the course of NBA history. His teams have won the Eastern Conference for 8 straight years and he's now considered an all-time great. I already feel extremely conflicted about this, and I for me at least it has made being a basketball fan less enjoyable. I would probably feel even more conflicted if he were on my team. And I suspect that this whole thing won't end up well for him, either a couple years from now or 20 years from now, in which case I'm not sure I want the Boston Celtics associated with that.

I would disagree with just about all of this. The weak drug testing is not, itself, evidence of anything. Players (and people) tend to get bulkier as they get older, James is no different. I don't think he's more explosive now than he ever was, he's always been an amazing athlete. His health is amazing but, again, not totally unprecedented (Malone, Kareem). And I find it hard to imagine what "normal" facial aging is. Everyone is different.