Author Topic: Is Kyrie worth a Super Max?  (Read 5370 times)

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Re: Is Kyrie worth a Super Max?
« Reply #45 on: June 07, 2018, 07:19:46 PM »

Offline Dino Pitino

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I'm normally all for paying for elite talent being worth it, even if they're "just" all-stars and not MVP because that's what you need to do.

But Westbrook/Wall supermaxes are contracts that I think are going to be very bad pretty quickly. Kyrie is a bit younger so if he were eligible I'd be somewhat less concerned but still worried.


I think Kyrie is going to age a lot better than Westbrook or Wall.  I'd also rather have Kyrie right now than either of those guys.

Same. I think Kyrie could be a great player into his mid-30's.
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Re: Is Kyrie worth a Super Max?
« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2018, 07:49:27 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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I'm normally all for paying for elite talent being worth it, even if they're "just" all-stars and not MVP because that's what you need to do.

But Westbrook/Wall supermaxes are contracts that I think are going to be very bad pretty quickly. Kyrie is a bit younger so if he were eligible I'd be somewhat less concerned but still worried.

Fortunately for the C's he's "just" going to be eligible to make 32 million per year instead of 38 million per year assuming the salary cap project is accurate.

Westbrook and Wall aren't as good as Kyrie, come on now
yeah they are better.
Wall is? They pretty much have the exact same accolades (5 all-star appearances, 1 3rd team all NBA) but Kyrie has a history of performing in the post-season. Kyrie has also gotten his accolades in one less season. I also think everyone agrees Kyrie would have been all second NBA team this year if he had not gotten hurt (he was a top 10 MVP candidate easily while he played). Headscratcher to say Wall is better.
https://www.si.com/nba/2017/09/11/top-100-nba-players-2018-list-rankings

John Wall 13th, Kyrie Irving 21st

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank1130/nbarank-players-11-30

John Wall 15th, Kyrie Irving 25th


Both of them missed a bunch of games this season, but John Wall was 3rd Team All NBA in 16/17 and finished 7th in MVP voting.  Kyrie Irving made the 3rd Team in 14/15, but hasn't since and has never received MVP votes. 


John Wall is better than Kyrie Irving.  At least by the most recent award voting and according to the "experts" at both ESPN and Sports Illustrated.

The fact you used ESPN/Sports Illustrated as your proof tells me enough... Like come on Moranis, you're way better than this. So you'll take John Wall's super max contract right now for Kyrie Irving?

plus 1 on using ESPN/SI rankings designed to spur debate and clicks as your argument. LOL Some days you slay me man.
you said it was a head scratcher, and yet the two major sports publications in this country both had Wall rated as a better player than Irving entering the year. 

Irving is a much better shooter than Wall, no question or debate there, but Wall does pretty much everything else better.  He is a much better passer.  He is a better rebounder.  He is a much better defender (including generating steals and blocks at a much higher rate).  Both missed a bunch of games, but Wall finished the year and in the playoffs went for 26/11.5/5.7/2.3/1.3.  Last year on the 49 win Wizards team that was a game from the ECF, he went for 27.2/10.3/3.7/1.7/1.2, so this year wasn't a fluke. 

John Wall is better than Kyrie Irving.  The overall stats support that statement.  The eye test supports that statement.  The experts support that statement.  I'm not taking some crazy position with that statement.

Your list from the crossover has Draymond Green as the 10th best player in the league (this is ridiculous). It has Jae Crowder as the 44th best player ahead of Steve Adams (this has never been a fair take). It has Eric Bledsoe as better than Joel Embid. It has Krhis Middleton ahead of Derozen for christ sake. You know darn well it is garbage and you are just drying to drown people in garbage and hope they don't notice. Again it is laughable evidence to provide.

The actual relevant evidence is that Irving has made the same amount of all-star teams, the same amount of all-nba teams and has performed better and won in a championship in one less season. If Irving had not gotten injured this year he almost certainly would have surpassed Wall in all-nba teams. It is that simple.

While I don't agree with the other rankings that you mentioned, Middleton is much better than Derozan, imo.

In your opinion of course, other than being a better shooter, and potentially a better defender. (I've actually found Middleton's defense slightly overrated.) Middleton is what he is. A great 3 and D player that is possibly perennial Allstar, but never achieved it. DeRozan is a 4x time Allstar, who has choked to LeBron, but... How many players have honestly stepped up to LeBron and come out victorious? Other than FG%, (and that's because DeRozan is their 1st option,) and 3pt shooting %, they have literally identical numbers with DeRozan scoring more, and getting to the line a lot more.

I get that DeRozan has been overrated, but the notion that Middleton is that much better than DeRozan really isn't giving him any credit at all.

To put it into perspective, DeMar has been in the league for 3 extra years than Middleton. He's already scored 2x the amount that Middleton has been in the league. 13296 vs. 5722.

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/demar_derozan_vs_khris_middleton.htm

Middleton is hardly a 3 and D player, dude. That's just ridiculous, imo. He's very intelligent, an excellent defender and passer, can post up, play without the ball, and has much better range than Derozan, who, owing to his need to have the, well, ball in his hands all the time, really hurts Toronto's half-court offense, imo. Plus, Middleton is actually clutch. I get that Demar is the better athlete, but that's the only edge that I'd give to him over Khris, but I'm weird :-\.

I get your points and agree with them. But both players are still great players even if DeMar DeRozan hasn't been as successful as he should've been.

Yeah, I guess that I can see that. It's just that after all of his postseason failures, whether he was playing against Lebron or not, Derozan, like Lowry, seems, well, like a great fantasy superstar, but not so much in real life :-\. Maybe he should go team up with Lebron, lol ;D.

Re: Is Kyrie worth a Super Max?
« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2018, 08:07:49 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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I think this season will prove he is worth that

Re: Is Kyrie worth a Super Max?
« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2018, 08:25:29 PM »

Offline Fireworks_Boom!

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I believe Kyrie to be THE most important piece to our plan to compete for a championship moving forward. I don't get how he has fallen from grace so quickly. I guess absence doesnt make the heart grow fonder.

He seamlessly fit into our system and in many regards improved. CBS proved an ability to get even more out of him in terms of creating/passing and scoring.

I can not wait for him to return to this lineup. And Hayward too...my God. I can't remember an offseason where I had more anticipation for the next season so quickly from the end of the last season.

Re: Is Kyrie worth a Super Max?
« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2018, 08:41:01 PM »

Offline 86MaxwellSmart

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They should have a Super Min contract...like $500 a week...Nader.
Larry Bird was Greater than you think.

Re: Is Kyrie worth a Super Max?
« Reply #50 on: June 07, 2018, 11:04:52 PM »

Offline rondofan1255

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I think this season will prove he is worth that

TP for the optimism!  ;D