Is Kyrie worth a Super Max?

[celticsclay]

I'm normally all for paying for elite talent being worth it, even if they're "just" all-stars and not MVP because that's what you need to do.

But Westbrook/Wall supermaxes are contracts that I think are going to be very bad pretty quickly. Kyrie is a bit younger so if he were eligible I'd be somewhat less concerned but still worried.

Fortunately for the C's he's "just" going to be eligible to make 32 million per year instead of 38 million per year assuming the salary cap project is accurate.

Westbrook and Wall aren't as good as Kyrie, come on now

yeah they are better.

Wall is? They pretty much have the exact same accolades (5 all-star appearances, 1 3rd team all NBA) but Kyrie has a history of performing in the post-season. Kyrie has also gotten his accolades in one less season. I also think everyone agrees Kyrie would have been all second NBA team this year if he had not gotten hurt (he was a top 10 MVP candidate easily while he played). Headscratcher to say Wall is better.

https://www.si.com/nba/2017/09/11/top-100-nba-players-2018-list-rankings

John Wall 13th, Kyrie Irving 21st

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank1130/nbarank-players-11-30

John Wall 15th, Kyrie Irving 25th


Both of them missed a bunch of games this season, but John Wall was 3rd Team All NBA in 16/17 and finished 7th in MVP voting.  Kyrie Irving made the 3rd Team in 14/15, but hasn't since and has never received MVP votes. 


John Wall is better than Kyrie Irving.  At least by the most recent award voting and according to the "experts" at both ESPN and Sports Illustrated.

The fact you used ESPN/Sports Illustrated as your proof tells me enough... Like come on Moranis, you're way better than this. So you'll take John Wall's super max contract right now for Kyrie Irving?

plus 1 on using ESPN/SI rankings designed to spur debate and clicks as your argument. LOL Some days you slay me man.

[Monkhouse]

I'm normally all for paying for elite talent being worth it, even if they're "just" all-stars and not MVP because that's what you need to do.

But Westbrook/Wall supermaxes are contracts that I think are going to be very bad pretty quickly. Kyrie is a bit younger so if he were eligible I'd be somewhat less concerned but still worried.

Fortunately for the C's he's "just" going to be eligible to make 32 million per year instead of 38 million per year assuming the salary cap project is accurate.

Westbrook and Wall aren't as good as Kyrie, come on now

yeah they are better.

Wall is? They pretty much have the exact same accolades (5 all-star appearances, 1 3rd team all NBA) but Kyrie has a history of performing in the post-season. Kyrie has also gotten his accolades in one less season. I also think everyone agrees Kyrie would have been all second NBA team this year if he had not gotten hurt (he was a top 10 MVP candidate easily while he played). Headscratcher to say Wall is better.

https://www.si.com/nba/2017/09/11/top-100-nba-players-2018-list-rankings

John Wall 13th, Kyrie Irving 21st

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank1130/nbarank-players-11-30

John Wall 15th, Kyrie Irving 25th


Both of them missed a bunch of games this season, but John Wall was 3rd Team All NBA in 16/17 and finished 7th in MVP voting.  Kyrie Irving made the 3rd Team in 14/15, but hasn't since and has never received MVP votes. 


John Wall is better than Kyrie Irving.  At least by the most recent award voting and according to the "experts" at both ESPN and Sports Illustrated.

The fact you used ESPN/Sports Illustrated as your proof tells me enough... Like come on Moranis, you're way better than this. So you'll take John Wall's super max contract right now for Kyrie Irving?

Wall is better than Irving.  That is what I believe, I provided evidence to support that belief.  But what you are asking here is a different thing.  Wall is older and has a much larger contract and will for awhile since Irving can't sign a supermax and thus will be 30% instead of 35% that Wall has.  So I don't know if I'd trade Irving for Wall straight up, since the other factors come into play.  But if everything was equal (i.e. age, contract, etc.), I'd rather have Wall than Irving.

What you consider evidence is what I consider is information provided by a bunch of egotistical jerk offs and 'pundits,' with opinionated and baseless assumptions believe.. ESPN/SI are not reputable sources anymore.. They ride the coattails of superstars and continuously refuse to give Boston ample credit.

But sure, think whatever you want.

Had Irving not been injured for the rest of the season, he would've clearly been in the top 7 or even top 6, definitely above Westbrook, (who clearly is a stat padder, and completely choked,) on basketball-reference.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/mvp.html

2016-2017 John Wall's season was definitely one of his best, but you're kidding yourself if you don't think last year for Irving wasn't just as impressive..

At the end of the day, that is your opinion, and I cannot change that. But I find it hard to believe that the same warts for Irving, (injury issues, EVEN THOUGH Wall played 41 games and Irving played 60! And not being able to secure 1/2/3 All NBA,) cannot be applied to Wall. Irving also achieved the same accolades, despite being a year younger, taking one of the toughest shots in NBA finals history. And leading his team as a first seed while the Wizards barely made the 8th seed, and Wall was criticized for being a diva, and not being a consummate teammate/leader. A criticism that has plagued Wall for many years now.

I'll stick with the sharp shooting confident point guard with handles that no one else can rival nor touch, over the arrogant and overrated John Wall. (I'm from the NOVA/DC area, and I have seen many glimpses of Wall's immaturity settle in after all these years from when he was drafted to now... I've gone to at least 20 home games, and he has not changed a single bit. Not even once.)

[Phantom255x]

I will say this. I hope Ainge talks with Kyrie this summer and asks him about staying here long-term. It would absolutely suck to make the Kyrie trade and see him bolt 2 years later. Until Kyrie signs that extension (whether it's this summer or next), I will always be a little worried Kyrie just leaves us. I really hope we keep Kyrie long term and win multiple banners with him.

[Moranis]

I'm normally all for paying for elite talent being worth it, even if they're "just" all-stars and not MVP because that's what you need to do.

But Westbrook/Wall supermaxes are contracts that I think are going to be very bad pretty quickly. Kyrie is a bit younger so if he were eligible I'd be somewhat less concerned but still worried.

Fortunately for the C's he's "just" going to be eligible to make 32 million per year instead of 38 million per year assuming the salary cap project is accurate.

Westbrook and Wall aren't as good as Kyrie, come on now

yeah they are better.

Wall is? They pretty much have the exact same accolades (5 all-star appearances, 1 3rd team all NBA) but Kyrie has a history of performing in the post-season. Kyrie has also gotten his accolades in one less season. I also think everyone agrees Kyrie would have been all second NBA team this year if he had not gotten hurt (he was a top 10 MVP candidate easily while he played). Headscratcher to say Wall is better.

https://www.si.com/nba/2017/09/11/top-100-nba-players-2018-list-rankings

John Wall 13th, Kyrie Irving 21st

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank1130/nbarank-players-11-30

John Wall 15th, Kyrie Irving 25th


Both of them missed a bunch of games this season, but John Wall was 3rd Team All NBA in 16/17 and finished 7th in MVP voting.  Kyrie Irving made the 3rd Team in 14/15, but hasn't since and has never received MVP votes. 


John Wall is better than Kyrie Irving.  At least by the most recent award voting and according to the "experts" at both ESPN and Sports Illustrated.

The fact you used ESPN/Sports Illustrated as your proof tells me enough... Like come on Moranis, you're way better than this. So you'll take John Wall's super max contract right now for Kyrie Irving?

plus 1 on using ESPN/SI rankings designed to spur debate and clicks as your argument. LOL Some days you slay me man.

you said it was a head scratcher, and yet the two major sports publications in this country both had Wall rated as a better player than Irving entering the year. 

Irving is a much better shooter than Wall, no question or debate there, but Wall does pretty much everything else better.  He is a much better passer.  He is a better rebounder.  He is a much better defender (including generating steals and blocks at a much higher rate).  Both missed a bunch of games, but Wall finished the year and in the playoffs went for 26/11.5/5.7/2.3/1.3.  Last year on the 49 win Wizards team that was a game from the ECF, he went for 27.2/10.3/3.7/1.7/1.2, so this year wasn't a fluke. 

John Wall is better than Kyrie Irving.  The overall stats support that statement.  The eye test supports that statement.  The experts support that statement.  I'm not taking some crazy position with that statement.

[celticsclay]

I'm normally all for paying for elite talent being worth it, even if they're "just" all-stars and not MVP because that's what you need to do.

But Westbrook/Wall supermaxes are contracts that I think are going to be very bad pretty quickly. Kyrie is a bit younger so if he were eligible I'd be somewhat less concerned but still worried.

Fortunately for the C's he's "just" going to be eligible to make 32 million per year instead of 38 million per year assuming the salary cap project is accurate.

Westbrook and Wall aren't as good as Kyrie, come on now

yeah they are better.

Wall is? They pretty much have the exact same accolades (5 all-star appearances, 1 3rd team all NBA) but Kyrie has a history of performing in the post-season. Kyrie has also gotten his accolades in one less season. I also think everyone agrees Kyrie would have been all second NBA team this year if he had not gotten hurt (he was a top 10 MVP candidate easily while he played). Headscratcher to say Wall is better.

https://www.si.com/nba/2017/09/11/top-100-nba-players-2018-list-rankings

John Wall 13th, Kyrie Irving 21st

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank1130/nbarank-players-11-30

John Wall 15th, Kyrie Irving 25th


Both of them missed a bunch of games this season, but John Wall was 3rd Team All NBA in 16/17 and finished 7th in MVP voting.  Kyrie Irving made the 3rd Team in 14/15, but hasn't since and has never received MVP votes. 


John Wall is better than Kyrie Irving.  At least by the most recent award voting and according to the "experts" at both ESPN and Sports Illustrated.

The fact you used ESPN/Sports Illustrated as your proof tells me enough... Like come on Moranis, you're way better than this. So you'll take John Wall's super max contract right now for Kyrie Irving?

plus 1 on using ESPN/SI rankings designed to spur debate and clicks as your argument. LOL Some days you slay me man.

you said it was a head scratcher, and yet the two major sports publications in this country both had Wall rated as a better player than Irving entering the year. 

Irving is a much better shooter than Wall, no question or debate there, but Wall does pretty much everything else better.  He is a much better passer.  He is a better rebounder.  He is a much better defender (including generating steals and blocks at a much higher rate).  Both missed a bunch of games, but Wall finished the year and in the playoffs went for 26/11.5/5.7/2.3/1.3.  Last year on the 49 win Wizards team that was a game from the ECF, he went for 27.2/10.3/3.7/1.7/1.2, so this year wasn't a fluke. 

John Wall is better than Kyrie Irving.  The overall stats support that statement.  The eye test supports that statement.  The experts support that statement.  I'm not taking some crazy position with that statement.

Your list from the crossover has Draymond Green as the 10th best player in the league (this is ridiculous). It has Jae Crowder as the 44th best player ahead of Steve Adams (this has never been a fair take). It has Eric Bledsoe as better than Joel Embid. It has Krhis Middleton ahead of Derozen for christ sake. You know darn well it is garbage and you are just drying to drown people in garbage and hope they don't notice. Again it is laughable evidence to provide.

The actual relevant evidence is that Irving has made the same amount of all-star teams, the same amount of all-nba teams and has performed better and won in a championship in one less season. If Irving had not gotten injured this year he almost certainly would have surpassed Wall in all-nba teams. It is that simple.

[RodyTur10]

I think Irving and Wall are very close. Depends on taste.

However Irving could still improve some I think and doesn't need to be as ball dominant as Wall, oh and as mentioned he's younger and makes less salary  .

[Beat LA]

I'm normally all for paying for elite talent being worth it, even if they're "just" all-stars and not MVP because that's what you need to do.

But Westbrook/Wall supermaxes are contracts that I think are going to be very bad pretty quickly. Kyrie is a bit younger so if he were eligible I'd be somewhat less concerned but still worried.

Fortunately for the C's he's "just" going to be eligible to make 32 million per year instead of 38 million per year assuming the salary cap project is accurate.

Westbrook and Wall aren't as good as Kyrie, come on now

yeah they are better.

Wall is? They pretty much have the exact same accolades (5 all-star appearances, 1 3rd team all NBA) but Kyrie has a history of performing in the post-season. Kyrie has also gotten his accolades in one less season. I also think everyone agrees Kyrie would have been all second NBA team this year if he had not gotten hurt (he was a top 10 MVP candidate easily while he played). Headscratcher to say Wall is better.

https://www.si.com/nba/2017/09/11/top-100-nba-players-2018-list-rankings

John Wall 13th, Kyrie Irving 21st

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank1130/nbarank-players-11-30

John Wall 15th, Kyrie Irving 25th


Both of them missed a bunch of games this season, but John Wall was 3rd Team All NBA in 16/17 and finished 7th in MVP voting.  Kyrie Irving made the 3rd Team in 14/15, but hasn't since and has never received MVP votes. 


John Wall is better than Kyrie Irving.  At least by the most recent award voting and according to the "experts" at both ESPN and Sports Illustrated.

The fact you used ESPN/Sports Illustrated as your proof tells me enough... Like come on Moranis, you're way better than this. So you'll take John Wall's super max contract right now for Kyrie Irving?

plus 1 on using ESPN/SI rankings designed to spur debate and clicks as your argument. LOL Some days you slay me man.

you said it was a head scratcher, and yet the two major sports publications in this country both had Wall rated as a better player than Irving entering the year. 

Irving is a much better shooter than Wall, no question or debate there, but Wall does pretty much everything else better.  He is a much better passer.  He is a better rebounder.  He is a much better defender (including generating steals and blocks at a much higher rate).  Both missed a bunch of games, but Wall finished the year and in the playoffs went for 26/11.5/5.7/2.3/1.3.  Last year on the 49 win Wizards team that was a game from the ECF, he went for 27.2/10.3/3.7/1.7/1.2, so this year wasn't a fluke. 

John Wall is better than Kyrie Irving.  The overall stats support that statement.  The eye test supports that statement.  The experts support that statement.  I'm not taking some crazy position with that statement.

Your list from the crossover has Draymond Green as the 10th best player in the league (this is ridiculous). It has Jae Crowder as the 44th best player ahead of Steve Adams (this has never been a fair take). It has Eric Bledsoe as better than Joel Embid. It has Krhis Middleton ahead of Derozen for christ sake. You know darn well it is garbage and you are just drying to drown people in garbage and hope they don't notice. Again it is laughable evidence to provide.

The actual relevant evidence is that Irving has made the same amount of all-star teams, the same amount of all-nba teams and has performed better and won in a championship in one less season. If Irving had not gotten injured this year he almost certainly would have surpassed Wall in all-nba teams. It is that simple.

While I don't agree with the other rankings that you mentioned, Middleton is much better than Derozan, imo.

[Monkhouse]

I'm normally all for paying for elite talent being worth it, even if they're "just" all-stars and not MVP because that's what you need to do.

But Westbrook/Wall supermaxes are contracts that I think are going to be very bad pretty quickly. Kyrie is a bit younger so if he were eligible I'd be somewhat less concerned but still worried.

Fortunately for the C's he's "just" going to be eligible to make 32 million per year instead of 38 million per year assuming the salary cap project is accurate.

Westbrook and Wall aren't as good as Kyrie, come on now

yeah they are better.

Wall is? They pretty much have the exact same accolades (5 all-star appearances, 1 3rd team all NBA) but Kyrie has a history of performing in the post-season. Kyrie has also gotten his accolades in one less season. I also think everyone agrees Kyrie would have been all second NBA team this year if he had not gotten hurt (he was a top 10 MVP candidate easily while he played). Headscratcher to say Wall is better.

https://www.si.com/nba/2017/09/11/top-100-nba-players-2018-list-rankings

John Wall 13th, Kyrie Irving 21st

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank1130/nbarank-players-11-30

John Wall 15th, Kyrie Irving 25th


Both of them missed a bunch of games this season, but John Wall was 3rd Team All NBA in 16/17 and finished 7th in MVP voting.  Kyrie Irving made the 3rd Team in 14/15, but hasn't since and has never received MVP votes. 


John Wall is better than Kyrie Irving.  At least by the most recent award voting and according to the "experts" at both ESPN and Sports Illustrated.

The fact you used ESPN/Sports Illustrated as your proof tells me enough... Like come on Moranis, you're way better than this. So you'll take John Wall's super max contract right now for Kyrie Irving?

plus 1 on using ESPN/SI rankings designed to spur debate and clicks as your argument. LOL Some days you slay me man.

you said it was a head scratcher, and yet the two major sports publications in this country both had Wall rated as a better player than Irving entering the year. 

Irving is a much better shooter than Wall, no question or debate there, but Wall does pretty much everything else better.  He is a much better passer.  He is a better rebounder.  He is a much better defender (including generating steals and blocks at a much higher rate).  Both missed a bunch of games, but Wall finished the year and in the playoffs went for 26/11.5/5.7/2.3/1.3.  Last year on the 49 win Wizards team that was a game from the ECF, he went for 27.2/10.3/3.7/1.7/1.2, so this year wasn't a fluke. 

John Wall is better than Kyrie Irving.  The overall stats support that statement.  The eye test supports that statement.  The experts support that statement.  I'm not taking some crazy position with that statement.

Your list from the crossover has Draymond Green as the 10th best player in the league (this is ridiculous). It has Jae Crowder as the 44th best player ahead of Steve Adams (this has never been a fair take). It has Eric Bledsoe as better than Joel Embid. It has Krhis Middleton ahead of Derozen for christ sake. You know darn well it is garbage and you are just drying to drown people in garbage and hope they don't notice. Again it is laughable evidence to provide.

The actual relevant evidence is that Irving has made the same amount of all-star teams, the same amount of all-nba teams and has performed better and won in a championship in one less season. If Irving had not gotten injured this year he almost certainly would have surpassed Wall in all-nba teams. It is that simple.

While I don't agree with the other rankings that you mentioned, Middleton is much better than Derozan, imo.

In your opinion of course, other than being a better shooter, and potentially a better defender. (I've actually found Middleton's defense slightly overrated.) Middleton is what he is. A great 3 and D player that is possibly perennial Allstar, but never achieved it. DeRozan is a 4x time Allstar, who has choked to LeBron, but... How many players have honestly stepped up to LeBron and come out victorious? Other than FG%, (and that's because DeRozan is their 1st option,) and 3pt shooting %, they have literally identical numbers with DeRozan scoring more, and getting to the line a lot more.

I get that DeRozan has been overrated, but the notion that Middleton is that much better than DeRozan really isn't giving him any credit at all.

To put it into perspective, DeMar has been in the league for 3 extra years than Middleton. He's already scored 2x the amount that Middleton has been in the league. 13296 vs. 5722.

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/demar_derozan_vs_khris_middleton.htm

[gouki88]

Unquestionably yes

[Phantom255x]

Kyrie can be offered 5/188M from us, but if hypothetically he was traded to another team OR bolted to another team, how much could the other team offer? Anyone know? (Paging @salt!)

[Beat LA]

I'm normally all for paying for elite talent being worth it, even if they're "just" all-stars and not MVP because that's what you need to do.

But Westbrook/Wall supermaxes are contracts that I think are going to be very bad pretty quickly. Kyrie is a bit younger so if he were eligible I'd be somewhat less concerned but still worried.

Fortunately for the C's he's "just" going to be eligible to make 32 million per year instead of 38 million per year assuming the salary cap project is accurate.

Westbrook and Wall aren't as good as Kyrie, come on now

yeah they are better.

Wall is? They pretty much have the exact same accolades (5 all-star appearances, 1 3rd team all NBA) but Kyrie has a history of performing in the post-season. Kyrie has also gotten his accolades in one less season. I also think everyone agrees Kyrie would have been all second NBA team this year if he had not gotten hurt (he was a top 10 MVP candidate easily while he played). Headscratcher to say Wall is better.

https://www.si.com/nba/2017/09/11/top-100-nba-players-2018-list-rankings

John Wall 13th, Kyrie Irving 21st

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank1130/nbarank-players-11-30

John Wall 15th, Kyrie Irving 25th


Both of them missed a bunch of games this season, but John Wall was 3rd Team All NBA in 16/17 and finished 7th in MVP voting.  Kyrie Irving made the 3rd Team in 14/15, but hasn't since and has never received MVP votes. 


John Wall is better than Kyrie Irving.  At least by the most recent award voting and according to the "experts" at both ESPN and Sports Illustrated.

The fact you used ESPN/Sports Illustrated as your proof tells me enough... Like come on Moranis, you're way better than this. So you'll take John Wall's super max contract right now for Kyrie Irving?

plus 1 on using ESPN/SI rankings designed to spur debate and clicks as your argument. LOL Some days you slay me man.

you said it was a head scratcher, and yet the two major sports publications in this country both had Wall rated as a better player than Irving entering the year. 

Irving is a much better shooter than Wall, no question or debate there, but Wall does pretty much everything else better.  He is a much better passer.  He is a better rebounder.  He is a much better defender (including generating steals and blocks at a much higher rate).  Both missed a bunch of games, but Wall finished the year and in the playoffs went for 26/11.5/5.7/2.3/1.3.  Last year on the 49 win Wizards team that was a game from the ECF, he went for 27.2/10.3/3.7/1.7/1.2, so this year wasn't a fluke. 

John Wall is better than Kyrie Irving.  The overall stats support that statement.  The eye test supports that statement.  The experts support that statement.  I'm not taking some crazy position with that statement.

Your list from the crossover has Draymond Green as the 10th best player in the league (this is ridiculous). It has Jae Crowder as the 44th best player ahead of Steve Adams (this has never been a fair take). It has Eric Bledsoe as better than Joel Embid. It has Krhis Middleton ahead of Derozen for christ sake. You know darn well it is garbage and you are just drying to drown people in garbage and hope they don't notice. Again it is laughable evidence to provide.

The actual relevant evidence is that Irving has made the same amount of all-star teams, the same amount of all-nba teams and has performed better and won in a championship in one less season. If Irving had not gotten injured this year he almost certainly would have surpassed Wall in all-nba teams. It is that simple.

While I don't agree with the other rankings that you mentioned, Middleton is much better than Derozan, imo.

In your opinion of course, other than being a better shooter, and potentially a better defender. (I've actually found Middleton's defense slightly overrated.) Middleton is what he is. A great 3 and D player that is possibly perennial Allstar, but never achieved it. DeRozan is a 4x time Allstar, who has choked to LeBron, but... How many players have honestly stepped up to LeBron and come out victorious? Other than FG%, (and that's because DeRozan is their 1st option,) and 3pt shooting %, they have literally identical numbers with DeRozan scoring more, and getting to the line a lot more.

I get that DeRozan has been overrated, but the notion that Middleton is that much better than DeRozan really isn't giving him any credit at all.

To put it into perspective, DeMar has been in the league for 3 extra years than Middleton. He's already scored 2x the amount that Middleton has been in the league. 13296 vs. 5722.

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/demar_derozan_vs_khris_middleton.htm

Middleton is hardly a 3 and D player, dude. That's just ridiculous, imo. He's very intelligent, an excellent defender and passer, can post up, play without the ball, and has much better range than Derozan, who, owing to his need to have the, well, ball in his hands all the time, really hurts Toronto's half-court offense, imo. Plus, Middleton is actually clutch. I get that Demar is the better athlete, but that's the only edge that I'd give to him over Khris, but I'm weird .

[Beat LA]

I think the better question regarding Kyrie is as to whether or not the guy can even make it through an entire season. Dude's a china doll, lol. Carl Pavano 2.0 .

[Monkhouse]

I'm normally all for paying for elite talent being worth it, even if they're "just" all-stars and not MVP because that's what you need to do.

But Westbrook/Wall supermaxes are contracts that I think are going to be very bad pretty quickly. Kyrie is a bit younger so if he were eligible I'd be somewhat less concerned but still worried.

Fortunately for the C's he's "just" going to be eligible to make 32 million per year instead of 38 million per year assuming the salary cap project is accurate.

Westbrook and Wall aren't as good as Kyrie, come on now

yeah they are better.

Wall is? They pretty much have the exact same accolades (5 all-star appearances, 1 3rd team all NBA) but Kyrie has a history of performing in the post-season. Kyrie has also gotten his accolades in one less season. I also think everyone agrees Kyrie would have been all second NBA team this year if he had not gotten hurt (he was a top 10 MVP candidate easily while he played). Headscratcher to say Wall is better.

https://www.si.com/nba/2017/09/11/top-100-nba-players-2018-list-rankings

John Wall 13th, Kyrie Irving 21st

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank1130/nbarank-players-11-30

John Wall 15th, Kyrie Irving 25th


Both of them missed a bunch of games this season, but John Wall was 3rd Team All NBA in 16/17 and finished 7th in MVP voting.  Kyrie Irving made the 3rd Team in 14/15, but hasn't since and has never received MVP votes. 


John Wall is better than Kyrie Irving.  At least by the most recent award voting and according to the "experts" at both ESPN and Sports Illustrated.

The fact you used ESPN/Sports Illustrated as your proof tells me enough... Like come on Moranis, you're way better than this. So you'll take John Wall's super max contract right now for Kyrie Irving?

plus 1 on using ESPN/SI rankings designed to spur debate and clicks as your argument. LOL Some days you slay me man.

you said it was a head scratcher, and yet the two major sports publications in this country both had Wall rated as a better player than Irving entering the year. 

Irving is a much better shooter than Wall, no question or debate there, but Wall does pretty much everything else better.  He is a much better passer.  He is a better rebounder.  He is a much better defender (including generating steals and blocks at a much higher rate).  Both missed a bunch of games, but Wall finished the year and in the playoffs went for 26/11.5/5.7/2.3/1.3.  Last year on the 49 win Wizards team that was a game from the ECF, he went for 27.2/10.3/3.7/1.7/1.2, so this year wasn't a fluke. 

John Wall is better than Kyrie Irving.  The overall stats support that statement.  The eye test supports that statement.  The experts support that statement.  I'm not taking some crazy position with that statement.

Your list from the crossover has Draymond Green as the 10th best player in the league (this is ridiculous). It has Jae Crowder as the 44th best player ahead of Steve Adams (this has never been a fair take). It has Eric Bledsoe as better than Joel Embid. It has Krhis Middleton ahead of Derozen for christ sake. You know darn well it is garbage and you are just drying to drown people in garbage and hope they don't notice. Again it is laughable evidence to provide.

The actual relevant evidence is that Irving has made the same amount of all-star teams, the same amount of all-nba teams and has performed better and won in a championship in one less season. If Irving had not gotten injured this year he almost certainly would have surpassed Wall in all-nba teams. It is that simple.

While I don't agree with the other rankings that you mentioned, Middleton is much better than Derozan, imo.

In your opinion of course, other than being a better shooter, and potentially a better defender. (I've actually found Middleton's defense slightly overrated.) Middleton is what he is. A great 3 and D player that is possibly perennial Allstar, but never achieved it. DeRozan is a 4x time Allstar, who has choked to LeBron, but... How many players have honestly stepped up to LeBron and come out victorious? Other than FG%, (and that's because DeRozan is their 1st option,) and 3pt shooting %, they have literally identical numbers with DeRozan scoring more, and getting to the line a lot more.

I get that DeRozan has been overrated, but the notion that Middleton is that much better than DeRozan really isn't giving him any credit at all.

To put it into perspective, DeMar has been in the league for 3 extra years than Middleton. He's already scored 2x the amount that Middleton has been in the league. 13296 vs. 5722.

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/demar_derozan_vs_khris_middleton.htm

Middleton is hardly a 3 and D player, dude. That's just ridiculous, imo. He's very intelligent, an excellent defender and passer, can post up, play without the ball, and has much better range than Derozan, who, owing to his need to have the, well, ball in his hands all the time, really hurts Toronto's half-court offense, imo. Plus, Middleton is actually clutch. I get that Demar is the better athlete, but that's the only edge that I'd give to him over Khris, but I'm weird .

I get your points and agree with them. But both players are still great players even if DeMar DeRozan hasn't been as successful as he should've been.

[tazzmaniac]

I'm normally all for paying for elite talent being worth it, even if they're "just" all-stars and not MVP because that's what you need to do.

But Westbrook/Wall supermaxes are contracts that I think are going to be very bad pretty quickly. Kyrie is a bit younger so if he were eligible I'd be somewhat less concerned but still worried.

Fortunately for the C's he's "just" going to be eligible to make 32 million per year instead of 38 million per year assuming the salary cap project is accurate.

Westbrook and Wall aren't as good as Kyrie, come on now

yeah they are better.

Wall is? They pretty much have the exact same accolades (5 all-star appearances, 1 3rd team all NBA) but Kyrie has a history of performing in the post-season. Kyrie has also gotten his accolades in one less season. I also think everyone agrees Kyrie would have been all second NBA team this year if he had not gotten hurt (he was a top 10 MVP candidate easily while he played). Headscratcher to say Wall is better.

https://www.si.com/nba/2017/09/11/top-100-nba-players-2018-list-rankings

John Wall 13th, Kyrie Irving 21st

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank1130/nbarank-players-11-30

John Wall 15th, Kyrie Irving 25th


Both of them missed a bunch of games this season, but John Wall was 3rd Team All NBA in 16/17 and finished 7th in MVP voting.  Kyrie Irving made the 3rd Team in 14/15, but hasn't since and has never received MVP votes. 


John Wall is better than Kyrie Irving.  At least by the most recent award voting and according to the "experts" at both ESPN and Sports Illustrated.

The fact you used ESPN/Sports Illustrated as your proof tells me enough... Like come on Moranis, you're way better than this. So you'll take John Wall's super max contract right now for Kyrie Irving?

Wall is better than Irving.  That is what I believe, I provided evidence to support that belief.  But what you are asking here is a different thing.  Wall is older and has a much larger contract and will for awhile since Irving can't sign a supermax and thus will be 30% instead of 35% that Wall has.  So I don't know if I'd trade Irving for Wall straight up, since the other factors come into play.  But if everything was equal (i.e. age, contract, etc.), I'd rather have Wall than Irving.

If I had my druthers, I wouldn't Wall or Irving as my #1 star.  Irving is a better #2 star than Wall.  I don't expect Wall to age well so that supermax contract is going to get really ugly for Washington. 

[gouki88]

I'm normally all for paying for elite talent being worth it, even if they're "just" all-stars and not MVP because that's what you need to do.

But Westbrook/Wall supermaxes are contracts that I think are going to be very bad pretty quickly. Kyrie is a bit younger so if he were eligible I'd be somewhat less concerned but still worried.

Fortunately for the C's he's "just" going to be eligible to make 32 million per year instead of 38 million per year assuming the salary cap project is accurate.

Westbrook and Wall aren't as good as Kyrie, come on now

yeah they are better.

Wall is? They pretty much have the exact same accolades (5 all-star appearances, 1 3rd team all NBA) but Kyrie has a history of performing in the post-season. Kyrie has also gotten his accolades in one less season. I also think everyone agrees Kyrie would have been all second NBA team this year if he had not gotten hurt (he was a top 10 MVP candidate easily while he played). Headscratcher to say Wall is better.

https://www.si.com/nba/2017/09/11/top-100-nba-players-2018-list-rankings

John Wall 13th, Kyrie Irving 21st

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank1130/nbarank-players-11-30

John Wall 15th, Kyrie Irving 25th


Both of them missed a bunch of games this season, but John Wall was 3rd Team All NBA in 16/17 and finished 7th in MVP voting.  Kyrie Irving made the 3rd Team in 14/15, but hasn't since and has never received MVP votes. 


John Wall is better than Kyrie Irving.  At least by the most recent award voting and according to the "experts" at both ESPN and Sports Illustrated.

The fact you used ESPN/Sports Illustrated as your proof tells me enough... Like come on Moranis, you're way better than this. So you'll take John Wall's super max contract right now for Kyrie Irving?

Wall is better than Irving.  That is what I believe, I provided evidence to support that belief.  But what you are asking here is a different thing.  Wall is older and has a much larger contract and will for awhile since Irving can't sign a supermax and thus will be 30% instead of 35% that Wall has.  So I don't know if I'd trade Irving for Wall straight up, since the other factors come into play.  But if everything was equal (i.e. age, contract, etc.), I'd rather have Wall than Irving.

If I had my druthers, I wouldn't Wall or Irving as my #1 star.  Irving is a better #2 star than Wall.  I don't expect Wall to age well so that supermax contract is going to get really ugly for Washington.

Thankfully we'll be rolling out with a 1a star in Irving, a 1b star in Hayward, and a 1c star in Tatum