Is Kyrie worth a Super Max?

[Fafnir]

Westbrook and Wall aren't as good as Kyrie, come on now

They are both consistently rated right there with Kyrie as players in player rankings, all-star, all-nba honors etc. Westbrook is more decorated than Kyrie in particular.

[TheReaLPuba]

Kyrie cannot be eligible for the supermax because you have to have been with your current team for at least 5 seasons.

I thought all you had to do was make an All-NBA 1st team or win MVP and you're eligible?

[Fafnir]

Kyrie cannot be eligible for the supermax because you have to have been with your current team for at least 5 seasons.

I thought all you had to do was make an All-NBA 1st team or win MVP and you're eligible?

Nope see:

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q24

[Fafnir]

I'm normally all for paying for elite talent being worth it, even if they're "just" all-stars and not MVP because that's what you need to do.

But Westbrook/Wall supermaxes are contracts that I think are going to be very bad pretty quickly. Kyrie is a bit younger so if he were eligible I'd be somewhat less concerned but still worried.

I think Kyrie is going to age a lot better than Westbrook or Wall.  I'd also rather have Kyrie right now than either of those guys.

Shooting is indeed king, so I agree. (maybe if Wall still played any defense with consistency but alas those days are gone same with Westbrook)

But I'd still be very concern if he was on the same deal as Wall.

[PhoSita]

I'm normally all for paying for elite talent being worth it, even if they're "just" all-stars and not MVP because that's what you need to do.

But Westbrook/Wall supermaxes are contracts that I think are going to be very bad pretty quickly. Kyrie is a bit younger so if he were eligible I'd be somewhat less concerned but still worried.

I think Kyrie is going to age a lot better than Westbrook or Wall.  I'd also rather have Kyrie right now than either of those guys.

Shooting is indeed king, so I agree. (maybe if Wall still played any defense with consistency but alas those days are gone same with Westbrook)

But I'd still be very concern if he was on the same deal as Wall.

Yeah I mean it's rough to give 35-40% of your cap space to a single player. Even if that player is LeBron, that still limits your ability to build and maintain around that player.

Nonetheless, it's far worse to not have that kind of player.


As much as I love Tatum, Jaylen, Hayward, and Horford (who I hope we can keep around long term for less $$), I'm a big believer in the importance of having an elite creator at the point of attack.

The Celts were an amazing defensive team this year but ultimately they couldn't get past the Cavs because they didn't have a player who could take over and create efficient shots when things got tight.  They were a better team than the Cavs in almost every respect but that did them in while LeBron kept steady.

Kyrie is that kind of player.  Every great team in today's pick and roll league needs to have an elite creator.  Without one, you're going to have an uphill battle no matter how well coached and talented your team is elsewhere.

[PhoSita]

Westbrook and Wall aren't as good as Kyrie, come on now

They are both consistently rated right there with Kyrie as players in player rankings, all-star, all-nba honors etc. Westbrook is more decorated than Kyrie in particular.

This is true but not necessarily correct.

[Fafnir]

Upon reflection my main reason for not being as scared about Kryie's next deal as Walls has nothing to do with Kyrie. The shooting is nice, but who knows how he ages or his knee holds up.

I'm not as scared because Tatum/Brown/etc form a talent base to supplement him even if he ends up "just" an all-star level player value instead of all-nba level he was this season. The Wizards don't have that luxury and Wall's contract means they aren't going to be able to add it.

The money doesn't matter, its how it narrows your options and the C's already are flush with options. The Wizards and Thunder have almost none.

[Fafnir]

Westbrook and Wall aren't as good as Kyrie, come on now

They are both consistently rated right there with Kyrie as players in player rankings, all-star, all-nba honors etc. Westbrook is more decorated than Kyrie in particular.

This is true but not necessarily correct.

Right, but very smart basketball analysts will rank all three close together and in different orders. I respect that and try not to get tunnel visioned on Celtics players.

[Sophomore]

As someone pointed out above, he can't get the supermax when this contract is up.

Is he worth the max? If he comes back fully healed and plays the way he did last year (or even, I hope, a little better)? Then yes.

[Moranis]

I'm normally all for paying for elite talent being worth it, even if they're "just" all-stars and not MVP because that's what you need to do.

But Westbrook/Wall supermaxes are contracts that I think are going to be very bad pretty quickly. Kyrie is a bit younger so if he were eligible I'd be somewhat less concerned but still worried.

Fortunately for the C's he's "just" going to be eligible to make 32 million per year instead of 38 million per year assuming the salary cap project is accurate.

Westbrook and Wall aren't as good as Kyrie, come on now

yeah they are better. 

[rondofan1255]

thankfully he's not eligible for this

[celticsclay]

I'm normally all for paying for elite talent being worth it, even if they're "just" all-stars and not MVP because that's what you need to do.

But Westbrook/Wall supermaxes are contracts that I think are going to be very bad pretty quickly. Kyrie is a bit younger so if he were eligible I'd be somewhat less concerned but still worried.

Fortunately for the C's he's "just" going to be eligible to make 32 million per year instead of 38 million per year assuming the salary cap project is accurate.

Westbrook and Wall aren't as good as Kyrie, come on now

yeah they are better.

Wall is? They pretty much have the exact same accolades (5 all-star appearances, 1 3rd team all NBA) but Kyrie has a history of performing in the post-season. Kyrie has also gotten his accolades in one less season. I also think everyone agrees Kyrie would have been all second NBA team this year if he had not gotten hurt (he was a top 10 MVP candidate easily while he played). Headscratcher to say Wall is better.

[Moranis]

I'm normally all for paying for elite talent being worth it, even if they're "just" all-stars and not MVP because that's what you need to do.

But Westbrook/Wall supermaxes are contracts that I think are going to be very bad pretty quickly. Kyrie is a bit younger so if he were eligible I'd be somewhat less concerned but still worried.

Fortunately for the C's he's "just" going to be eligible to make 32 million per year instead of 38 million per year assuming the salary cap project is accurate.

Westbrook and Wall aren't as good as Kyrie, come on now

yeah they are better.

Wall is? They pretty much have the exact same accolades (5 all-star appearances, 1 3rd team all NBA) but Kyrie has a history of performing in the post-season. Kyrie has also gotten his accolades in one less season. I also think everyone agrees Kyrie would have been all second NBA team this year if he had not gotten hurt (he was a top 10 MVP candidate easily while he played). Headscratcher to say Wall is better.

https://www.si.com/nba/2017/09/11/top-100-nba-players-2018-list-rankings

John Wall 13th, Kyrie Irving 21st

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank1130/nbarank-players-11-30

John Wall 15th, Kyrie Irving 25th


Both of them missed a bunch of games this season, but John Wall was 3rd Team All NBA in 16/17 and finished 7th in MVP voting.  Kyrie Irving made the 3rd Team in 14/15, but hasn't since and has never received MVP votes. 


John Wall is better than Kyrie Irving.  At least by the most recent award voting and according to the "experts" at both ESPN and Sports Illustrated.

[Monkhouse]

I'm normally all for paying for elite talent being worth it, even if they're "just" all-stars and not MVP because that's what you need to do.

But Westbrook/Wall supermaxes are contracts that I think are going to be very bad pretty quickly. Kyrie is a bit younger so if he were eligible I'd be somewhat less concerned but still worried.

Fortunately for the C's he's "just" going to be eligible to make 32 million per year instead of 38 million per year assuming the salary cap project is accurate.

Westbrook and Wall aren't as good as Kyrie, come on now

yeah they are better.

Wall is? They pretty much have the exact same accolades (5 all-star appearances, 1 3rd team all NBA) but Kyrie has a history of performing in the post-season. Kyrie has also gotten his accolades in one less season. I also think everyone agrees Kyrie would have been all second NBA team this year if he had not gotten hurt (he was a top 10 MVP candidate easily while he played). Headscratcher to say Wall is better.

https://www.si.com/nba/2017/09/11/top-100-nba-players-2018-list-rankings

John Wall 13th, Kyrie Irving 21st

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank1130/nbarank-players-11-30

John Wall 15th, Kyrie Irving 25th


Both of them missed a bunch of games this season, but John Wall was 3rd Team All NBA in 16/17 and finished 7th in MVP voting.  Kyrie Irving made the 3rd Team in 14/15, but hasn't since and has never received MVP votes. 


John Wall is better than Kyrie Irving.  At least by the most recent award voting and according to the "experts" at both ESPN and Sports Illustrated.

The fact you used ESPN/Sports Illustrated as your proof tells me enough... Like come on Moranis, you're way better than this. So you'll take John Wall's super max contract right now for Kyrie Irving?

[Moranis]

I'm normally all for paying for elite talent being worth it, even if they're "just" all-stars and not MVP because that's what you need to do.

But Westbrook/Wall supermaxes are contracts that I think are going to be very bad pretty quickly. Kyrie is a bit younger so if he were eligible I'd be somewhat less concerned but still worried.

Fortunately for the C's he's "just" going to be eligible to make 32 million per year instead of 38 million per year assuming the salary cap project is accurate.

Westbrook and Wall aren't as good as Kyrie, come on now

yeah they are better.

Wall is? They pretty much have the exact same accolades (5 all-star appearances, 1 3rd team all NBA) but Kyrie has a history of performing in the post-season. Kyrie has also gotten his accolades in one less season. I also think everyone agrees Kyrie would have been all second NBA team this year if he had not gotten hurt (he was a top 10 MVP candidate easily while he played). Headscratcher to say Wall is better.

https://www.si.com/nba/2017/09/11/top-100-nba-players-2018-list-rankings

John Wall 13th, Kyrie Irving 21st

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank1130/nbarank-players-11-30

John Wall 15th, Kyrie Irving 25th


Both of them missed a bunch of games this season, but John Wall was 3rd Team All NBA in 16/17 and finished 7th in MVP voting.  Kyrie Irving made the 3rd Team in 14/15, but hasn't since and has never received MVP votes. 


John Wall is better than Kyrie Irving.  At least by the most recent award voting and according to the "experts" at both ESPN and Sports Illustrated.

The fact you used ESPN/Sports Illustrated as your proof tells me enough... Like come on Moranis, you're way better than this. So you'll take John Wall's super max contract right now for Kyrie Irving?

Wall is better than Irving.  That is what I believe, I provided evidence to support that belief.  But what you are asking here is a different thing.  Wall is older and has a much larger contract and will for awhile since Irving can't sign a supermax and thus will be 30% instead of 35% that Wall has.  So I don't know if I'd trade Irving for Wall straight up, since the other factors come into play.  But if everything was equal (i.e. age, contract, etc.), I'd rather have Wall than Irving.