There's a difference between great individual athletes and great players

[Ed Hollison]

If you haven't seen this longer cut yet showing the Cleveland Cavaliers bench before overtime of Game 1 (after JR Smith's running the ball out to half court), watch it now:

https://twitter.com/Ballislife/status/1003479077326487552/video/1

Lebron James may be basketball's greatest individual athlete. Actually I'm not even sure of that; I think it's Wilt (but I digress). But there is more to being a great basketball player than just individual capacity. It's about leading and lifting a team. The fact that people forget this helps explain why ESPN could rank Bill Russell, a 5-time MVP and winner of 11 NBA titles, two NCAA titles and an Olympic gold medal, the 7th best player of all-time (they put Lebron at 3rd).

Stop the nonsense. Lebron James is an otherworldly individual talent. But basketball is not an individual game.

[Moranis]

This is just silly.

[Roy H.]

He’s a great player. Many of the greats weren’t great leaders: Jordan, Kobe, even Bird.

[wdleehi]

A great athlete can look great on the court/field, but is doesn't lead to wins.


Think Marbury


Lebron has dragged a lotto team to the finals.   (this year and some of those early Cavs team)

[Donoghus]

I think there are several things you can knock Lebron on but I'm not sure this is one of them.

[johnnygreen]

I agree, there is a difference. For instance, I think Giannis Antetokounmpo is a great athlete, but not necessarily a great basketball player. His understanding of the game is no where near his athleticism. However, LeBron is both a great athlete and player. To base your theory off that one clip is ridiculous.

I'm a die hard Celtics fan, and even I could see the referees were trying to fix game one in Golden State's favor. The Cavs were playing the best team in the league, who were also being helped by the refs, and the Cavaliers still had a chance to win at the end. To lose because one player couldn't make a free throw, another player didn't know the score, and your coach forgot to call a time out, just makes it that much worse. I couldn't imagine any competitor in that situation not being totally frustrated.

It just occurred to me, as to what you probably wanted LeBron to say. Maybe he should have walked back to the huddle and told everyone, "Good job, good effort" just like that kid in Miami.

[PhoSita]

I mean, LeBron is no Tim Duncan.  But then, most great players aren't Tim Duncan.

There are many ways to be great.

[Monkhouse]

If you haven't seen this longer cut yet showing the Cleveland Cavaliers bench before overtime of Game 1 (after JR Smith's running the ball out to half court), watch it now:

https://twitter.com/Ballislife/status/1003479077326487552/video/1

Lebron James may be basketball's greatest individual athlete. Actually I'm not even sure of that; I think it's Wilt (but I digress). But there is more to being a great basketball player than just individual capacity. It's about leading and lifting a team. The fact that people forget this helps explain why ESPN could rank Bill Russell, a 5-time MVP and winner of 11 NBA titles, two NCAA titles and an Olympic gold medal, the 7th best player of all-time (they put Lebron at 3rd).

Stop the nonsense. Lebron James is an otherworldly individual talent. But basketball is not an individual game.

You should stop the nonsense... LeBron is going to end up as the top 5 of all time, maybe top 3 by the time his career is over... I still take Jordan over LeBron, because he was a more dominant two way player.

[KungPoweChicken]

Great basketball player/great athlete = LeBron James
Good basketball player/great athlete = Andrew Wiggins
Average basketball player/great athlete = Dwight Howard

[droopdog7]

Is this a parody thread?  What exactly does the video prove?  Dude is playing with every ounce of will that he has and was understandably disappointed in what happened.  There are a million ways he could have reacted and I don't think this one was especially noteworthy.

As far as calling him a great athlete (versus player), what are you smoking.  Lebron is probably the most all around skilled basketball player to ever live (not just an athlete).  He's lifted teams to the finals eight years in a row, including this collection of nobodies.   

[hodgy03038]

Great basketball player/great athlete = LeBron James
Good basketball player/great athlete = Andrew Wiggins
Average basketball player/great athlete = Dwight Howard

Andrew Wiggins is good?

[Monkhouse]

Great basketball player/great athlete = LeBron James
Good basketball player/great athlete = Andrew Wiggins
Average basketball player/great athlete = Dwight Howard

No.

Great basketball player/great athlete = LeBron James
Good basketball player/great athlete = Andrew Wiggins
Average basketball player/great athlete = Dwight Howard

Andrew Wiggins is good?

Andrew Wiggins is an great athlete, but a terrible basketball player. Definitely not a great teammate either.

[droopdog7]

Great basketball player/great athlete = LeBron James
Good basketball player/great athlete = Andrew Wiggins
Average basketball player/great athlete = Dwight Howard

Andrew Wiggins is good?

I'd definitely flip howard and wiggins. 

[Ed Hollison]

My point of this thread was that being a superb individual talent doesn't make you a great player, and certainly not the greatest ever, because being a great player in a team sport necessitates being a great teammate. Some guys are great individual talents and mediocre (at best) team mates; I think that's Lebron.

This is why I also bring up Russell, who was not the individual talent of Wilt, and yet when his contemporaries talk about him, to a man they will talk about his selflessness and his overall excellence as a leader of the team.

To take a more recent example: KG was an elite individual talent for the 2007-08 championship Celtics. But everyone involved with that team knows there's no way they win it without his intensity and the demand for excellence that he placed on everyone around him.

Do you watch that clip and feel the same about Lebron?

[droopdog7]

My point of this thread was that being a superb individual talent doesn't make you a great player, and certainly not the greatest ever, because being a great player in a team sport necessitates being a great teammate. Some guys are great individual talents and mediocre (at best) team mates; I think that's Lebron.

This is why I also bring up Russell, who was not the individual talent of Wilt, and yet when his contemporaries talk about him, to a man they will talk about his selflessness and his overall excellence as a leader of the team.

To take a more recent example: KG was an elite individual talent for the 2007-08 championship Celtics. But everyone involved with that team knows there's no way they win it without his intensity and the demand for excellence that he placed on everyone around him.

Do you watch that clip and feel the same about Lebron?

Several thoughts come to mind.  If you're going to use that video to conclude that Lebron is not he greatest ever, but maybe second or third, um, okay.  I mean, at that level you're splitting hairs anyway.

Second, it was one play in a man's career.  In that same situation, MJ (for example) might have completely blown his top.  Is that better than what lebron did?  Worse?  I mean, people can spin  what they see anyway they want. 

And speaking of russell, can you give me one example of how he was a great leader?  What was his leadership style?  I mean, I'm not doubting that he was but people tend to look back and romanticize everything about players years after the fact.  Do we have ANY idea that he never had a similar moment?  Of course not.