Author Topic: Big 1st amendment win - Court rules for baker in gay wedding case.  (Read 5616 times)

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Re: Big 1st amendment win - Court rules for baker in gay wedding case.
« Reply #60 on: June 25, 2018, 01:23:50 PM »

Offline Jiri Welsch

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Sure there could be some that hide behind religion so they can discriminate, but should we punish those that are acting according to what they believe?
It is fairly simple. I know for a fact that some people sincerely believed that people of color are inferior. Now what?

What religion is that?
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Re: Big 1st amendment win - Court rules for baker in gay wedding case.
« Reply #61 on: June 25, 2018, 01:42:13 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Sure there could be some that hide behind religion so they can discriminate, but should we punish those that are acting according to what they believe?
It is fairly simple. I know for a fact that some people sincerely believed that people of color are inferior. Now what?

What religion is that?
Why does that matter?
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Re: Big 1st amendment win - Court rules for baker in gay wedding case.
« Reply #62 on: June 25, 2018, 01:47:10 PM »

Offline liam

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Sure there could be some that hide behind religion so they can discriminate, but should we punish those that are acting according to what they believe?
It is fairly simple. I know for a fact that some people sincerely believed that people of color are inferior. Now what?

What religion is that?
Why does that matter?

Not only should we have freedom of religion but also freedom from religion. Religions shouldn't be able to foist their beliefs on the rest of society. I don't foist my religious beliefs on to others and I expect the same of them.

Re: Big 1st amendment win - Court rules for baker in gay wedding case.
« Reply #63 on: June 25, 2018, 02:03:26 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Sure there could be some that hide behind religion so they can discriminate, but should we punish those that are acting according to what they believe?
It is fairly simple. I know for a fact that some people sincerely believed that people of color are inferior. Now what?

What religion is that?
Why does that matter?

Not only should we have freedom of religion but also freedom from religion. Religions shouldn't be able to foist their beliefs on the rest of society. I don't foist my religious beliefs on to others and I expect the same of them.

Well, no, you don’t have the right to live in a completely secular society.

You can exercise your lack of religion. The government can’t establish a religion. But nothing says that there’s “freedom from religion”.


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Re: Big 1st amendment win - Court rules for baker in gay wedding case.
« Reply #64 on: June 25, 2018, 02:17:44 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Sure there could be some that hide behind religion so they can discriminate, but should we punish those that are acting according to what they believe?
It is fairly simple. I know for a fact that some people sincerely believed that people of color are inferior. Now what?

What religion is that?
Why does that matter?

Not only should we have freedom of religion but also freedom from religion. Religions shouldn't be able to foist their beliefs on the rest of society. I don't foist my religious beliefs on to others and I expect the same of them.

Well, no, you don’t have the right to live in a completely secular society.

You can exercise your lack of religion. The government can’t establish a religion. But nothing says that there’s “freedom from religion”.
I think his larger point is that when someone uses religion to violate the law, the line has been crossed and that should be the deciding factor. 

Re: Big 1st amendment win - Court rules for baker in gay wedding case.
« Reply #65 on: June 25, 2018, 02:18:05 PM »

Offline liam

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Sure there could be some that hide behind religion so they can discriminate, but should we punish those that are acting according to what they believe?
It is fairly simple. I know for a fact that some people sincerely believed that people of color are inferior. Now what?

What religion is that?
Why does that matter?

Not only should we have freedom of religion but also freedom from religion. Religions shouldn't be able to foist their beliefs on the rest of society. I don't foist my religious beliefs on to others and I expect the same of them.

Well, no, you don’t have the right to live in a completely secular society.

You can exercise your lack of religion. The government can’t establish a religion. But nothing says that there’s “freedom from religion”.

I said "should". I don't want to hear people drone own about their religious beliefs every where I go. Do I have to go into a bakery and want to order a cake and wonder if I can get one due to my own private religious beliefs? Why do some folks religions feel the absolute need to preach their limited view of their own bible to me, looking at you Jeff Sessions. What would Jesus think of locking up children. Christians who want to justify their bigotry always go to the old testament, maybe they should check out the words of Christ himself in the second half of the book. I pretty sure there is no red inked quote for people to "lock up the little children."

Re: Big 1st amendment win - Court rules for baker in gay wedding case.
« Reply #66 on: June 25, 2018, 02:23:46 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Sure there could be some that hide behind religion so they can discriminate, but should we punish those that are acting according to what they believe?
It is fairly simple. I know for a fact that some people sincerely believed that people of color are inferior. Now what?

What religion is that?
Why does that matter?

Not only should we have freedom of religion but also freedom from religion. Religions shouldn't be able to foist their beliefs on the rest of society. I don't foist my religious beliefs on to others and I expect the same of them.

Well, no, you don’t have the right to live in a completely secular society.

You can exercise your lack of religion. The government can’t establish a religion. But nothing says that there’s “freedom from religion”.
I think his larger point is that when someone uses religion to violate the law, the line has been crossed and that should be the deciding factor.

The Constitution is the ultimate law though, and it explicitly protects free exercise.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 02:29:16 PM by Roy H. »


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Re: Big 1st amendment win - Court rules for baker in gay wedding case.
« Reply #67 on: June 25, 2018, 02:28:26 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Sure there could be some that hide behind religion so they can discriminate, but should we punish those that are acting according to what they believe?
It is fairly simple. I know for a fact that some people sincerely believed that people of color are inferior. Now what?

What religion is that?
Why does that matter?

Not only should we have freedom of religion but also freedom from religion. Religions shouldn't be able to foist their beliefs on the rest of society. I don't foist my religious beliefs on to others and I expect the same of them.

Well, no, you don’t have the right to live in a completely secular society.

You can exercise your lack of religion. The government can’t establish a religion. But nothing says that there’s “freedom from religion”.

I said "should". I don't want to hear people drone own about their religious beliefs every where I go. Do I have to go into a bakery and want to order a cake and wonder if I can get one due to my own private religious beliefs? Why do some folks religions feel the absolute need to preach their limited view of their own bible to me, looking at you Jeff Sessions. What would Jesus think of locking up children. Christians who want to justify their bigotry always go to the old testament, maybe they should check out the words of Christ himself in the second half of the book. I pretty sure there is no red inked quote for people to "lock up the little children."

Nobody is really preaching to you.

It seems like you’re saying “you can only worship behind closed doors”, which sounds a lot like “in the closet”.  Bigotry and lack of tolerance isn’t exclusive to Judeo-Christians.


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Re: Big 1st amendment win - Court rules for baker in gay wedding case.
« Reply #68 on: June 25, 2018, 02:44:35 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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The Constitution is the ultimate law though, and it explicitly protects free exercise.
Which, in turn, begs the question, "What is free exercise". It certainly doesn't mean free pass to do anything your religion commands.
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Re: Big 1st amendment win - Court rules for baker in gay wedding case.
« Reply #69 on: June 25, 2018, 02:51:14 PM »

Offline mef730

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Here's the thing about balancing the religious freedom vs discrimination:
Bakers either violate their faith or go out of business and lose everything. The persons asking for the cake has the option to find a baker that will make what they ask for.

I don't believe a person should be forced to give up a business they worked at building in order to stay true to their faith.
What if it wasn't gay weddings that he objected to, but a wedding between a black couple, or a Mexican, Chinese, etc. couple, or an interracial couple, or persons of the Jewish, Hindu, or Islamic faith, etc. 

Would that be ok?

I think Moranis asks the key question: What happens when somebody uses religion as a justification not to serve an interracial couple? I know of no religion that supports this view, but I do know people who are somehow able to justify their objections based on their interpretation of their religion. Who is it that makes the judgment whether it's a faith-based objection, or simply someone a racist using religion as their excuse?

Mike
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Re: Big 1st amendment win - Court rules for baker in gay wedding case.
« Reply #70 on: June 25, 2018, 03:01:08 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Sure there could be some that hide behind religion so they can discriminate, but should we punish those that are acting according to what they believe?
It is fairly simple. I know for a fact that some people sincerely believed that people of color are inferior. Now what?

What religion is that?
Why does that matter?

Not only should we have freedom of religion but also freedom from religion. Religions shouldn't be able to foist their beliefs on the rest of society. I don't foist my religious beliefs on to others and I expect the same of them.

Well, no, you don’t have the right to live in a completely secular society.

You can exercise your lack of religion. The government can’t establish a religion. But nothing says that there’s “freedom from religion”.
I think his larger point is that when someone uses religion to violate the law, the line has been crossed and that should be the deciding factor.

The Constitution is the ultimate law though, and it explicitly protects free exercise.
No.  the Constitution says that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".  The Constitution doesn't allow the free exercise of Religion in any manner, only that Congress won't make a law prohibiting the free exercise of Religion. 

What if I wanted to practice the Aztec Religion (or other older religions), which had human sacrifice as a necessary part of religion.  Could I do that or would that be banned by some other law?  What if the persons all volunteered willingly to take part in the sacrifice?

Re: Big 1st amendment win - Court rules for baker in gay wedding case.
« Reply #71 on: June 25, 2018, 05:18:52 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Here's the thing about balancing the religious freedom vs discrimination:
Bakers either violate their faith or go out of business and lose everything. The persons asking for the cake has the option to find a baker that will make what they ask for.

I don't believe a person should be forced to give up a business they worked at building in order to stay true to their faith.
What if it wasn't gay weddings that he objected to, but a wedding between a black couple, or a Mexican, Chinese, etc. couple, or an interracial couple, or persons of the Jewish, Hindu, or Islamic faith, etc. 

Would that be ok?

To be clear, the baker serves homosexuals all the time, and he sells them premadw wedding cakes.

What he doesn’t do is custom design wedding cakes for gay couples because of his belief system. I think that’s fine. 


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Re: Big 1st amendment win - Court rules for baker in gay wedding case.
« Reply #72 on: June 25, 2018, 06:18:53 PM »

Offline eja117

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I'm pretty sure there are religions that won't cater to certain things. Also I guarantee if a restaurant in my town announced they weren't going to serve minorities the place would be out of business before anyone could sue them

Re: Big 1st amendment win - Court rules for baker in gay wedding case.
« Reply #73 on: June 25, 2018, 09:20:54 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
You can exercise your lack of religion. The government can’t establish a religion. But nothing says that there’s “freedom from religion”.

This is true, but I think folks get messed by separation of Church and State.   It confuses many to think of freedom from religion.

Being an atheist, nothing religious ever offends me because it is all make-believe.   Want to hang a cross to me it is a two sticks.  Show a bible, and it is some nice fiction.   Want to pray in school knock yourself out, you can't control my thoughts.   I just don't like seeing people forcibly indoctrinated in it like I was by being made to go to church when I did not want to do so.  But the whole I am offended by it, kills me, I believe it is a social construct nothing more. To qoute Napoleon Bonaparte, "All religions are made by men".  I don't have a problem with others being religious but sometimes I voice my opinions.

Quote
Also I guarantee if a restaurant in my town announced they weren't going to serve minorities the place would be out of business before anyone could sue them

Society has a way of policing itself.   I would not go to a place like that.   But some of this recent stuff is different, you having politicians on both sides telling people they should be outraged.   Pres. Trump has done it, Maxine Waters has done it.   Let people decide themselves what to be outraged about.

I wonder how Sarah H. Sanders feels about the Supreme Court right now?  I also think the owners had that right, I don't agree with their decision, but it is private property that they own.   If we start excluding folks for their political views we are doomed worse than we already are folks.

Re: Big 1st amendment win - Court rules for baker in gay wedding case.
« Reply #74 on: June 25, 2018, 09:32:54 PM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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If they are using "religious freedoms" to deny cakes to same sex couples, then I want to see them deny cakes to the following.

1. Divorcees who are re-marrying. (Malachi 2:16, Matthew 5:31-32)

2. Couples with tattoos. (Leviticus 19:28)

3. Grooms that shave. (Leviticus 21:5)

4. Brides that are non virgins. (Deuteronomy 22:13–21, in fact, you have to stone her to death too)

5. Couples wearing clothes with two different fibers. (Leviticus 19:19)

...among many, many others.

If they want to invoke religious freedoms, then don't be nitpicky on just one subject, Otherwise, isn't it just straight up hypocrisy and bigotry?

But that's just me.

 
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