Author Topic: Sixers open with best eastern title odds next year  (Read 12101 times)

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Re: Sixers open with best eastern title odds next year
« Reply #60 on: June 05, 2018, 02:24:41 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Lebron hates playing with young people so much that, he went back to Cleveland to play with a 22 year old Kyrie Irving who had just finished his 3rd season in the league.  Other starters or key members on that team, 3rd year 23 year old Dion Waiters; 4th year, 23 year old Tristan Thompson; and 2nd year 24 year old Dellavedova.  So in sum, Lebron James' 1st season back in Cleveland the opening day rotation included himself, Varejao, Love, 4 players on their rookie contracts, and the 8th and 9th men were Marion and Miller.  Man he hates playing with young players (and let's not pretend it was a given that Kevin Love would even be on that team, there was a real possibility that trade doesn't happen and Wiggins and Bennett are also on that opening day roster).   

So I make like 8 key points everything that needs to happen for Lebron to go to Philly. You decide to:
1) Latch onto one tangential point of it
2) Do so inaccurately

It was widely reported and that Lebron had trading Wiggins and Bennet for Love as an unspoken condition of his ending up there. As someone that worships Lebron I know you are aware of this. It has also been widely speculated that Lebron pushed for the trade of Waiters for Smith and Shumpert. I know you remember this:

https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2014/12/26/7452347/dion-waiters-wide-open-lebron-james-pass-ball


Can you not derail the conversation with a weird inaccurate statement that is not even related to the meat of the discussion?

If you are not understanding what the meat is, it is:
The 76ers may not have a GM two weeks from now
They may have one that many players don't trust
How do they orchestrate the best offseason in nba history with a guy embattled or his first week on the job?
Leonard has not demanded a trade nor have the spurs said he will be traded
If leonard is traded we don't know whether it is for retooling or reloading?
Why would they would a mix of guys in their mid to late 20's and unproven prospects in either scenario?

Lets have you address some of that rather than a bunch of Lebron nonsense I know you don't even believe in your heart.
Because your points are mostly moot and not generally based in the reality of the James to Philly rumors.  Leonard very well might be in San Antonio next year, but it has no bearing on whether or not the Sixers can use assets to acquire veterans.  Leonard is one of many veterans that may or may not be available. 

And let's think about this logically even if the Lakers add Paul George, are they better than the Sixers?  I mean the Sixers are coming off a 52 win season and 2nd round playoff appearance, and have full max cap space and the 10th and 26th picks in the draft (and got nothing from the most recent 1st pick in the draft).  They also don't have to play both Houston and Golden State on their way to the Finals.  In this scenario, the Lakers with George would still have close to full max cap space and the 25th pick, but would lose IT and Randle to do it.  George also plays the same position as Ingram (or Kuzma).  Which team would you project for more wins or a better season?  Even with Paul George, Lebron still might choose the Sixers who will more then likely still be the better underlying team.  In addition, the Sixers also have better top end young talent (Embiid, Simmons >>>> Ingram, Ball).  They have better role players and a much deeper overall roster with far more assets to acquire more and better fitting veteran role players (much like the Waiters trade). 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Sixers open with best eastern title odds next year
« Reply #61 on: June 05, 2018, 02:37:31 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Lebron hates playing with young people so much that, he went back to Cleveland to play with a 22 year old Kyrie Irving who had just finished his 3rd season in the league.  Other starters or key members on that team, 3rd year 23 year old Dion Waiters; 4th year, 23 year old Tristan Thompson; and 2nd year 24 year old Dellavedova.  So in sum, Lebron James' 1st season back in Cleveland the opening day rotation included himself, Varejao, Love, 4 players on their rookie contracts, and the 8th and 9th men were Marion and Miller.  Man he hates playing with young players (and let's not pretend it was a given that Kevin Love would even be on that team, there was a real possibility that trade doesn't happen and Wiggins and Bennett are also on that opening day roster).   

So I make like 8 key points everything that needs to happen for Lebron to go to Philly. You decide to:
1) Latch onto one tangential point of it
2) Do so inaccurately

It was widely reported and that Lebron had trading Wiggins and Bennet for Love as an unspoken condition of his ending up there. As someone that worships Lebron I know you are aware of this. It has also been widely speculated that Lebron pushed for the trade of Waiters for Smith and Shumpert. I know you remember this:

https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2014/12/26/7452347/dion-waiters-wide-open-lebron-james-pass-ball


Can you not derail the conversation with a weird inaccurate statement that is not even related to the meat of the discussion?

If you are not understanding what the meat is, it is:
The 76ers may not have a GM two weeks from now
They may have one that many players don't trust
How do they orchestrate the best offseason in nba history with a guy embattled or his first week on the job?
Leonard has not demanded a trade nor have the spurs said he will be traded
If leonard is traded we don't know whether it is for retooling or reloading?
Why would they would a mix of guys in their mid to late 20's and unproven prospects in either scenario?

Lets have you address some of that rather than a bunch of Lebron nonsense I know you don't even believe in your heart.
Because your points are mostly moot and not generally based in the reality of the James to Philly rumors.  Leonard very well might be in San Antonio next year, but it has no bearing on whether or not the Sixers can use assets to acquire veterans.  Leonard is one of many veterans that may or may not be available. 

And let's think about this logically even if the Lakers add Paul George, are they better than the Sixers?  I mean the Sixers are coming off a 52 win season and 2nd round playoff appearance, and have full max cap space and the 10th and 26th picks in the draft (and got nothing from the most recent 1st pick in the draft).  They also don't have to play both Houston and Golden State on their way to the Finals.  In this scenario, the Lakers with George would still have close to full max cap space and the 25th pick, but would lose IT and Randle to do it.  George also plays the same position as Ingram (or Kuzma).  Which team would you project for more wins or a better season?  Even with Paul George, Lebron still might choose the Sixers who will more then likely still be the better underlying team.  In addition, the Sixers also have better top end young talent (Embiid, Simmons >>>> Ingram, Ball).  They have better role players and a much deeper overall roster with far more assets to acquire more and better fitting veteran role players (much like the Waiters trade).

My opinion is that a team of George, ball, Ingram, Kutz, Lebron and vets has a higher ceiling than Philly with Lebron, Covington, Simmons embid fultz over the next year or two. We can disagree on that though, it's fine and I don't think either is insane argument to make. However to your first point about the 76ers getting another star if Leonard isn't traded there is a lot weaker market than last year. The only guy I have actually heard being on the market is walker. Last year in a three month period cousins, butler and George where all clearly on the market. There certainly could be a surprise entry from Toronto or maybe someone like towns, but right now it is fantasy. A fantasy that becomes even tougher to imagine given the 76ers current front office situation.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2018, 02:48:49 PM by celticsclay »

Re: Sixers open with best eastern title odds next year
« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2018, 03:23:02 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Lebron hates playing with young people so much that, he went back to Cleveland to play with a 22 year old Kyrie Irving who had just finished his 3rd season in the league.  Other starters or key members on that team, 3rd year 23 year old Dion Waiters; 4th year, 23 year old Tristan Thompson; and 2nd year 24 year old Dellavedova.  So in sum, Lebron James' 1st season back in Cleveland the opening day rotation included himself, Varejao, Love, 4 players on their rookie contracts, and the 8th and 9th men were Marion and Miller.  Man he hates playing with young players (and let's not pretend it was a given that Kevin Love would even be on that team, there was a real possibility that trade doesn't happen and Wiggins and Bennett are also on that opening day roster).   

So I make like 8 key points everything that needs to happen for Lebron to go to Philly. You decide to:
1) Latch onto one tangential point of it
2) Do so inaccurately

It was widely reported and that Lebron had trading Wiggins and Bennet for Love as an unspoken condition of his ending up there. As someone that worships Lebron I know you are aware of this. It has also been widely speculated that Lebron pushed for the trade of Waiters for Smith and Shumpert. I know you remember this:

https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2014/12/26/7452347/dion-waiters-wide-open-lebron-james-pass-ball


Can you not derail the conversation with a weird inaccurate statement that is not even related to the meat of the discussion?

If you are not understanding what the meat is, it is:
The 76ers may not have a GM two weeks from now
They may have one that many players don't trust
How do they orchestrate the best offseason in nba history with a guy embattled or his first week on the job?
Leonard has not demanded a trade nor have the spurs said he will be traded
If leonard is traded we don't know whether it is for retooling or reloading?
Why would they would a mix of guys in their mid to late 20's and unproven prospects in either scenario?

Lets have you address some of that rather than a bunch of Lebron nonsense I know you don't even believe in your heart.
Because your points are mostly moot and not generally based in the reality of the James to Philly rumors.  Leonard very well might be in San Antonio next year, but it has no bearing on whether or not the Sixers can use assets to acquire veterans.  Leonard is one of many veterans that may or may not be available. 

And let's think about this logically even if the Lakers add Paul George, are they better than the Sixers?  I mean the Sixers are coming off a 52 win season and 2nd round playoff appearance, and have full max cap space and the 10th and 26th picks in the draft (and got nothing from the most recent 1st pick in the draft).  They also don't have to play both Houston and Golden State on their way to the Finals.  In this scenario, the Lakers with George would still have close to full max cap space and the 25th pick, but would lose IT and Randle to do it.  George also plays the same position as Ingram (or Kuzma).  Which team would you project for more wins or a better season?  Even with Paul George, Lebron still might choose the Sixers who will more then likely still be the better underlying team.  In addition, the Sixers also have better top end young talent (Embiid, Simmons >>>> Ingram, Ball).  They have better role players and a much deeper overall roster with far more assets to acquire more and better fitting veteran role players (much like the Waiters trade).

My opinion is that a team of George, ball, Ingram, Kutz, Lebron and vets has a higher ceiling than Philly with Lebron, Covington, Simmons embid fultz over the next year or two. We can disagree on that though, it's fine and I don't think either is insane argument to make. However to your first point about the 76ers getting another star if Leonard isn't traded there is a lot weaker market than last year. The only guy I have actually heard being on the market is walker. Last year in a three month period cousins, butler and George where all clearly on the market. There certainly could be a surprise entry from Toronto or maybe someone like towns, but right now it is fantasy. A fantasy that becomes even tougher to imagine given the 76ers current front office situation.
Why do the Sixers need to acquire a star though (I said vets - and obviously meant more then the vet minimum type guys, but certainly doesn't need to be a star)?  Sure it helps, but Embiid is an all star already and Simmons nearly was.  Most people would expect both of them to be all stars next year.  Adding James, that gives them 3 all stars.  The Lakers won't have that even with James and George (no one else on that team is getting anywhere near an all star team next year). 

Also, I'd be surprised if McCollum and Beal aren't at least on the table (they might not get moved, but I think they will be shopped).  I could totally see Klay Thompson getting moved if he elects to not sign an extension or makes it known he won't take a discount (I don't think it happens, but wouldn't write it off as crazy talk either).  Toronto absolutely could decide to move on from DeRozan and/or Lowry (or Ibaka).  I'd be pretty surprised if Kemba Walker enters free agency as a Hornet.  That is right now.  Free agency will change things.  What if George leaves and stunningly Anthony opts out.  Would the Thunder entertain moving Westbrook?  Maybe.  Perhaps Denver decides the Paul Millsap experiment was a failure and want to cut their losses.  Maybe the Clippers or Grizzlies decide to sell off assets and go full bore into rebuilding.  The Wolves have way too much salary on the books, maybe they move on from someone.  then of course there is the Demarcus Cousins wild card.  What if he wants to play with Lebron in Philly?  Would the Pelicans sign and trade him to the Sixers for Covington, Saric, Bayless, Fultz? 

Lots can happen, but even if they don't make major moves a top 3 of James, Embiid, and Simmons would be incredibly difficult for most teams to defend. 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Sixers open with best eastern title odds next year
« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2018, 03:32:18 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Lebron hates playing with young people so much that, he went back to Cleveland to play with a 22 year old Kyrie Irving who had just finished his 3rd season in the league.  Other starters or key members on that team, 3rd year 23 year old Dion Waiters; 4th year, 23 year old Tristan Thompson; and 2nd year 24 year old Dellavedova.  So in sum, Lebron James' 1st season back in Cleveland the opening day rotation included himself, Varejao, Love, 4 players on their rookie contracts, and the 8th and 9th men were Marion and Miller.  Man he hates playing with young players (and let's not pretend it was a given that Kevin Love would even be on that team, there was a real possibility that trade doesn't happen and Wiggins and Bennett are also on that opening day roster).   

So I make like 8 key points everything that needs to happen for Lebron to go to Philly. You decide to:
1) Latch onto one tangential point of it
2) Do so inaccurately

It was widely reported and that Lebron had trading Wiggins and Bennet for Love as an unspoken condition of his ending up there. As someone that worships Lebron I know you are aware of this. It has also been widely speculated that Lebron pushed for the trade of Waiters for Smith and Shumpert. I know you remember this:

https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2014/12/26/7452347/dion-waiters-wide-open-lebron-james-pass-ball


Can you not derail the conversation with a weird inaccurate statement that is not even related to the meat of the discussion?

If you are not understanding what the meat is, it is:
The 76ers may not have a GM two weeks from now
They may have one that many players don't trust
How do they orchestrate the best offseason in nba history with a guy embattled or his first week on the job?
Leonard has not demanded a trade nor have the spurs said he will be traded
If leonard is traded we don't know whether it is for retooling or reloading?
Why would they would a mix of guys in their mid to late 20's and unproven prospects in either scenario?

Lets have you address some of that rather than a bunch of Lebron nonsense I know you don't even believe in your heart.
Because your points are mostly moot and not generally based in the reality of the James to Philly rumors.  Leonard very well might be in San Antonio next year, but it has no bearing on whether or not the Sixers can use assets to acquire veterans.  Leonard is one of many veterans that may or may not be available. 

And let's think about this logically even if the Lakers add Paul George, are they better than the Sixers?  I mean the Sixers are coming off a 52 win season and 2nd round playoff appearance, and have full max cap space and the 10th and 26th picks in the draft (and got nothing from the most recent 1st pick in the draft).  They also don't have to play both Houston and Golden State on their way to the Finals.  In this scenario, the Lakers with George would still have close to full max cap space and the 25th pick, but would lose IT and Randle to do it.  George also plays the same position as Ingram (or Kuzma).  Which team would you project for more wins or a better season?  Even with Paul George, Lebron still might choose the Sixers who will more then likely still be the better underlying team.  In addition, the Sixers also have better top end young talent (Embiid, Simmons >>>> Ingram, Ball).  They have better role players and a much deeper overall roster with far more assets to acquire more and better fitting veteran role players (much like the Waiters trade).

My opinion is that a team of George, ball, Ingram, Kutz, Lebron and vets has a higher ceiling than Philly with Lebron, Covington, Simmons embid fultz over the next year or two. We can disagree on that though, it's fine and I don't think either is insane argument to make. However to your first point about the 76ers getting another star if Leonard isn't traded there is a lot weaker market than last year. The only guy I have actually heard being on the market is walker. Last year in a three month period cousins, butler and George where all clearly on the market. There certainly could be a surprise entry from Toronto or maybe someone like towns, but right now it is fantasy. A fantasy that becomes even tougher to imagine given the 76ers current front office situation.
Why do the Sixers need to acquire a star though (I said vets - and obviously meant more then the vet minimum type guys, but certainly doesn't need to be a star)?  Sure it helps, but Embiid is an all star already and Simmons nearly was.  Most people would expect both of them to be all stars next year.  Adding James, that gives them 3 all stars.  The Lakers won't have that even with James and George (no one else on that team is getting anywhere near an all star team next year). 

Also, I'd be surprised if McCollum and Beal aren't at least on the table (they might not get moved, but I think they will be shopped).  I could totally see Klay Thompson getting moved if he elects to not sign an extension or makes it known he won't take a discount (I don't think it happens, but wouldn't write it off as crazy talk either).  Toronto absolutely could decide to move on from DeRozan and/or Lowry (or Ibaka).  I'd be pretty surprised if Kemba Walker enters free agency as a Hornet.  That is right now.  Free agency will change things.  What if George leaves and stunningly Anthony opts out.  Would the Thunder entertain moving Westbrook?  Maybe.  Perhaps Denver decides the Paul Millsap experiment was a failure and want to cut their losses.  Maybe the Clippers or Grizzlies decide to sell off assets and go full bore into rebuilding.  The Wolves have way too much salary on the books, maybe they move on from someone.  then of course there is the Demarcus Cousins wild card.  What if he wants to play with Lebron in Philly?  Would the Pelicans sign and trade him to the Sixers for Covington, Saric, Bayless, Fultz? 

Lots can happen, but even if they don't make major moves a top 3 of James, Embiid, and Simmons would be incredibly difficult for most teams to defend.

I think this is a really good example of a common tactic you have in our debates where if you want something to happen or like a certain team, you look at all their possibilities through extremely optimistic lenses and if you don't, it becomes extremely pessimistic.

Why is Simmons clearly a star and potential all-star, despite having a major flaw in his game that the Celtics gave the template on shutting down in the playoffs, but Ingram is not?

Ingrahm averaged 16 points, 5 rebounds and 4 assists on 47% shooting last year and 39% from 3. Before getting injured, he had turned it on even more during the month of March averaging 18.5, 5 and 5.5 on 54% shooting from the field and 52% from 3 (the Lakers were also above .500 for the month. How can you so easily dismiss him with those numbers?
You would literally be drooling if he put them up on the 76ers as a 20 year old. Those are incredible numbers and he was being recognized around the league for an astonishing jump between year 1 and 2.

Re: Sixers open with best eastern title odds next year
« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2018, 03:54:45 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Lebron hates playing with young people so much that, he went back to Cleveland to play with a 22 year old Kyrie Irving who had just finished his 3rd season in the league.  Other starters or key members on that team, 3rd year 23 year old Dion Waiters; 4th year, 23 year old Tristan Thompson; and 2nd year 24 year old Dellavedova.  So in sum, Lebron James' 1st season back in Cleveland the opening day rotation included himself, Varejao, Love, 4 players on their rookie contracts, and the 8th and 9th men were Marion and Miller.  Man he hates playing with young players (and let's not pretend it was a given that Kevin Love would even be on that team, there was a real possibility that trade doesn't happen and Wiggins and Bennett are also on that opening day roster).   

So I make like 8 key points everything that needs to happen for Lebron to go to Philly. You decide to:
1) Latch onto one tangential point of it
2) Do so inaccurately

It was widely reported and that Lebron had trading Wiggins and Bennet for Love as an unspoken condition of his ending up there. As someone that worships Lebron I know you are aware of this. It has also been widely speculated that Lebron pushed for the trade of Waiters for Smith and Shumpert. I know you remember this:

https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2014/12/26/7452347/dion-waiters-wide-open-lebron-james-pass-ball


Can you not derail the conversation with a weird inaccurate statement that is not even related to the meat of the discussion?

If you are not understanding what the meat is, it is:
The 76ers may not have a GM two weeks from now
They may have one that many players don't trust
How do they orchestrate the best offseason in nba history with a guy embattled or his first week on the job?
Leonard has not demanded a trade nor have the spurs said he will be traded
If leonard is traded we don't know whether it is for retooling or reloading?
Why would they would a mix of guys in their mid to late 20's and unproven prospects in either scenario?

Lets have you address some of that rather than a bunch of Lebron nonsense I know you don't even believe in your heart.
Because your points are mostly moot and not generally based in the reality of the James to Philly rumors.  Leonard very well might be in San Antonio next year, but it has no bearing on whether or not the Sixers can use assets to acquire veterans.  Leonard is one of many veterans that may or may not be available. 

And let's think about this logically even if the Lakers add Paul George, are they better than the Sixers?  I mean the Sixers are coming off a 52 win season and 2nd round playoff appearance, and have full max cap space and the 10th and 26th picks in the draft (and got nothing from the most recent 1st pick in the draft).  They also don't have to play both Houston and Golden State on their way to the Finals.  In this scenario, the Lakers with George would still have close to full max cap space and the 25th pick, but would lose IT and Randle to do it.  George also plays the same position as Ingram (or Kuzma).  Which team would you project for more wins or a better season?  Even with Paul George, Lebron still might choose the Sixers who will more then likely still be the better underlying team.  In addition, the Sixers also have better top end young talent (Embiid, Simmons >>>> Ingram, Ball).  They have better role players and a much deeper overall roster with far more assets to acquire more and better fitting veteran role players (much like the Waiters trade).

My opinion is that a team of George, ball, Ingram, Kutz, Lebron and vets has a higher ceiling than Philly with Lebron, Covington, Simmons embid fultz over the next year or two. We can disagree on that though, it's fine and I don't think either is insane argument to make. However to your first point about the 76ers getting another star if Leonard isn't traded there is a lot weaker market than last year. The only guy I have actually heard being on the market is walker. Last year in a three month period cousins, butler and George where all clearly on the market. There certainly could be a surprise entry from Toronto or maybe someone like towns, but right now it is fantasy. A fantasy that becomes even tougher to imagine given the 76ers current front office situation.
Why do the Sixers need to acquire a star though (I said vets - and obviously meant more then the vet minimum type guys, but certainly doesn't need to be a star)?  Sure it helps, but Embiid is an all star already and Simmons nearly was.  Most people would expect both of them to be all stars next year.  Adding James, that gives them 3 all stars.  The Lakers won't have that even with James and George (no one else on that team is getting anywhere near an all star team next year). 

Also, I'd be surprised if McCollum and Beal aren't at least on the table (they might not get moved, but I think they will be shopped).  I could totally see Klay Thompson getting moved if he elects to not sign an extension or makes it known he won't take a discount (I don't think it happens, but wouldn't write it off as crazy talk either).  Toronto absolutely could decide to move on from DeRozan and/or Lowry (or Ibaka).  I'd be pretty surprised if Kemba Walker enters free agency as a Hornet.  That is right now.  Free agency will change things.  What if George leaves and stunningly Anthony opts out.  Would the Thunder entertain moving Westbrook?  Maybe.  Perhaps Denver decides the Paul Millsap experiment was a failure and want to cut their losses.  Maybe the Clippers or Grizzlies decide to sell off assets and go full bore into rebuilding.  The Wolves have way too much salary on the books, maybe they move on from someone.  then of course there is the Demarcus Cousins wild card.  What if he wants to play with Lebron in Philly?  Would the Pelicans sign and trade him to the Sixers for Covington, Saric, Bayless, Fultz? 

Lots can happen, but even if they don't make major moves a top 3 of James, Embiid, and Simmons would be incredibly difficult for most teams to defend.

I think this is a really good example of a common tactic you have in our debates where if you want something to happen or like a certain team, you look at all their possibilities through extremely optimistic lenses and if you don't, it becomes extremely pessimistic.

Why is Simmons clearly a star and potential all-star, despite having a major flaw in his game that the Celtics gave the template on shutting down in the playoffs, but Ingram is not?

Ingrahm averaged 16 points, 5 rebounds and 4 assists on 47% shooting last year and 39% from 3. Before getting injured, he had turned it on even more during the month of March averaging 18.5, 5 and 5.5 on 54% shooting from the field and 52% from 3 (the Lakers were also above .500 for the month. How can you so easily dismiss him with those numbers?
You would literally be drooling if he put them up on the 76ers as a 20 year old. Those are incredible numbers and he was being recognized around the league for an astonishing jump between year 1 and 2.
Ben Simmons was nearly named to the all star game this year.  Brandon Ingram was not.  And this shutting down you speak of, still led to 47.5% shooting (69.6% from the line) and averages of 14.4 p, 8.2 r, 6.4 a with a steal and a block per game and that includes his 1 point game.  The other 4 games in the series Simmons averaged between 16 and 19 points with 11 to 15 shots.  This was Simmons 1st year in the league.  How did Ingram do in the playoffs in either of his 1st 2 seasons? 

And let's be real, Ingram can't defend a chair.  You talk about Simmons' shooting flaw and then completely disregard how useless Ingram is one end of the floor.  And for all that great shooting(for the record Simmons TS% was a fair bit higher than Ingram's even with the 3 point shooting discrepancy), Simmons still had a much better ORTG, OBPM, OWS, etc. than Ingram.  Because shockingly there is more to offense then being able to shoot the ball well from distance.  Defensively the gap is as large as the gap between Ingram and Simmons 3 point shooting.  Ingram is very young and very talented, he will get better, but Simmons is far closer to an all star than Ingram is, and it isn't close right now.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Sixers open with best eastern title odds next year
« Reply #65 on: June 05, 2018, 04:00:03 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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Lebron hates playing with young people so much that, he went back to Cleveland to play with a 22 year old Kyrie Irving who had just finished his 3rd season in the league.  Other starters or key members on that team, 3rd year 23 year old Dion Waiters; 4th year, 23 year old Tristan Thompson; and 2nd year 24 year old Dellavedova.  So in sum, Lebron James' 1st season back in Cleveland the opening day rotation included himself, Varejao, Love, 4 players on their rookie contracts, and the 8th and 9th men were Marion and Miller.  Man he hates playing with young players (and let's not pretend it was a given that Kevin Love would even be on that team, there was a real possibility that trade doesn't happen and Wiggins and Bennett are also on that opening day roster).   

So I make like 8 key points everything that needs to happen for Lebron to go to Philly. You decide to:
1) Latch onto one tangential point of it
2) Do so inaccurately

It was widely reported and that Lebron had trading Wiggins and Bennet for Love as an unspoken condition of his ending up there. As someone that worships Lebron I know you are aware of this. It has also been widely speculated that Lebron pushed for the trade of Waiters for Smith and Shumpert. I know you remember this:

https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2014/12/26/7452347/dion-waiters-wide-open-lebron-james-pass-ball


Can you not derail the conversation with a weird inaccurate statement that is not even related to the meat of the discussion?

If you are not understanding what the meat is, it is:
The 76ers may not have a GM two weeks from now
They may have one that many players don't trust
How do they orchestrate the best offseason in nba history with a guy embattled or his first week on the job?
Leonard has not demanded a trade nor have the spurs said he will be traded
If leonard is traded we don't know whether it is for retooling or reloading?
Why would they would a mix of guys in their mid to late 20's and unproven prospects in either scenario?

Lets have you address some of that rather than a bunch of Lebron nonsense I know you don't even believe in your heart.
Because your points are mostly moot and not generally based in the reality of the James to Philly rumors.  Leonard very well might be in San Antonio next year, but it has no bearing on whether or not the Sixers can use assets to acquire veterans.  Leonard is one of many veterans that may or may not be available. 

And let's think about this logically even if the Lakers add Paul George, are they better than the Sixers?  I mean the Sixers are coming off a 52 win season and 2nd round playoff appearance, and have full max cap space and the 10th and 26th picks in the draft (and got nothing from the most recent 1st pick in the draft).  They also don't have to play both Houston and Golden State on their way to the Finals.  In this scenario, the Lakers with George would still have close to full max cap space and the 25th pick, but would lose IT and Randle to do it.  George also plays the same position as Ingram (or Kuzma).  Which team would you project for more wins or a better season?  Even with Paul George, Lebron still might choose the Sixers who will more then likely still be the better underlying team.  In addition, the Sixers also have better top end young talent (Embiid, Simmons >>>> Ingram, Ball).  They have better role players and a much deeper overall roster with far more assets to acquire more and better fitting veteran role players (much like the Waiters trade).

My opinion is that a team of George, ball, Ingram, Kutz, Lebron and vets has a higher ceiling than Philly with Lebron, Covington, Simmons embid fultz over the next year or two. We can disagree on that though, it's fine and I don't think either is insane argument to make. However to your first point about the 76ers getting another star if Leonard isn't traded there is a lot weaker market than last year. The only guy I have actually heard being on the market is walker. Last year in a three month period cousins, butler and George where all clearly on the market. There certainly could be a surprise entry from Toronto or maybe someone like towns, but right now it is fantasy. A fantasy that becomes even tougher to imagine given the 76ers current front office situation.
Why do the Sixers need to acquire a star though (I said vets - and obviously meant more then the vet minimum type guys, but certainly doesn't need to be a star)?  Sure it helps, but Embiid is an all star already and Simmons nearly was.  Most people would expect both of them to be all stars next year.  Adding James, that gives them 3 all stars.  The Lakers won't have that even with James and George (no one else on that team is getting anywhere near an all star team next year). 

Also, I'd be surprised if McCollum and Beal aren't at least on the table (they might not get moved, but I think they will be shopped).  I could totally see Klay Thompson getting moved if he elects to not sign an extension or makes it known he won't take a discount (I don't think it happens, but wouldn't write it off as crazy talk either).  Toronto absolutely could decide to move on from DeRozan and/or Lowry (or Ibaka).  I'd be pretty surprised if Kemba Walker enters free agency as a Hornet.  That is right now.  Free agency will change things.  What if George leaves and stunningly Anthony opts out.  Would the Thunder entertain moving Westbrook?  Maybe.  Perhaps Denver decides the Paul Millsap experiment was a failure and want to cut their losses.  Maybe the Clippers or Grizzlies decide to sell off assets and go full bore into rebuilding.  The Wolves have way too much salary on the books, maybe they move on from someone.  then of course there is the Demarcus Cousins wild card.  What if he wants to play with Lebron in Philly?  Would the Pelicans sign and trade him to the Sixers for Covington, Saric, Bayless, Fultz? 

Lots can happen, but even if they don't make major moves a top 3 of James, Embiid, and Simmons would be incredibly difficult for most teams to defend.

I think this is a really good example of a common tactic you have in our debates where if you want something to happen or like a certain team, you look at all their possibilities through extremely optimistic lenses and if you don't, it becomes extremely pessimistic.

Why is Simmons clearly a star and potential all-star, despite having a major flaw in his game that the Celtics gave the template on shutting down in the playoffs, but Ingram is not?

Ingrahm averaged 16 points, 5 rebounds and 4 assists on 47% shooting last year and 39% from 3. Before getting injured, he had turned it on even more during the month of March averaging 18.5, 5 and 5.5 on 54% shooting from the field and 52% from 3 (the Lakers were also above .500 for the month. How can you so easily dismiss him with those numbers?
You would literally be drooling if he put them up on the 76ers as a 20 year old. Those are incredible numbers and he was being recognized around the league for an astonishing jump between year 1 and 2.
Ben Simmons was nearly named to the all star game this year.  Brandon Ingram was not.  And this shutting down you speak of, still led to 47.5% shooting (69.6% from the line) and averages of 14.4 p, 8.2 r, 6.4 a with a steal and a block per game and that includes his 1 point game.  The other 4 games in the series Simmons averaged between 16 and 19 points with 11 to 15 shots.  This was Simmons 1st year in the league.  How did Ingram do in the playoffs in either of his 1st 2 seasons? 

And let's be real, Ingram can't defend a chair.  You talk about Simmons' shooting flaw and then completely disregard how useless Ingram is one end of the floor.  And for all that great shooting(for the record Simmons TS% was a fair bit higher than Ingram's even with the 3 point shooting discrepancy), Simmons still had a much better ORTG, OBPM, OWS, etc. than Ingram.  Because shockingly there is more to offense then being able to shoot the ball well from distance.  Defensively the gap is as large as the gap between Ingram and Simmons 3 point shooting.  Ingram is very young and very talented, he will get better, but Simmons is far closer to an all star than Ingram is, and it isn't close right now.
Simmons is considerably older than Ingram.

Re: Sixers open with best eastern title odds next year
« Reply #66 on: June 05, 2018, 04:10:03 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Lebron hates playing with young people so much that, he went back to Cleveland to play with a 22 year old Kyrie Irving who had just finished his 3rd season in the league.  Other starters or key members on that team, 3rd year 23 year old Dion Waiters; 4th year, 23 year old Tristan Thompson; and 2nd year 24 year old Dellavedova.  So in sum, Lebron James' 1st season back in Cleveland the opening day rotation included himself, Varejao, Love, 4 players on their rookie contracts, and the 8th and 9th men were Marion and Miller.  Man he hates playing with young players (and let's not pretend it was a given that Kevin Love would even be on that team, there was a real possibility that trade doesn't happen and Wiggins and Bennett are also on that opening day roster).   

So I make like 8 key points everything that needs to happen for Lebron to go to Philly. You decide to:
1) Latch onto one tangential point of it
2) Do so inaccurately

It was widely reported and that Lebron had trading Wiggins and Bennet for Love as an unspoken condition of his ending up there. As someone that worships Lebron I know you are aware of this. It has also been widely speculated that Lebron pushed for the trade of Waiters for Smith and Shumpert. I know you remember this:

https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2014/12/26/7452347/dion-waiters-wide-open-lebron-james-pass-ball


Can you not derail the conversation with a weird inaccurate statement that is not even related to the meat of the discussion?

If you are not understanding what the meat is, it is:
The 76ers may not have a GM two weeks from now
They may have one that many players don't trust
How do they orchestrate the best offseason in nba history with a guy embattled or his first week on the job?
Leonard has not demanded a trade nor have the spurs said he will be traded
If leonard is traded we don't know whether it is for retooling or reloading?
Why would they would a mix of guys in their mid to late 20's and unproven prospects in either scenario?

Lets have you address some of that rather than a bunch of Lebron nonsense I know you don't even believe in your heart.
Because your points are mostly moot and not generally based in the reality of the James to Philly rumors.  Leonard very well might be in San Antonio next year, but it has no bearing on whether or not the Sixers can use assets to acquire veterans.  Leonard is one of many veterans that may or may not be available. 

And let's think about this logically even if the Lakers add Paul George, are they better than the Sixers?  I mean the Sixers are coming off a 52 win season and 2nd round playoff appearance, and have full max cap space and the 10th and 26th picks in the draft (and got nothing from the most recent 1st pick in the draft).  They also don't have to play both Houston and Golden State on their way to the Finals.  In this scenario, the Lakers with George would still have close to full max cap space and the 25th pick, but would lose IT and Randle to do it.  George also plays the same position as Ingram (or Kuzma).  Which team would you project for more wins or a better season?  Even with Paul George, Lebron still might choose the Sixers who will more then likely still be the better underlying team.  In addition, the Sixers also have better top end young talent (Embiid, Simmons >>>> Ingram, Ball).  They have better role players and a much deeper overall roster with far more assets to acquire more and better fitting veteran role players (much like the Waiters trade).

My opinion is that a team of George, ball, Ingram, Kutz, Lebron and vets has a higher ceiling than Philly with Lebron, Covington, Simmons embid fultz over the next year or two. We can disagree on that though, it's fine and I don't think either is insane argument to make. However to your first point about the 76ers getting another star if Leonard isn't traded there is a lot weaker market than last year. The only guy I have actually heard being on the market is walker. Last year in a three month period cousins, butler and George where all clearly on the market. There certainly could be a surprise entry from Toronto or maybe someone like towns, but right now it is fantasy. A fantasy that becomes even tougher to imagine given the 76ers current front office situation.
Why do the Sixers need to acquire a star though (I said vets - and obviously meant more then the vet minimum type guys, but certainly doesn't need to be a star)?  Sure it helps, but Embiid is an all star already and Simmons nearly was.  Most people would expect both of them to be all stars next year.  Adding James, that gives them 3 all stars.  The Lakers won't have that even with James and George (no one else on that team is getting anywhere near an all star team next year). 

Also, I'd be surprised if McCollum and Beal aren't at least on the table (they might not get moved, but I think they will be shopped).  I could totally see Klay Thompson getting moved if he elects to not sign an extension or makes it known he won't take a discount (I don't think it happens, but wouldn't write it off as crazy talk either).  Toronto absolutely could decide to move on from DeRozan and/or Lowry (or Ibaka).  I'd be pretty surprised if Kemba Walker enters free agency as a Hornet.  That is right now.  Free agency will change things.  What if George leaves and stunningly Anthony opts out.  Would the Thunder entertain moving Westbrook?  Maybe.  Perhaps Denver decides the Paul Millsap experiment was a failure and want to cut their losses.  Maybe the Clippers or Grizzlies decide to sell off assets and go full bore into rebuilding.  The Wolves have way too much salary on the books, maybe they move on from someone.  then of course there is the Demarcus Cousins wild card.  What if he wants to play with Lebron in Philly?  Would the Pelicans sign and trade him to the Sixers for Covington, Saric, Bayless, Fultz? 

Lots can happen, but even if they don't make major moves a top 3 of James, Embiid, and Simmons would be incredibly difficult for most teams to defend.

I think this is a really good example of a common tactic you have in our debates where if you want something to happen or like a certain team, you look at all their possibilities through extremely optimistic lenses and if you don't, it becomes extremely pessimistic.

Why is Simmons clearly a star and potential all-star, despite having a major flaw in his game that the Celtics gave the template on shutting down in the playoffs, but Ingram is not?

Ingrahm averaged 16 points, 5 rebounds and 4 assists on 47% shooting last year and 39% from 3. Before getting injured, he had turned it on even more during the month of March averaging 18.5, 5 and 5.5 on 54% shooting from the field and 52% from 3 (the Lakers were also above .500 for the month. How can you so easily dismiss him with those numbers?
You would literally be drooling if he put them up on the 76ers as a 20 year old. Those are incredible numbers and he was being recognized around the league for an astonishing jump between year 1 and 2.
Ben Simmons was nearly named to the all star game this year.  Brandon Ingram was not.  And this shutting down you speak of, still led to 47.5% shooting (69.6% from the line) and averages of 14.4 p, 8.2 r, 6.4 a with a steal and a block per game and that includes his 1 point game.  The other 4 games in the series Simmons averaged between 16 and 19 points with 11 to 15 shots.  This was Simmons 1st year in the league.  How did Ingram do in the playoffs in either of his 1st 2 seasons? 

And let's be real, Ingram can't defend a chair.  You talk about Simmons' shooting flaw and then completely disregard how useless Ingram is one end of the floor.  And for all that great shooting(for the record Simmons TS% was a fair bit higher than Ingram's even with the 3 point shooting discrepancy), Simmons still had a much better ORTG, OBPM, OWS, etc. than Ingram.  Because shockingly there is more to offense then being able to shoot the ball well from distance.  Defensively the gap is as large as the gap between Ingram and Simmons 3 point shooting.  Ingram is very young and very talented, he will get better, but Simmons is far closer to an all star than Ingram is, and it isn't close right now.
Simmons is considerably older than Ingram.

If Ingram improves as much from year two to three as he did from one to two, he will be an all-star. He is a very good player. Stop with all the rest of the noise Moranis.

Re: Sixers open with best eastern title odds next year
« Reply #67 on: June 05, 2018, 04:37:32 PM »

Offline Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33461
  • Tommy Points: 1533
Lebron hates playing with young people so much that, he went back to Cleveland to play with a 22 year old Kyrie Irving who had just finished his 3rd season in the league.  Other starters or key members on that team, 3rd year 23 year old Dion Waiters; 4th year, 23 year old Tristan Thompson; and 2nd year 24 year old Dellavedova.  So in sum, Lebron James' 1st season back in Cleveland the opening day rotation included himself, Varejao, Love, 4 players on their rookie contracts, and the 8th and 9th men were Marion and Miller.  Man he hates playing with young players (and let's not pretend it was a given that Kevin Love would even be on that team, there was a real possibility that trade doesn't happen and Wiggins and Bennett are also on that opening day roster).   

So I make like 8 key points everything that needs to happen for Lebron to go to Philly. You decide to:
1) Latch onto one tangential point of it
2) Do so inaccurately

It was widely reported and that Lebron had trading Wiggins and Bennet for Love as an unspoken condition of his ending up there. As someone that worships Lebron I know you are aware of this. It has also been widely speculated that Lebron pushed for the trade of Waiters for Smith and Shumpert. I know you remember this:

https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2014/12/26/7452347/dion-waiters-wide-open-lebron-james-pass-ball


Can you not derail the conversation with a weird inaccurate statement that is not even related to the meat of the discussion?

If you are not understanding what the meat is, it is:
The 76ers may not have a GM two weeks from now
They may have one that many players don't trust
How do they orchestrate the best offseason in nba history with a guy embattled or his first week on the job?
Leonard has not demanded a trade nor have the spurs said he will be traded
If leonard is traded we don't know whether it is for retooling or reloading?
Why would they would a mix of guys in their mid to late 20's and unproven prospects in either scenario?

Lets have you address some of that rather than a bunch of Lebron nonsense I know you don't even believe in your heart.
Because your points are mostly moot and not generally based in the reality of the James to Philly rumors.  Leonard very well might be in San Antonio next year, but it has no bearing on whether or not the Sixers can use assets to acquire veterans.  Leonard is one of many veterans that may or may not be available. 

And let's think about this logically even if the Lakers add Paul George, are they better than the Sixers?  I mean the Sixers are coming off a 52 win season and 2nd round playoff appearance, and have full max cap space and the 10th and 26th picks in the draft (and got nothing from the most recent 1st pick in the draft).  They also don't have to play both Houston and Golden State on their way to the Finals.  In this scenario, the Lakers with George would still have close to full max cap space and the 25th pick, but would lose IT and Randle to do it.  George also plays the same position as Ingram (or Kuzma).  Which team would you project for more wins or a better season?  Even with Paul George, Lebron still might choose the Sixers who will more then likely still be the better underlying team.  In addition, the Sixers also have better top end young talent (Embiid, Simmons >>>> Ingram, Ball).  They have better role players and a much deeper overall roster with far more assets to acquire more and better fitting veteran role players (much like the Waiters trade).

My opinion is that a team of George, ball, Ingram, Kutz, Lebron and vets has a higher ceiling than Philly with Lebron, Covington, Simmons embid fultz over the next year or two. We can disagree on that though, it's fine and I don't think either is insane argument to make. However to your first point about the 76ers getting another star if Leonard isn't traded there is a lot weaker market than last year. The only guy I have actually heard being on the market is walker. Last year in a three month period cousins, butler and George where all clearly on the market. There certainly could be a surprise entry from Toronto or maybe someone like towns, but right now it is fantasy. A fantasy that becomes even tougher to imagine given the 76ers current front office situation.
Why do the Sixers need to acquire a star though (I said vets - and obviously meant more then the vet minimum type guys, but certainly doesn't need to be a star)?  Sure it helps, but Embiid is an all star already and Simmons nearly was.  Most people would expect both of them to be all stars next year.  Adding James, that gives them 3 all stars.  The Lakers won't have that even with James and George (no one else on that team is getting anywhere near an all star team next year). 

Also, I'd be surprised if McCollum and Beal aren't at least on the table (they might not get moved, but I think they will be shopped).  I could totally see Klay Thompson getting moved if he elects to not sign an extension or makes it known he won't take a discount (I don't think it happens, but wouldn't write it off as crazy talk either).  Toronto absolutely could decide to move on from DeRozan and/or Lowry (or Ibaka).  I'd be pretty surprised if Kemba Walker enters free agency as a Hornet.  That is right now.  Free agency will change things.  What if George leaves and stunningly Anthony opts out.  Would the Thunder entertain moving Westbrook?  Maybe.  Perhaps Denver decides the Paul Millsap experiment was a failure and want to cut their losses.  Maybe the Clippers or Grizzlies decide to sell off assets and go full bore into rebuilding.  The Wolves have way too much salary on the books, maybe they move on from someone.  then of course there is the Demarcus Cousins wild card.  What if he wants to play with Lebron in Philly?  Would the Pelicans sign and trade him to the Sixers for Covington, Saric, Bayless, Fultz? 

Lots can happen, but even if they don't make major moves a top 3 of James, Embiid, and Simmons would be incredibly difficult for most teams to defend.

I think this is a really good example of a common tactic you have in our debates where if you want something to happen or like a certain team, you look at all their possibilities through extremely optimistic lenses and if you don't, it becomes extremely pessimistic.

Why is Simmons clearly a star and potential all-star, despite having a major flaw in his game that the Celtics gave the template on shutting down in the playoffs, but Ingram is not?

Ingrahm averaged 16 points, 5 rebounds and 4 assists on 47% shooting last year and 39% from 3. Before getting injured, he had turned it on even more during the month of March averaging 18.5, 5 and 5.5 on 54% shooting from the field and 52% from 3 (the Lakers were also above .500 for the month. How can you so easily dismiss him with those numbers?
You would literally be drooling if he put them up on the 76ers as a 20 year old. Those are incredible numbers and he was being recognized around the league for an astonishing jump between year 1 and 2.
Ben Simmons was nearly named to the all star game this year.  Brandon Ingram was not.  And this shutting down you speak of, still led to 47.5% shooting (69.6% from the line) and averages of 14.4 p, 8.2 r, 6.4 a with a steal and a block per game and that includes his 1 point game.  The other 4 games in the series Simmons averaged between 16 and 19 points with 11 to 15 shots.  This was Simmons 1st year in the league.  How did Ingram do in the playoffs in either of his 1st 2 seasons? 

And let's be real, Ingram can't defend a chair.  You talk about Simmons' shooting flaw and then completely disregard how useless Ingram is one end of the floor.  And for all that great shooting(for the record Simmons TS% was a fair bit higher than Ingram's even with the 3 point shooting discrepancy), Simmons still had a much better ORTG, OBPM, OWS, etc. than Ingram.  Because shockingly there is more to offense then being able to shoot the ball well from distance.  Defensively the gap is as large as the gap between Ingram and Simmons 3 point shooting.  Ingram is very young and very talented, he will get better, but Simmons is far closer to an all star than Ingram is, and it isn't close right now.
Simmons is considerably older than Ingram.
14 months or so
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

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Re: Sixers open with best eastern title odds next year
« Reply #68 on: June 05, 2018, 04:38:24 PM »

Offline Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33461
  • Tommy Points: 1533
Lebron hates playing with young people so much that, he went back to Cleveland to play with a 22 year old Kyrie Irving who had just finished his 3rd season in the league.  Other starters or key members on that team, 3rd year 23 year old Dion Waiters; 4th year, 23 year old Tristan Thompson; and 2nd year 24 year old Dellavedova.  So in sum, Lebron James' 1st season back in Cleveland the opening day rotation included himself, Varejao, Love, 4 players on their rookie contracts, and the 8th and 9th men were Marion and Miller.  Man he hates playing with young players (and let's not pretend it was a given that Kevin Love would even be on that team, there was a real possibility that trade doesn't happen and Wiggins and Bennett are also on that opening day roster).   

So I make like 8 key points everything that needs to happen for Lebron to go to Philly. You decide to:
1) Latch onto one tangential point of it
2) Do so inaccurately

It was widely reported and that Lebron had trading Wiggins and Bennet for Love as an unspoken condition of his ending up there. As someone that worships Lebron I know you are aware of this. It has also been widely speculated that Lebron pushed for the trade of Waiters for Smith and Shumpert. I know you remember this:

https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2014/12/26/7452347/dion-waiters-wide-open-lebron-james-pass-ball


Can you not derail the conversation with a weird inaccurate statement that is not even related to the meat of the discussion?

If you are not understanding what the meat is, it is:
The 76ers may not have a GM two weeks from now
They may have one that many players don't trust
How do they orchestrate the best offseason in nba history with a guy embattled or his first week on the job?
Leonard has not demanded a trade nor have the spurs said he will be traded
If leonard is traded we don't know whether it is for retooling or reloading?
Why would they would a mix of guys in their mid to late 20's and unproven prospects in either scenario?

Lets have you address some of that rather than a bunch of Lebron nonsense I know you don't even believe in your heart.
Because your points are mostly moot and not generally based in the reality of the James to Philly rumors.  Leonard very well might be in San Antonio next year, but it has no bearing on whether or not the Sixers can use assets to acquire veterans.  Leonard is one of many veterans that may or may not be available. 

And let's think about this logically even if the Lakers add Paul George, are they better than the Sixers?  I mean the Sixers are coming off a 52 win season and 2nd round playoff appearance, and have full max cap space and the 10th and 26th picks in the draft (and got nothing from the most recent 1st pick in the draft).  They also don't have to play both Houston and Golden State on their way to the Finals.  In this scenario, the Lakers with George would still have close to full max cap space and the 25th pick, but would lose IT and Randle to do it.  George also plays the same position as Ingram (or Kuzma).  Which team would you project for more wins or a better season?  Even with Paul George, Lebron still might choose the Sixers who will more then likely still be the better underlying team.  In addition, the Sixers also have better top end young talent (Embiid, Simmons >>>> Ingram, Ball).  They have better role players and a much deeper overall roster with far more assets to acquire more and better fitting veteran role players (much like the Waiters trade).

My opinion is that a team of George, ball, Ingram, Kutz, Lebron and vets has a higher ceiling than Philly with Lebron, Covington, Simmons embid fultz over the next year or two. We can disagree on that though, it's fine and I don't think either is insane argument to make. However to your first point about the 76ers getting another star if Leonard isn't traded there is a lot weaker market than last year. The only guy I have actually heard being on the market is walker. Last year in a three month period cousins, butler and George where all clearly on the market. There certainly could be a surprise entry from Toronto or maybe someone like towns, but right now it is fantasy. A fantasy that becomes even tougher to imagine given the 76ers current front office situation.
Why do the Sixers need to acquire a star though (I said vets - and obviously meant more then the vet minimum type guys, but certainly doesn't need to be a star)?  Sure it helps, but Embiid is an all star already and Simmons nearly was.  Most people would expect both of them to be all stars next year.  Adding James, that gives them 3 all stars.  The Lakers won't have that even with James and George (no one else on that team is getting anywhere near an all star team next year). 

Also, I'd be surprised if McCollum and Beal aren't at least on the table (they might not get moved, but I think they will be shopped).  I could totally see Klay Thompson getting moved if he elects to not sign an extension or makes it known he won't take a discount (I don't think it happens, but wouldn't write it off as crazy talk either).  Toronto absolutely could decide to move on from DeRozan and/or Lowry (or Ibaka).  I'd be pretty surprised if Kemba Walker enters free agency as a Hornet.  That is right now.  Free agency will change things.  What if George leaves and stunningly Anthony opts out.  Would the Thunder entertain moving Westbrook?  Maybe.  Perhaps Denver decides the Paul Millsap experiment was a failure and want to cut their losses.  Maybe the Clippers or Grizzlies decide to sell off assets and go full bore into rebuilding.  The Wolves have way too much salary on the books, maybe they move on from someone.  then of course there is the Demarcus Cousins wild card.  What if he wants to play with Lebron in Philly?  Would the Pelicans sign and trade him to the Sixers for Covington, Saric, Bayless, Fultz? 

Lots can happen, but even if they don't make major moves a top 3 of James, Embiid, and Simmons would be incredibly difficult for most teams to defend.

I think this is a really good example of a common tactic you have in our debates where if you want something to happen or like a certain team, you look at all their possibilities through extremely optimistic lenses and if you don't, it becomes extremely pessimistic.

Why is Simmons clearly a star and potential all-star, despite having a major flaw in his game that the Celtics gave the template on shutting down in the playoffs, but Ingram is not?

Ingrahm averaged 16 points, 5 rebounds and 4 assists on 47% shooting last year and 39% from 3. Before getting injured, he had turned it on even more during the month of March averaging 18.5, 5 and 5.5 on 54% shooting from the field and 52% from 3 (the Lakers were also above .500 for the month. How can you so easily dismiss him with those numbers?
You would literally be drooling if he put them up on the 76ers as a 20 year old. Those are incredible numbers and he was being recognized around the league for an astonishing jump between year 1 and 2.
Ben Simmons was nearly named to the all star game this year.  Brandon Ingram was not.  And this shutting down you speak of, still led to 47.5% shooting (69.6% from the line) and averages of 14.4 p, 8.2 r, 6.4 a with a steal and a block per game and that includes his 1 point game.  The other 4 games in the series Simmons averaged between 16 and 19 points with 11 to 15 shots.  This was Simmons 1st year in the league.  How did Ingram do in the playoffs in either of his 1st 2 seasons? 

And let's be real, Ingram can't defend a chair.  You talk about Simmons' shooting flaw and then completely disregard how useless Ingram is one end of the floor.  And for all that great shooting(for the record Simmons TS% was a fair bit higher than Ingram's even with the 3 point shooting discrepancy), Simmons still had a much better ORTG, OBPM, OWS, etc. than Ingram.  Because shockingly there is more to offense then being able to shoot the ball well from distance.  Defensively the gap is as large as the gap between Ingram and Simmons 3 point shooting.  Ingram is very young and very talented, he will get better, but Simmons is far closer to an all star than Ingram is, and it isn't close right now.
Simmons is considerably older than Ingram.

If Ingram improves as much from year two to three as he did from one to two, he will be an all-star. He is a very good player. Stop with all the rest of the noise Moranis.
well sure if Ingram nearly doubles his production he will be an all star.  Heck he will be a MVP candidate in that case.  That seems unlikely.

And seriously you complain about me deflecting and not responding.  Wow
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
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Re: Sixers open with best eastern title odds next year
« Reply #69 on: June 05, 2018, 04:55:40 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Lebron hates playing with young people so much that, he went back to Cleveland to play with a 22 year old Kyrie Irving who had just finished his 3rd season in the league.  Other starters or key members on that team, 3rd year 23 year old Dion Waiters; 4th year, 23 year old Tristan Thompson; and 2nd year 24 year old Dellavedova.  So in sum, Lebron James' 1st season back in Cleveland the opening day rotation included himself, Varejao, Love, 4 players on their rookie contracts, and the 8th and 9th men were Marion and Miller.  Man he hates playing with young players (and let's not pretend it was a given that Kevin Love would even be on that team, there was a real possibility that trade doesn't happen and Wiggins and Bennett are also on that opening day roster).   

So I make like 8 key points everything that needs to happen for Lebron to go to Philly. You decide to:
1) Latch onto one tangential point of it
2) Do so inaccurately

It was widely reported and that Lebron had trading Wiggins and Bennet for Love as an unspoken condition of his ending up there. As someone that worships Lebron I know you are aware of this. It has also been widely speculated that Lebron pushed for the trade of Waiters for Smith and Shumpert. I know you remember this:

https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2014/12/26/7452347/dion-waiters-wide-open-lebron-james-pass-ball


Can you not derail the conversation with a weird inaccurate statement that is not even related to the meat of the discussion?

If you are not understanding what the meat is, it is:
The 76ers may not have a GM two weeks from now
They may have one that many players don't trust
How do they orchestrate the best offseason in nba history with a guy embattled or his first week on the job?
Leonard has not demanded a trade nor have the spurs said he will be traded
If leonard is traded we don't know whether it is for retooling or reloading?
Why would they would a mix of guys in their mid to late 20's and unproven prospects in either scenario?

Lets have you address some of that rather than a bunch of Lebron nonsense I know you don't even believe in your heart.
Because your points are mostly moot and not generally based in the reality of the James to Philly rumors.  Leonard very well might be in San Antonio next year, but it has no bearing on whether or not the Sixers can use assets to acquire veterans.  Leonard is one of many veterans that may or may not be available. 

And let's think about this logically even if the Lakers add Paul George, are they better than the Sixers?  I mean the Sixers are coming off a 52 win season and 2nd round playoff appearance, and have full max cap space and the 10th and 26th picks in the draft (and got nothing from the most recent 1st pick in the draft).  They also don't have to play both Houston and Golden State on their way to the Finals.  In this scenario, the Lakers with George would still have close to full max cap space and the 25th pick, but would lose IT and Randle to do it.  George also plays the same position as Ingram (or Kuzma).  Which team would you project for more wins or a better season?  Even with Paul George, Lebron still might choose the Sixers who will more then likely still be the better underlying team.  In addition, the Sixers also have better top end young talent (Embiid, Simmons >>>> Ingram, Ball).  They have better role players and a much deeper overall roster with far more assets to acquire more and better fitting veteran role players (much like the Waiters trade).

My opinion is that a team of George, ball, Ingram, Kutz, Lebron and vets has a higher ceiling than Philly with Lebron, Covington, Simmons embid fultz over the next year or two. We can disagree on that though, it's fine and I don't think either is insane argument to make. However to your first point about the 76ers getting another star if Leonard isn't traded there is a lot weaker market than last year. The only guy I have actually heard being on the market is walker. Last year in a three month period cousins, butler and George where all clearly on the market. There certainly could be a surprise entry from Toronto or maybe someone like towns, but right now it is fantasy. A fantasy that becomes even tougher to imagine given the 76ers current front office situation.
Why do the Sixers need to acquire a star though (I said vets - and obviously meant more then the vet minimum type guys, but certainly doesn't need to be a star)?  Sure it helps, but Embiid is an all star already and Simmons nearly was.  Most people would expect both of them to be all stars next year.  Adding James, that gives them 3 all stars.  The Lakers won't have that even with James and George (no one else on that team is getting anywhere near an all star team next year). 

Also, I'd be surprised if McCollum and Beal aren't at least on the table (they might not get moved, but I think they will be shopped).  I could totally see Klay Thompson getting moved if he elects to not sign an extension or makes it known he won't take a discount (I don't think it happens, but wouldn't write it off as crazy talk either).  Toronto absolutely could decide to move on from DeRozan and/or Lowry (or Ibaka).  I'd be pretty surprised if Kemba Walker enters free agency as a Hornet.  That is right now.  Free agency will change things.  What if George leaves and stunningly Anthony opts out.  Would the Thunder entertain moving Westbrook?  Maybe.  Perhaps Denver decides the Paul Millsap experiment was a failure and want to cut their losses.  Maybe the Clippers or Grizzlies decide to sell off assets and go full bore into rebuilding.  The Wolves have way too much salary on the books, maybe they move on from someone.  then of course there is the Demarcus Cousins wild card.  What if he wants to play with Lebron in Philly?  Would the Pelicans sign and trade him to the Sixers for Covington, Saric, Bayless, Fultz? 

Lots can happen, but even if they don't make major moves a top 3 of James, Embiid, and Simmons would be incredibly difficult for most teams to defend.

I think this is a really good example of a common tactic you have in our debates where if you want something to happen or like a certain team, you look at all their possibilities through extremely optimistic lenses and if you don't, it becomes extremely pessimistic.

Why is Simmons clearly a star and potential all-star, despite having a major flaw in his game that the Celtics gave the template on shutting down in the playoffs, but Ingram is not?

Ingrahm averaged 16 points, 5 rebounds and 4 assists on 47% shooting last year and 39% from 3. Before getting injured, he had turned it on even more during the month of March averaging 18.5, 5 and 5.5 on 54% shooting from the field and 52% from 3 (the Lakers were also above .500 for the month. How can you so easily dismiss him with those numbers?
You would literally be drooling if he put them up on the 76ers as a 20 year old. Those are incredible numbers and he was being recognized around the league for an astonishing jump between year 1 and 2.
Ben Simmons was nearly named to the all star game this year.  Brandon Ingram was not.  And this shutting down you speak of, still led to 47.5% shooting (69.6% from the line) and averages of 14.4 p, 8.2 r, 6.4 a with a steal and a block per game and that includes his 1 point game.  The other 4 games in the series Simmons averaged between 16 and 19 points with 11 to 15 shots.  This was Simmons 1st year in the league.  How did Ingram do in the playoffs in either of his 1st 2 seasons? 

And let's be real, Ingram can't defend a chair.  You talk about Simmons' shooting flaw and then completely disregard how useless Ingram is one end of the floor.  And for all that great shooting(for the record Simmons TS% was a fair bit higher than Ingram's even with the 3 point shooting discrepancy), Simmons still had a much better ORTG, OBPM, OWS, etc. than Ingram.  Because shockingly there is more to offense then being able to shoot the ball well from distance.  Defensively the gap is as large as the gap between Ingram and Simmons 3 point shooting.  Ingram is very young and very talented, he will get better, but Simmons is far closer to an all star than Ingram is, and it isn't close right now.
Simmons is considerably older than Ingram.

If Ingram improves as much from year two to three as he did from one to two, he will be an all-star. He is a very good player. Stop with all the rest of the noise Moranis.
well sure if Ingram nearly doubles his production he will be an all star.  Heck he will be a MVP candidate in that case.  That seems unlikely.

And seriously you complain about me deflecting and not responding.  Wow

What didn't I respond to? You argued that the 76ers would have more stars or all-stars cause you counted Embid, Simmons and Lebron. I said I would view the Lakers the same with George, Lebron and Ingram and pointed out how great Ingram was last year and how much he improved from first to second year. Isn't that our whole discussion? What am I deflecting/not responding to? Wow

Re: Sixers open with best eastern title odds next year
« Reply #70 on: June 05, 2018, 06:13:34 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Lebron hates playing with young people so much that, he went back to Cleveland to play with a 22 year old Kyrie Irving who had just finished his 3rd season in the league.  Other starters or key members on that team, 3rd year 23 year old Dion Waiters; 4th year, 23 year old Tristan Thompson; and 2nd year 24 year old Dellavedova.  So in sum, Lebron James' 1st season back in Cleveland the opening day rotation included himself, Varejao, Love, 4 players on their rookie contracts, and the 8th and 9th men were Marion and Miller.  Man he hates playing with young players (and let's not pretend it was a given that Kevin Love would even be on that team, there was a real possibility that trade doesn't happen and Wiggins and Bennett are also on that opening day roster).   

So I make like 8 key points everything that needs to happen for Lebron to go to Philly. You decide to:
1) Latch onto one tangential point of it
2) Do so inaccurately

It was widely reported and that Lebron had trading Wiggins and Bennet for Love as an unspoken condition of his ending up there. As someone that worships Lebron I know you are aware of this. It has also been widely speculated that Lebron pushed for the trade of Waiters for Smith and Shumpert. I know you remember this:

https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2014/12/26/7452347/dion-waiters-wide-open-lebron-james-pass-ball


Can you not derail the conversation with a weird inaccurate statement that is not even related to the meat of the discussion?

If you are not understanding what the meat is, it is:
The 76ers may not have a GM two weeks from now
They may have one that many players don't trust
How do they orchestrate the best offseason in nba history with a guy embattled or his first week on the job?
Leonard has not demanded a trade nor have the spurs said he will be traded
If leonard is traded we don't know whether it is for retooling or reloading?
Why would they would a mix of guys in their mid to late 20's and unproven prospects in either scenario?

Lets have you address some of that rather than a bunch of Lebron nonsense I know you don't even believe in your heart.
Because your points are mostly moot and not generally based in the reality of the James to Philly rumors.  Leonard very well might be in San Antonio next year, but it has no bearing on whether or not the Sixers can use assets to acquire veterans.  Leonard is one of many veterans that may or may not be available. 

And let's think about this logically even if the Lakers add Paul George, are they better than the Sixers?  I mean the Sixers are coming off a 52 win season and 2nd round playoff appearance, and have full max cap space and the 10th and 26th picks in the draft (and got nothing from the most recent 1st pick in the draft).  They also don't have to play both Houston and Golden State on their way to the Finals.  In this scenario, the Lakers with George would still have close to full max cap space and the 25th pick, but would lose IT and Randle to do it.  George also plays the same position as Ingram (or Kuzma).  Which team would you project for more wins or a better season?  Even with Paul George, Lebron still might choose the Sixers who will more then likely still be the better underlying team.  In addition, the Sixers also have better top end young talent (Embiid, Simmons >>>> Ingram, Ball).  They have better role players and a much deeper overall roster with far more assets to acquire more and better fitting veteran role players (much like the Waiters trade).

My opinion is that a team of George, ball, Ingram, Kutz, Lebron and vets has a higher ceiling than Philly with Lebron, Covington, Simmons embid fultz over the next year or two. We can disagree on that though, it's fine and I don't think either is insane argument to make. However to your first point about the 76ers getting another star if Leonard isn't traded there is a lot weaker market than last year. The only guy I have actually heard being on the market is walker. Last year in a three month period cousins, butler and George where all clearly on the market. There certainly could be a surprise entry from Toronto or maybe someone like towns, but right now it is fantasy. A fantasy that becomes even tougher to imagine given the 76ers current front office situation.
Why do the Sixers need to acquire a star though (I said vets - and obviously meant more then the vet minimum type guys, but certainly doesn't need to be a star)?  Sure it helps, but Embiid is an all star already and Simmons nearly was.  Most people would expect both of them to be all stars next year.  Adding James, that gives them 3 all stars.  The Lakers won't have that even with James and George (no one else on that team is getting anywhere near an all star team next year). 

Also, I'd be surprised if McCollum and Beal aren't at least on the table (they might not get moved, but I think they will be shopped).  I could totally see Klay Thompson getting moved if he elects to not sign an extension or makes it known he won't take a discount (I don't think it happens, but wouldn't write it off as crazy talk either).  Toronto absolutely could decide to move on from DeRozan and/or Lowry (or Ibaka).  I'd be pretty surprised if Kemba Walker enters free agency as a Hornet.  That is right now.  Free agency will change things.  What if George leaves and stunningly Anthony opts out.  Would the Thunder entertain moving Westbrook?  Maybe.  Perhaps Denver decides the Paul Millsap experiment was a failure and want to cut their losses.  Maybe the Clippers or Grizzlies decide to sell off assets and go full bore into rebuilding.  The Wolves have way too much salary on the books, maybe they move on from someone.  then of course there is the Demarcus Cousins wild card.  What if he wants to play with Lebron in Philly?  Would the Pelicans sign and trade him to the Sixers for Covington, Saric, Bayless, Fultz? 

Lots can happen, but even if they don't make major moves a top 3 of James, Embiid, and Simmons would be incredibly difficult for most teams to defend.

I think this is a really good example of a common tactic you have in our debates where if you want something to happen or like a certain team, you look at all their possibilities through extremely optimistic lenses and if you don't, it becomes extremely pessimistic.

Why is Simmons clearly a star and potential all-star, despite having a major flaw in his game that the Celtics gave the template on shutting down in the playoffs, but Ingram is not?

Ingrahm averaged 16 points, 5 rebounds and 4 assists on 47% shooting last year and 39% from 3. Before getting injured, he had turned it on even more during the month of March averaging 18.5, 5 and 5.5 on 54% shooting from the field and 52% from 3 (the Lakers were also above .500 for the month. How can you so easily dismiss him with those numbers?
You would literally be drooling if he put them up on the 76ers as a 20 year old. Those are incredible numbers and he was being recognized around the league for an astonishing jump between year 1 and 2.
Ben Simmons was nearly named to the all star game this year.  Brandon Ingram was not.  And this shutting down you speak of, still led to 47.5% shooting (69.6% from the line) and averages of 14.4 p, 8.2 r, 6.4 a with a steal and a block per game and that includes his 1 point game.  The other 4 games in the series Simmons averaged between 16 and 19 points with 11 to 15 shots.  This was Simmons 1st year in the league.  How did Ingram do in the playoffs in either of his 1st 2 seasons? 

And let's be real, Ingram can't defend a chair.  You talk about Simmons' shooting flaw and then completely disregard how useless Ingram is one end of the floor.  And for all that great shooting(for the record Simmons TS% was a fair bit higher than Ingram's even with the 3 point shooting discrepancy), Simmons still had a much better ORTG, OBPM, OWS, etc. than Ingram.  Because shockingly there is more to offense then being able to shoot the ball well from distance.  Defensively the gap is as large as the gap between Ingram and Simmons 3 point shooting.  Ingram is very young and very talented, he will get better, but Simmons is far closer to an all star than Ingram is, and it isn't close right now.
Simmons is considerably older than Ingram.

If Ingram improves as much from year two to three as he did from one to two, he will be an all-star. He is a very good player. Stop with all the rest of the noise Moranis.
well sure if Ingram nearly doubles his production he will be an all star.  Heck he will be a MVP candidate in that case.  That seems unlikely.

And seriously you complain about me deflecting and not responding.  Wow

What didn't I respond to? You argued that the 76ers would have more stars or all-stars cause you counted Embid, Simmons and Lebron. I said I would view the Lakers the same with George, Lebron and Ingram and pointed out how great Ingram was last year and how much he improved from first to second year. Isn't that our whole discussion? What am I deflecting/not responding to? Wow
the noise as you called it. You know all of the flaws in Ingram's game
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Re: Sixers open with best eastern title odds next year
« Reply #71 on: June 05, 2018, 09:51:46 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I agree with you that Ingram isn't a good defensive player, but that isn't a requirement to be an all star (see some of the years that harden made it). I also think he will continue to improve on that end pretty rapidly. I believe Durant certainly has. I think it is fair to say both Ingram and Simmons have a shot at the all star game this year.

Re: Sixers open with best eastern title odds next year
« Reply #72 on: June 06, 2018, 01:24:35 AM »

Offline action781

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If Paul George flees OKC as expected, then Carmelo could take his $28M player option with the pre-arranged agreement that OKC will trade him to play with his buddy Lebron in Cleveland.

Carmelo + Roberson for Love + JR Smith.

Cleveland moves forward with a lineup of: George Hill, Roberson, Lebron, Carmelo, Tristan Thompson with a bench of Clarkson, Korver, Jeff Green (resigned), and Nance.  Bring in another title chasing vet big man for depth.  Not the best team, but I think its one that LeBron would appreciate enough to stay.  Overall, pretty good defense in the starting lineup.

I don't think it'll happen, but a thought.
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Re: Sixers open with best eastern title odds next year
« Reply #73 on: June 06, 2018, 03:14:17 AM »

Offline sawick48

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If Paul George flees OKC as expected, then Carmelo could take his $28M player option with the pre-arranged agreement that OKC will trade him to play with his buddy Lebron in Cleveland.

Carmelo + Roberson for Love + JR Smith.

Cleveland moves forward with a lineup of: George Hill, Roberson, Lebron, Carmelo, Tristan Thompson with a bench of Clarkson, Korver, Jeff Green (resigned), and Nance.  Bring in another title chasing vet big man for depth.  Not the best team, but I think its one that LeBron would appreciate enough to stay.  Overall, pretty good defense in the starting lineup.

I don't think it'll happen, but a thought.


LeBron will set himself on fire if all of that happens. His time of playing w friends for the sake of it is over. He's all about chasing MJ and those rings now in the last legs of his prime.

The cap situation in Cleveland, with or without making any moves currently as is, makes me actually sick.





Anyway, Philly doesn't scare me. Have beaten the drum all throughout and will continue to do so but anytime a team's main defense is "All we need is LeBron in free agency and we're instant title contenders!" it screams to me a team lacking any real plan and lacking leadership and confidence.

Re: Sixers open with best eastern title odds next year
« Reply #74 on: June 06, 2018, 03:24:43 AM »

Offline sawick48

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Just wanted to lay out what needs to happen for this 76ers fantasy to happen that a few people have thrown out here. I would also like to add it would either be the best or second best offseason in NBA history (depending on how you value young lebron and bosh joining a team versus old lebron and leonard joining a team.

1) 76ers decide whether to fire or keep Bryan C.
a) if keep do players (lebron) trust him
b) if fire, who do they get and how long does it take to get in place? Griffin is pretty unlikely as a protege to Bryan C (Griffin has repeatedly talked about how much he admires BC). Some think they target a young mind focused on analytics. We all saw how much the transition killed Cleveland last off season.

2) The spurs decide they need to trade Leonard. Note this is still unlikely as Leonard and Pops have been extremely close since he came in the league and the Spurs have kept all of their star players in the franchise (Parker, Ginobli, Duncan, Robinson etc etc) going back 30 years. I have never seen a statement from Leonard that he wants/demands to be traded

3) The spurs decide whether they want to trade leonard and
a) blow it up (parker signs elsewhere, trade gasol, trade aldridge. 
b) keep the rest of the band together and get a star for leonard (butler, pg etc).

In either case I don't see how an offer that mixes young talent with question (10th pick, high pick that has many warning signs and did not perform yet) with role players in mid to late 20's (saric, covington) is appealing.

4) Lebron decides whether he wants to stay or leave Cleveland
B) If Leave, Lebron decides whether he wants to stay east or go west

My thought on this is that Lebron is extremely competitive and wants to be the GOAT. One of the biggest criticisms against him is that he has coasted through an extremely weak eastern conference during his finals streak (partially by weakening the competition when he formed the big 3 in Miami that immediately killed Toronto and Cleveland as playoff teams). With the emergence of the Celtics as a juggernaut (5 players you could easily see being all-stars next season) the East will no longer be easier and he can kill this narrative. I think that is quite appealing for him.
C) Lebron decides to stay east and is ok joining Embiid and Simmons despite hating play with young players his entire career.

Is this possible? i guess, but it is about the equivalent of betting on a 5-7 team parlay with numerous underdogs involves. I don't see us doing these sorts of gymnastics for the wolves, pelicans, jazz etc for 6 perfect moves that could make them a juggernaut.

After a while it just gets silly... .

The LeBron to philly narrative is the single dumbest one I've seen in some time. It literally has been created out of thin air by 6er fans on Twitter and the media for whatever reason has held to it as gospel.  It's strange, really.

He isn't going there. It's staying in Cleveland, which gets less likely by the ugly playoff game losing day, or LA to spread his brand, live in his giant mansion, and become a producer and enterpriser.

What ties does he even have to Philly? He's going to play for Bret Brown who just received an extension? And where is the Philly fanaticism coming from? Bc Embiid stayed healthy for literally the first time in 6 years and all of a sudden that's a given from now on? Bc Simmons, who had 0 tape on him, played big in some relatively meaningless games and padded his stats (nice playoff numbers, kid)? 

As for the argument that LeBron doesn't mind, or even actually wants to be, playing with young guys - what in his history suggests this? That Kyrie was on the team when he came back to Cleveland is one thing, but he also was THE ONLY ONE OF THREE #1 OVERALL PICKS THAT LEBRON DECIDED COULD STICK AROUND.  His final run in Cleveland the first time? Traded all picks and youth for playoff proven vets ala Antoine Jamison.  Miami? Wade, Bosh and a roster filled out with the Mike Millers and James Jones of the world.  Back to Cleveland? More James Jones, more trading of Waiters for JR Smith, more Kyle Korver. 

34 year old Bron is not waiting around hoping that 20 year old Simmons can rebound from being mentally spent on national tv and that 23 year old Embiid can magically start staying healthy for stretches. He wants to chase MJ and his legacy.  He wants to become a global brand unto himself (even moreso than he already has).  And above all, he wants HIS team, run by HIS people, surrounded by HIS approved guys.