Sixers open with best eastern title odds next year

[Moranis]

Nothing about Lebron on the Lakers feels weird to me. It feels natural like when Shaq went there (or even Dwight for that matter). On the flip side, Lebron on the 76ers feels very weird to me and hard to imagine. A guy that has been the star of the league his whole career is all of a sudden sharing it with a couple of guys 12 years younger than him? I guess anything happen, but this doesn't even jive with the odds of what was posted for Lebron on here recently.

I would also like to see our rivalry with Philly develop naturally over the next few years without it being all about Lebron...

the Lakers are even younger than the Sixers

They would obviously use their cap space and young talent to put stars and vets next to him. It's not like he's going there to play with Ball, Ingram, or Kuz. He would go there to play with guys like Kawhi, PG, and Cousins.

And Philly can't do that?  It is a nonsensical argument to say the Lakers make sense, but Philly doesn't because Philly has young players (when the Lakers also have even younger players).  Let's remember, James went to Cleveland when Irving was younger than Embiid is now.  That team in Cleveland also had the #1 pick (Wiggins), the prior #1 pick (Bennett), and a couple of recent top 4 picks (Waiters and Thompson).  Now it is Cleveland which is his home, but there is no way James would have gone there if they didn't have all of that young talent, because that young talent could (and was) easily flipped for veteran talent.  It isn't all that far fetched for Philly to sign James in free agency and flip Saric, Covington, Fultz, and #10 for Kawhi Leonard.  They might even be able to add some other pieces and get Gasol or someone else from the Spurs.  If they work the math out correctly, the could probably trade for Leonard 1st and cut the salary they need to have max room to sign James, thus saving some assets or young pieces.

Imagine this roster for the Sixers

PG - Simmons, McConnell, Bayless
SG - Vet FA, Anderson/Luwawu-Cabbarrot/Korkmaz (at least one of them goes out for salary)
SF - Leonard, Vet FA
PF - James, Holmes
C - Embiid, Gasol

That is a clear title favorite and isn't all that unrealistic.

Except it is very unrealistic because that offer for Kawhi and Gasol is trash for San Antonio

That offer for Kawhi is good compared to the return for PG13, Cousins and even Butler who had 2 years left not 1.  Absolutely no reason for the Sixers to waste assets on Gasol and his bad contract.

Yeah, but the last time Kawhi was healthy he was, at worst, a top 5 guy in the NBA. None of those other guys are even in the top 10 league-wide.

except Leonard isn't healthy and is entering the final year of his contract.

Demarcus Cousins was back to back 2nd Team All NBA when he was traded.  Paul George was a 3 time 3rd Team All NBA (as well as a 1st Team and 2 2nd Team All Defense those seasons) and had a top 10 MVP finish.  Jimmy Butler was coming off a 3rd Team All NBA season.  Now sure, none of them had the peak of Kawhi Leonard, but none of them were hurt and they all had more than 1 season left on their contracts. 

That is a good trade for the Spurs.  It could certainly be topped by the Lakers, Celtics, or a few other teams, but it is far from a crap offer.

How can any trade involving fultz be considered good?  I’m as open as the next guy that he can eventually turn it around but I certainly wouldn’t bet on it.  SA could eventually end up with zilch.  That’s too big of a gamble to be considered “good”.

when it includes Saric, Covington, and #10 as well. 

that's still a broken rookie with many questions about his game (Fultz), decent prospect that could be a starter (Saric), a 3-and-D role player (Covington) and a late lottery pick that typically pans out to be a role player if that. 
http://www.mynbadraft.com/nba-draft-picks/10th-overall/100509/
Sure, there's some good players taken at 10 (Pierce, Paul George, Brook Lopez, Mccollum) but a lot role players and busts too --> certainly not someone that could be expected to come close to filling Kawhi's shoes unless they get lucky in the draft.

You never get full value when you trade a star, especially one that basically missed the entire season and is entering the last year of his contract, but that is a pretty solid trade value overall in these scenarios.  It is certainly a better haul then Chicago and Sacramento got.  Now maybe Oladipo breaking out makes the Pacers haul better, but that was pretty unexpected and was widely considered a poor value trade for the Pacers at the time. 

Obviously if Leonard will sign his supermax extension then the Spurs don't trade him, but if they offer him the supermax and he turns it down, the Spurs will have to trade him, and if that happens, it then becomes about getting the best possible value, which invariably includes trading Leonard to a place he might actually stay (because no team is giving up great value for a rental).  When you start looking around the league, there just aren't many places that make sense.  Obviously Philadelphia is one of those places, as are the Lakers and Celtics.  The real question is, what would Boston be willing to give up for Leonard.  If Irving is off the table, I'm not sure a trade centered around just 1 of Tatum or Brown is enough (both certainly would be).  If the Lakers only offer up only Ingram, they don't beat that offer.  Is Golden State going to want Leonard, probably not, but a Leonard for Thompson swap would make some sense.  The Clippers and Rockets just don't have the assets to acquire him (neither does Cleveland though I'm not sure they would risk acquiring him anyway given he could leave in a year - along with James).  The Knicks can't come near the Sixers offer unless they trade Porzingis, and what is the point in that.  Would Leonard stay in Minnesota long term?  If so, they could probably put together a pretty solid offer around Wiggins, but I'm not sure the Spurs would prefer Wiggins to the Sixers players.

There just aren't many teams that make sense for Leonard both short and long term and that also have the assets to reasonably acquire him.

[droopdog7]

Nothing about Lebron on the Lakers feels weird to me. It feels natural like when Shaq went there (or even Dwight for that matter). On the flip side, Lebron on the 76ers feels very weird to me and hard to imagine. A guy that has been the star of the league his whole career is all of a sudden sharing it with a couple of guys 12 years younger than him? I guess anything happen, but this doesn't even jive with the odds of what was posted for Lebron on here recently.

I would also like to see our rivalry with Philly develop naturally over the next few years without it being all about Lebron...

the Lakers are even younger than the Sixers

They would obviously use their cap space and young talent to put stars and vets next to him. It's not like he's going there to play with Ball, Ingram, or Kuz. He would go there to play with guys like Kawhi, PG, and Cousins.

And Philly can't do that?  It is a nonsensical argument to say the Lakers make sense, but Philly doesn't because Philly has young players (when the Lakers also have even younger players).  Let's remember, James went to Cleveland when Irving was younger than Embiid is now.  That team in Cleveland also had the #1 pick (Wiggins), the prior #1 pick (Bennett), and a couple of recent top 4 picks (Waiters and Thompson).  Now it is Cleveland which is his home, but there is no way James would have gone there if they didn't have all of that young talent, because that young talent could (and was) easily flipped for veteran talent.  It isn't all that far fetched for Philly to sign James in free agency and flip Saric, Covington, Fultz, and #10 for Kawhi Leonard.  They might even be able to add some other pieces and get Gasol or someone else from the Spurs.  If they work the math out correctly, the could probably trade for Leonard 1st and cut the salary they need to have max room to sign James, thus saving some assets or young pieces.

Imagine this roster for the Sixers

PG - Simmons, McConnell, Bayless
SG - Vet FA, Anderson/Luwawu-Cabbarrot/Korkmaz (at least one of them goes out for salary)
SF - Leonard, Vet FA
PF - James, Holmes
C - Embiid, Gasol

That is a clear title favorite and isn't all that unrealistic.

Except it is very unrealistic because that offer for Kawhi and Gasol is trash for San Antonio

That offer for Kawhi is good compared to the return for PG13, Cousins and even Butler who had 2 years left not 1.  Absolutely no reason for the Sixers to waste assets on Gasol and his bad contract.

Yeah, but the last time Kawhi was healthy he was, at worst, a top 5 guy in the NBA. None of those other guys are even in the top 10 league-wide.

except Leonard isn't healthy and is entering the final year of his contract.

Demarcus Cousins was back to back 2nd Team All NBA when he was traded.  Paul George was a 3 time 3rd Team All NBA (as well as a 1st Team and 2 2nd Team All Defense those seasons) and had a top 10 MVP finish.  Jimmy Butler was coming off a 3rd Team All NBA season.  Now sure, none of them had the peak of Kawhi Leonard, but none of them were hurt and they all had more than 1 season left on their contracts. 

That is a good trade for the Spurs.  It could certainly be topped by the Lakers, Celtics, or a few other teams, but it is far from a crap offer.

How can any trade involving fultz be considered good?  I’m as open as the next guy that he can eventually turn it around but I certainly wouldn’t bet on it.  SA could eventually end up with zilch.  That’s too big of a gamble to be considered “good”.

when it includes Saric, Covington, and #10 as well.

Saric, Covington, and the #10 are all average assets at best.  So the value hinges on Fultz, which is about as hit or miss as it gets.

[bdm860]

but if they offer him the supermax and he turns it down, the Spurs will have to trade him

It might not be this black and white, at the least I think it could make for an interesting debate.

Does a healthy Kawhi make the Spurs a legit contender next year?  Or at the least, a dark horse contender?

If you're only getting back pennies on the dollar, then it could make sense to roll the dice and go all in on a championship run in '19.  Kind of like how the Cavs have handled LeBron this year (if we ignore his NTC).

So as an organization, would you rather have a X% shot at a championship next year followed by a best case scenario of mediocrity in the following years, vs additional assets but no visible championship path?

If I'm the Spurs, I'd only feel forced to trade Kawhi if he says he's going to sit out if he's not traded.  Internally, they could definitely think making 1 more championship run outweighs the cost of losing him for nothing.   So I don't think the Spurs have to make a move, not when standing pat could win a championship.

[celticsclay]

Nothing about Lebron on the Lakers feels weird to me. It feels natural like when Shaq went there (or even Dwight for that matter). On the flip side, Lebron on the 76ers feels very weird to me and hard to imagine. A guy that has been the star of the league his whole career is all of a sudden sharing it with a couple of guys 12 years younger than him? I guess anything happen, but this doesn't even jive with the odds of what was posted for Lebron on here recently.

I would also like to see our rivalry with Philly develop naturally over the next few years without it being all about Lebron...

the Lakers are even younger than the Sixers

They would obviously use their cap space and young talent to put stars and vets next to him. It's not like he's going there to play with Ball, Ingram, or Kuz. He would go there to play with guys like Kawhi, PG, and Cousins.

And Philly can't do that?  It is a nonsensical argument to say the Lakers make sense, but Philly doesn't because Philly has young players (when the Lakers also have even younger players).  Let's remember, James went to Cleveland when Irving was younger than Embiid is now.  That team in Cleveland also had the #1 pick (Wiggins), the prior #1 pick (Bennett), and a couple of recent top 4 picks (Waiters and Thompson).  Now it is Cleveland which is his home, but there is no way James would have gone there if they didn't have all of that young talent, because that young talent could (and was) easily flipped for veteran talent.  It isn't all that far fetched for Philly to sign James in free agency and flip Saric, Covington, Fultz, and #10 for Kawhi Leonard.  They might even be able to add some other pieces and get Gasol or someone else from the Spurs.  If they work the math out correctly, the could probably trade for Leonard 1st and cut the salary they need to have max room to sign James, thus saving some assets or young pieces.

Imagine this roster for the Sixers

PG - Simmons, McConnell, Bayless
SG - Vet FA, Anderson/Luwawu-Cabbarrot/Korkmaz (at least one of them goes out for salary)
SF - Leonard, Vet FA
PF - James, Holmes
C - Embiid, Gasol

That is a clear title favorite and isn't all that unrealistic.

Except it is very unrealistic because that offer for Kawhi and Gasol is trash for San Antonio

That offer for Kawhi is good compared to the return for PG13, Cousins and even Butler who had 2 years left not 1.  Absolutely no reason for the Sixers to waste assets on Gasol and his bad contract.

Yeah, but the last time Kawhi was healthy he was, at worst, a top 5 guy in the NBA. None of those other guys are even in the top 10 league-wide.

except Leonard isn't healthy and is entering the final year of his contract.

Demarcus Cousins was back to back 2nd Team All NBA when he was traded.  Paul George was a 3 time 3rd Team All NBA (as well as a 1st Team and 2 2nd Team All Defense those seasons) and had a top 10 MVP finish.  Jimmy Butler was coming off a 3rd Team All NBA season.  Now sure, none of them had the peak of Kawhi Leonard, but none of them were hurt and they all had more than 1 season left on their contracts. 

That is a good trade for the Spurs.  It could certainly be topped by the Lakers, Celtics, or a few other teams, but it is far from a crap offer.

How can any trade involving fultz be considered good?  I’m as open as the next guy that he can eventually turn it around but I certainly wouldn’t bet on it.  SA could eventually end up with zilch.  That’s too big of a gamble to be considered “good”.

when it includes Saric, Covington, and #10 as well. 

that's still a broken rookie with many questions about his game (Fultz), decent prospect that could be a starter (Saric), a 3-and-D role player (Covington) and a late lottery pick that typically pans out to be a role player if that. 
http://www.mynbadraft.com/nba-draft-picks/10th-overall/100509/
Sure, there's some good players taken at 10 (Pierce, Paul George, Brook Lopez, Mccollum) but a lot role players and busts too --> certainly not someone that could be expected to come close to filling Kawhi's shoes unless they get lucky in the draft.

You never get full value when you trade a star, especially one that basically missed the entire season and is entering the last year of his contract, but that is a pretty solid trade value overall in these scenarios.  It is certainly a better haul then Chicago and Sacramento got.  Now maybe Oladipo breaking out makes the Pacers haul better, but that was pretty unexpected and was widely considered a poor value trade for the Pacers at the time. 

Obviously if Leonard will sign his supermax extension then the Spurs don't trade him, but if they offer him the supermax and he turns it down, the Spurs will have to trade him, and if that happens, it then becomes about getting the best possible value, which invariably includes trading Leonard to a place he might actually stay (because no team is giving up great value for a rental).  When you start looking around the league, there just aren't many places that make sense.  Obviously Philadelphia is one of those places, as are the Lakers and Celtics.  The real question is, what would Boston be willing to give up for Leonard.  If Irving is off the table, I'm not sure a trade centered around just 1 of Tatum or Brown is enough (both certainly would be).  If the Lakers only offer up only Ingram, they don't beat that offer.  Is Golden State going to want Leonard, probably not, but a Leonard for Thompson swap would make some sense.  The Clippers and Rockets just don't have the assets to acquire him (neither does Cleveland though I'm not sure they would risk acquiring him anyway given he could leave in a year - along with James).  The Knicks can't come near the Sixers offer unless they trade Porzingis, and what is the point in that.  Would Leonard stay in Minnesota long term?  If so, they could probably put together a pretty solid offer around Wiggins, but I'm not sure the Spurs would prefer Wiggins to the Sixers players.

There just aren't many teams that make sense for Leonard both short and long term and that also have the assets to reasonably acquire him.

This is an interesting take. I think most people around the NBA view Tatum, Ingram and Brown as clear star blue chip prospects in the NBA that have all performed for long stretches in the NBA (by prospect standards). Ingram averaged 16 points on 47% shooting and shot 39% from 3. Obviously we know what Brown and Tatum did throughout the playoffs almost carrying a team to the finals. To think they are even in the same ballpark as a guy that has had some sort of mental issues over shooting, has had others question his maturity (I can bring a lot more in on this part if you are interested) and hasn't demonstrated any consistent NBA performance, is pretty funny to me.

Despite Covington making the all-defensive first team somehow, he certainly didn't look like a championship quality starting player for Philly against us and think he is best as a bench player. If the Spurs trade their one superstar why would they want to pay Covington 50 million dollars over the next 4 seasons to not compete? He also turns 28 next season.

This just seems like another in a long series of people doing mental gymnastics to think of ways things could work out for Philly and downplaying that the Celtics have a war chest of players they could trade that are above anything Philly would offer in a trade (if simmons or embid are off the table).

[celticsclay]

Nothing about Lebron on the Lakers feels weird to me. It feels natural like when Shaq went there (or even Dwight for that matter). On the flip side, Lebron on the 76ers feels very weird to me and hard to imagine. A guy that has been the star of the league his whole career is all of a sudden sharing it with a couple of guys 12 years younger than him? I guess anything happen, but this doesn't even jive with the odds of what was posted for Lebron on here recently.

I would also like to see our rivalry with Philly develop naturally over the next few years without it being all about Lebron...

the Lakers are even younger than the Sixers

I think it goes without saying that Lebron would be joined by George in LA if he goes there, who is in his absolute prime. They are pretty much the same with the that as both teams would have some young players and a starter or two and bench made of vets. Weird attempt at a counter point to be honest.

[celticsclay]

Nothing about Lebron on the Lakers feels weird to me. It feels natural like when Shaq went there (or even Dwight for that matter). On the flip side, Lebron on the 76ers feels very weird to me and hard to imagine. A guy that has been the star of the league his whole career is all of a sudden sharing it with a couple of guys 12 years younger than him? I guess anything happen, but this doesn't even jive with the odds of what was posted for Lebron on here recently.

I would also like to see our rivalry with Philly develop naturally over the next few years without it being all about Lebron...

the Lakers are even younger than the Sixers

They would obviously use their cap space and young talent to put stars and vets next to him. It's not like he's going there to play with Ball, Ingram, or Kuz. He would go there to play with guys like Kawhi, PG, and Cousins.

Thank you, I thought this point was so obvious we didn't have to make it.

[Moranis]

Nothing about Lebron on the Lakers feels weird to me. It feels natural like when Shaq went there (or even Dwight for that matter). On the flip side, Lebron on the 76ers feels very weird to me and hard to imagine. A guy that has been the star of the league his whole career is all of a sudden sharing it with a couple of guys 12 years younger than him? I guess anything happen, but this doesn't even jive with the odds of what was posted for Lebron on here recently.

I would also like to see our rivalry with Philly develop naturally over the next few years without it being all about Lebron...

the Lakers are even younger than the Sixers

They would obviously use their cap space and young talent to put stars and vets next to him. It's not like he's going there to play with Ball, Ingram, or Kuz. He would go there to play with guys like Kawhi, PG, and Cousins.

Thank you, I thought this point was so obvious we didn't have to make it.

yeah and as I've pointed out, Philly can do that as well.  And you know unlike the Lakers, the Sixers were a 50 win 2nd round playoff team. 

[celticsclay]

Nothing about Lebron on the Lakers feels weird to me. It feels natural like when Shaq went there (or even Dwight for that matter). On the flip side, Lebron on the 76ers feels very weird to me and hard to imagine. A guy that has been the star of the league his whole career is all of a sudden sharing it with a couple of guys 12 years younger than him? I guess anything happen, but this doesn't even jive with the odds of what was posted for Lebron on here recently.

I would also like to see our rivalry with Philly develop naturally over the next few years without it being all about Lebron...

the Lakers are even younger than the Sixers

They would obviously use their cap space and young talent to put stars and vets next to him. It's not like he's going there to play with Ball, Ingram, or Kuz. He would go there to play with guys like Kawhi, PG, and Cousins.

Thank you, I thought this point was so obvious we didn't have to make it.

yeah and as I've pointed out, Philly can do that as well.  And you know unlike the Lakers, the Sixers were a 50 win 2nd round playoff team.

Without agreeing to some insane Leonard fantasy trade, the 76ers actually can not do this. They don't have the salary space for two max free agents like the Lakers do. This is is pretty big and pretty basic.

Most people agree that Fultz is not going to be moved with his value at an all-time low and Covington and the number 10 pick are extremely meh assets. Most teams don't want to commit 50 million to a role player over the next 4 years. For team that would be rebuilding after trading Leonard, this makes even less sense for the spurs.

I really don't get your fantasies with the 76ers. I can at least understand why you come up with the stuff for Cleveland.

[RodyTur10]

Nothing about Lebron on the Lakers feels weird to me. It feels natural like when Shaq went there (or even Dwight for that matter). On the flip side, Lebron on the 76ers feels very weird to me and hard to imagine. A guy that has been the star of the league his whole career is all of a sudden sharing it with a couple of guys 12 years younger than him? I guess anything happen, but this doesn't even jive with the odds of what was posted for Lebron on here recently.

I would also like to see our rivalry with Philly develop naturally over the next few years without it being all about Lebron...

the Lakers are even younger than the Sixers

They would obviously use their cap space and young talent to put stars and vets next to him. It's not like he's going there to play with Ball, Ingram, or Kuz. He would go there to play with guys like Kawhi, PG, and Cousins.

And Philly can't do that?  It is a nonsensical argument to say the Lakers make sense, but Philly doesn't because Philly has young players (when the Lakers also have even younger players).  Let's remember, James went to Cleveland when Irving was younger than Embiid is now.  That team in Cleveland also had the #1 pick (Wiggins), the prior #1 pick (Bennett), and a couple of recent top 4 picks (Waiters and Thompson).  Now it is Cleveland which is his home, but there is no way James would have gone there if they didn't have all of that young talent, because that young talent could (and was) easily flipped for veteran talent.  It isn't all that far fetched for Philly to sign James in free agency and flip Saric, Covington, Fultz, and #10 for Kawhi Leonard.  They might even be able to add some other pieces and get Gasol or someone else from the Spurs.  If they work the math out correctly, the could probably trade for Leonard 1st and cut the salary they need to have max room to sign James, thus saving some assets or young pieces.

Imagine this roster for the Sixers

PG - Simmons, McConnell, Bayless
SG - Vet FA, Anderson/Luwawu-Cabbarrot/Korkmaz (at least one of them goes out for salary)
SF - Leonard, Vet FA
PF - James, Holmes
C - Embiid, Gasol

That is a clear title favorite and isn't all that unrealistic.

Except it is very unrealistic because that offer for Kawhi and Gasol is trash for San Antonio

That offer for Kawhi is good compared to the return for PG13, Cousins and even Butler who had 2 years left not 1.  Absolutely no reason for the Sixers to waste assets on Gasol and his bad contract.

Yeah, but the last time Kawhi was healthy he was, at worst, a top 5 guy in the NBA. None of those other guys are even in the top 10 league-wide.

except Leonard isn't healthy and is entering the final year of his contract.

Demarcus Cousins was back to back 2nd Team All NBA when he was traded.  Paul George was a 3 time 3rd Team All NBA (as well as a 1st Team and 2 2nd Team All Defense those seasons) and had a top 10 MVP finish.  Jimmy Butler was coming off a 3rd Team All NBA season.  Now sure, none of them had the peak of Kawhi Leonard, but none of them were hurt and they all had more than 1 season left on their contracts. 

That is a good trade for the Spurs.  It could certainly be topped by the Lakers, Celtics, or a few other teams, but it is far from a crap offer.

How can any trade involving fultz be considered good?  I’m as open as the next guy that he can eventually turn it around but I certainly wouldn’t bet on it.  SA could eventually end up with zilch.  That’s too big of a gamble to be considered “good”.

when it includes Saric, Covington, and #10 as well. 

that's still a broken rookie with many questions about his game (Fultz), decent prospect that could be a starter (Saric), a 3-and-D role player (Covington) and a late lottery pick that typically pans out to be a role player if that. 
http://www.mynbadraft.com/nba-draft-picks/10th-overall/100509/
Sure, there's some good players taken at 10 (Pierce, Paul George, Brook Lopez, Mccollum) but a lot role players and busts too --> certainly not someone that could be expected to come close to filling Kawhi's shoes unless they get lucky in the draft.

You never get full value when you trade a star, especially one that basically missed the entire season and is entering the last year of his contract, but that is a pretty solid trade value overall in these scenarios.  It is certainly a better haul then Chicago and Sacramento got.  Now maybe Oladipo breaking out makes the Pacers haul better, but that was pretty unexpected and was widely considered a poor value trade for the Pacers at the time. 

Obviously if Leonard will sign his supermax extension then the Spurs don't trade him, but if they offer him the supermax and he turns it down, the Spurs will have to trade him, and if that happens, it then becomes about getting the best possible value, which invariably includes trading Leonard to a place he might actually stay (because no team is giving up great value for a rental).  When you start looking around the league, there just aren't many places that make sense.  Obviously Philadelphia is one of those places, as are the Lakers and Celtics.  The real question is, what would Boston be willing to give up for Leonard.  If Irving is off the table, I'm not sure a trade centered around just 1 of Tatum or Brown is enough (both certainly would be).  If the Lakers only offer up only Ingram, they don't beat that offer.  Is Golden State going to want Leonard, probably not, but a Leonard for Thompson swap would make some sense.  The Clippers and Rockets just don't have the assets to acquire him (neither does Cleveland though I'm not sure they would risk acquiring him anyway given he could leave in a year - along with James).  The Knicks can't come near the Sixers offer unless they trade Porzingis, and what is the point in that.  Would Leonard stay in Minnesota long term?  If so, they could probably put together a pretty solid offer around Wiggins, but I'm not sure the Spurs would prefer Wiggins to the Sixers players.

There just aren't many teams that make sense for Leonard both short and long term and that also have the assets to reasonably acquire him.

This is an interesting take. I think most people around the NBA view Tatum, Ingram and Brown as clear star blue chip prospects in the NBA that have all performed for long stretches in the NBA (by prospect standards). Ingram averaged 16 points on 47% shooting and shot 39% from 3. Obviously we know what Brown and Tatum did throughout the playoffs almost carrying a team to the finals. To think they are even in the same ballpark as a guy that has had some sort of mental issues over shooting, has had others question his maturity (I can bring a lot more in on this part if you are interested) and hasn't demonstrated any consistent NBA performance, is pretty funny to me.

Despite Covington making the all-defensive first team somehow, he certainly didn't look like a championship quality starting player for Philly against us and think he is best as a bench player. If the Spurs trade their one superstar why would they want to pay Covington 50 million dollars over the next 4 seasons to not compete? He also turns 28 next season.

This just seems like another in a long series of people doing mental gymnastics to think of ways things could work out for Philly and downplaying that the Celtics have a war chest of players they could trade that are above anything Philly would offer in a trade (if simmons or embid are off the table).

I don't think Ainge will want to trade for Leonard. Of course noone saw the Irving trade coming, but with all the wings we already have and the salary issues we'll have to face it doesn't make a lot of sense for the Celtics to go after him.

For different reasons many teams won't be in the position to either be willing or able to give up significant assets.

Philadelphia, LA Lakers, Minnesota, Denver (I would like to see that), Milwaukee, Portland, Toronto, Washington and Utah seem like teams that would be very interested to make offers for Leonard. That list doesn't include teams with top lottery picks.

That 10th pick the 76ers will offer and that combined with Fultz and Saric/Covington is pretty good considering what the competition is. How great are Ball, Ingram or Kuzma really as separate prospects for instance?

[droopdog7]

Nothing about Lebron on the Lakers feels weird to me. It feels natural like when Shaq went there (or even Dwight for that matter). On the flip side, Lebron on the 76ers feels very weird to me and hard to imagine. A guy that has been the star of the league his whole career is all of a sudden sharing it with a couple of guys 12 years younger than him? I guess anything happen, but this doesn't even jive with the odds of what was posted for Lebron on here recently.

I would also like to see our rivalry with Philly develop naturally over the next few years without it being all about Lebron...

the Lakers are even younger than the Sixers

They would obviously use their cap space and young talent to put stars and vets next to him. It's not like he's going there to play with Ball, Ingram, or Kuz. He would go there to play with guys like Kawhi, PG, and Cousins.

Thank you, I thought this point was so obvious we didn't have to make it.

yeah and as I've pointed out, Philly can do that as well.  And you know unlike the Lakers, the Sixers were a 50 win 2nd round playoff team.

Without agreeing to some insane Leonard fantasy trade, the 76ers actually can not do this. They don't have the salary space for two max free agents like the Lakers do. This is is pretty big and pretty basic.

Most people agree that Fultz is not going to be moved with his value at an all-time low and Covington and the number 10 pick are extremely meh assets. Most teams don't want to commit 50 million to a role player over the next 4 years. For team that would be rebuilding after trading Leonard, this makes even less sense for the spurs.

I really don't get your fantasies with the 76ers. I can at least understand why you come up with the stuff for Cleveland.

Why can't they?  What about Simmons and parts for Kawhi?  Would SA say no to that?  You end up with Kawhi, Lebron, and Embiid and, Kawhi and Embiid can carry forward once lebron gets older.

Also eliminates issue of having Lebron and Simmons together, which I think would be an awful combination.

[celticsclay]

Nothing about Lebron on the Lakers feels weird to me. It feels natural like when Shaq went there (or even Dwight for that matter). On the flip side, Lebron on the 76ers feels very weird to me and hard to imagine. A guy that has been the star of the league his whole career is all of a sudden sharing it with a couple of guys 12 years younger than him? I guess anything happen, but this doesn't even jive with the odds of what was posted for Lebron on here recently.

I would also like to see our rivalry with Philly develop naturally over the next few years without it being all about Lebron...

the Lakers are even younger than the Sixers

They would obviously use their cap space and young talent to put stars and vets next to him. It's not like he's going there to play with Ball, Ingram, or Kuz. He would go there to play with guys like Kawhi, PG, and Cousins.

And Philly can't do that?  It is a nonsensical argument to say the Lakers make sense, but Philly doesn't because Philly has young players (when the Lakers also have even younger players).  Let's remember, James went to Cleveland when Irving was younger than Embiid is now.  That team in Cleveland also had the #1 pick (Wiggins), the prior #1 pick (Bennett), and a couple of recent top 4 picks (Waiters and Thompson).  Now it is Cleveland which is his home, but there is no way James would have gone there if they didn't have all of that young talent, because that young talent could (and was) easily flipped for veteran talent.  It isn't all that far fetched for Philly to sign James in free agency and flip Saric, Covington, Fultz, and #10 for Kawhi Leonard.  They might even be able to add some other pieces and get Gasol or someone else from the Spurs.  If they work the math out correctly, the could probably trade for Leonard 1st and cut the salary they need to have max room to sign James, thus saving some assets or young pieces.

Imagine this roster for the Sixers

PG - Simmons, McConnell, Bayless
SG - Vet FA, Anderson/Luwawu-Cabbarrot/Korkmaz (at least one of them goes out for salary)
SF - Leonard, Vet FA
PF - James, Holmes
C - Embiid, Gasol

That is a clear title favorite and isn't all that unrealistic.

Except it is very unrealistic because that offer for Kawhi and Gasol is trash for San Antonio

That offer for Kawhi is good compared to the return for PG13, Cousins and even Butler who had 2 years left not 1.  Absolutely no reason for the Sixers to waste assets on Gasol and his bad contract.

Yeah, but the last time Kawhi was healthy he was, at worst, a top 5 guy in the NBA. None of those other guys are even in the top 10 league-wide.

except Leonard isn't healthy and is entering the final year of his contract.

Demarcus Cousins was back to back 2nd Team All NBA when he was traded.  Paul George was a 3 time 3rd Team All NBA (as well as a 1st Team and 2 2nd Team All Defense those seasons) and had a top 10 MVP finish.  Jimmy Butler was coming off a 3rd Team All NBA season.  Now sure, none of them had the peak of Kawhi Leonard, but none of them were hurt and they all had more than 1 season left on their contracts. 

That is a good trade for the Spurs.  It could certainly be topped by the Lakers, Celtics, or a few other teams, but it is far from a crap offer.

How can any trade involving fultz be considered good?  I’m as open as the next guy that he can eventually turn it around but I certainly wouldn’t bet on it.  SA could eventually end up with zilch.  That’s too big of a gamble to be considered “good”.

when it includes Saric, Covington, and #10 as well. 

that's still a broken rookie with many questions about his game (Fultz), decent prospect that could be a starter (Saric), a 3-and-D role player (Covington) and a late lottery pick that typically pans out to be a role player if that. 
http://www.mynbadraft.com/nba-draft-picks/10th-overall/100509/
Sure, there's some good players taken at 10 (Pierce, Paul George, Brook Lopez, Mccollum) but a lot role players and busts too --> certainly not someone that could be expected to come close to filling Kawhi's shoes unless they get lucky in the draft.

You never get full value when you trade a star, especially one that basically missed the entire season and is entering the last year of his contract, but that is a pretty solid trade value overall in these scenarios.  It is certainly a better haul then Chicago and Sacramento got.  Now maybe Oladipo breaking out makes the Pacers haul better, but that was pretty unexpected and was widely considered a poor value trade for the Pacers at the time. 

Obviously if Leonard will sign his supermax extension then the Spurs don't trade him, but if they offer him the supermax and he turns it down, the Spurs will have to trade him, and if that happens, it then becomes about getting the best possible value, which invariably includes trading Leonard to a place he might actually stay (because no team is giving up great value for a rental).  When you start looking around the league, there just aren't many places that make sense.  Obviously Philadelphia is one of those places, as are the Lakers and Celtics.  The real question is, what would Boston be willing to give up for Leonard.  If Irving is off the table, I'm not sure a trade centered around just 1 of Tatum or Brown is enough (both certainly would be).  If the Lakers only offer up only Ingram, they don't beat that offer.  Is Golden State going to want Leonard, probably not, but a Leonard for Thompson swap would make some sense.  The Clippers and Rockets just don't have the assets to acquire him (neither does Cleveland though I'm not sure they would risk acquiring him anyway given he could leave in a year - along with James).  The Knicks can't come near the Sixers offer unless they trade Porzingis, and what is the point in that.  Would Leonard stay in Minnesota long term?  If so, they could probably put together a pretty solid offer around Wiggins, but I'm not sure the Spurs would prefer Wiggins to the Sixers players.

There just aren't many teams that make sense for Leonard both short and long term and that also have the assets to reasonably acquire him.

This is an interesting take. I think most people around the NBA view Tatum, Ingram and Brown as clear star blue chip prospects in the NBA that have all performed for long stretches in the NBA (by prospect standards). Ingram averaged 16 points on 47% shooting and shot 39% from 3. Obviously we know what Brown and Tatum did throughout the playoffs almost carrying a team to the finals. To think they are even in the same ballpark as a guy that has had some sort of mental issues over shooting, has had others question his maturity (I can bring a lot more in on this part if you are interested) and hasn't demonstrated any consistent NBA performance, is pretty funny to me.

Despite Covington making the all-defensive first team somehow, he certainly didn't look like a championship quality starting player for Philly against us and think he is best as a bench player. If the Spurs trade their one superstar why would they want to pay Covington 50 million dollars over the next 4 seasons to not compete? He also turns 28 next season.

This just seems like another in a long series of people doing mental gymnastics to think of ways things could work out for Philly and downplaying that the Celtics have a war chest of players they could trade that are above anything Philly would offer in a trade (if simmons or embid are off the table).

I don't think Ainge will want to trade for Leonard. Of course noone saw the Irving trade coming, but with all the wings we already have and the salary issues we'll have to face it doesn't make a lot of sense for the Celtics to go after him.

For different reasons many teams won't be in the position to either be willing or able to give up significant assets.

Philadelphia, LA Lakers, Minnesota, Denver (I would like to see that), Milwaukee, Portland, Toronto, Washington and Utah seem like teams that would be very interested to make offers for Leonard. That list doesn't include teams with top lottery picks.

That 10th pick the 76ers will offer and that combined with Fultz and Saric/Covington is pretty good considering what the competition is. How great are Ball, Ingram or Kuzma really as separate prospects for instance?

Ingram is absolutely considered a superstar prospect right now. I am not sure why a few people on the board seem to be down on him.

[celticsclay]

Just wanted to lay out what needs to happen for this 76ers fantasy to happen that a few people have thrown out here. I would also like to add it would either be the best or second best offseason in NBA history (depending on how you value young lebron and bosh joining a team versus old lebron and leonard joining a team.

1) 76ers decide whether to fire or keep Bryan C.
a) if keep do players (lebron) trust him
b) if fire, who do they get and how long does it take to get in place? Griffin is pretty unlikely as a protege to Bryan C (Griffin has repeatedly talked about how much he admires BC). Some think they target a young mind focused on analytics. We all saw how much the transition killed Cleveland last off season.

2) The spurs decide they need to trade Leonard. Note this is still unlikely as Leonard and Pops have been extremely close since he came in the league and the Spurs have kept all of their star players in the franchise (Parker, Ginobli, Duncan, Robinson etc etc) going back 30 years. I have never seen a statement from Leonard that he wants/demands to be traded

3) The spurs decide whether they want to trade leonard and
a) blow it up (parker signs elsewhere, trade gasol, trade aldridge. 
b) keep the rest of the band together and get a star for leonard (butler, pg etc).

In either case I don't see how an offer that mixes young talent with question (10th pick, high pick that has many warning signs and did not perform yet) with role players in mid to late 20's (saric, covington) is appealing.

4) Lebron decides whether he wants to stay or leave Cleveland
B) If Leave, Lebron decides whether he wants to stay east or go west

My thought on this is that Lebron is extremely competitive and wants to be the GOAT. One of the biggest criticisms against him is that he has coasted through an extremely weak eastern conference during his finals streak (partially by weakening the competition when he formed the big 3 in Miami that immediately killed Toronto and Cleveland as playoff teams). With the emergence of the Celtics as a juggernaut (5 players you could easily see being all-stars next season) the East will no longer be easier and he can kill this narrative. I think that is quite appealing for him.
C) Lebron decides to stay east and is ok joining Embiid and Simmons despite hating play with young players his entire career.

Is this possible? i guess, but it is about the equivalent of betting on a 5-7 team parlay with numerous underdogs involves. I don't see us doing these sorts of gymnastics for the wolves, pelicans, jazz etc for 6 perfect moves that could make them a juggernaut.

After a while it just gets silly... .

[Moranis]

Lebron hates playing with young people so much that, he went back to Cleveland to play with a 22 year old Kyrie Irving who had just finished his 3rd season in the league.  Other starters or key members on that team, 3rd year 23 year old Dion Waiters; 4th year, 23 year old Tristan Thompson; and 2nd year 24 year old Dellavedova.  So in sum, Lebron James' 1st season back in Cleveland the opening day rotation included himself, Varejao, Love, 4 players on their rookie contracts, and the 8th and 9th men were Marion and Miller.  Man he hates playing with young players (and let's not pretend it was a given that Kevin Love would even be on that team, there was a real possibility that trade doesn't happen and Wiggins and Bennett are also on that opening day roster).   

[celticsclay]

Lebron hates playing with young people so much that, he went back to Cleveland to play with a 22 year old Kyrie Irving who had just finished his 3rd season in the league.  Other starters or key members on that team, 3rd year 23 year old Dion Waiters; 4th year, 23 year old Tristan Thompson; and 2nd year 24 year old Dellavedova.  So in sum, Lebron James' 1st season back in Cleveland the opening day rotation included himself, Varejao, Love, 4 players on their rookie contracts, and the 8th and 9th men were Marion and Miller.  Man he hates playing with young players (and let's not pretend it was a given that Kevin Love would even be on that team, there was a real possibility that trade doesn't happen and Wiggins and Bennett are also on that opening day roster).   

So I make like 8 key points everything that needs to happen for Lebron to go to Philly. You decide to:
1) Latch onto one tangential point of it
2) Do so inaccurately

It was widely reported and that Lebron had trading Wiggins and Bennet for Love as an unspoken condition of his ending up there. As someone that worships Lebron I know you are aware of this. It has also been widely speculated that Lebron pushed for the trade of Waiters for Smith and Shumpert. I know you remember this:

https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2014/12/26/7452347/dion-waiters-wide-open-lebron-james-pass-ball


Can you not derail the conversation with a weird inaccurate statement that is not even related to the meat of the discussion?

If you are not understanding what the meat is, it is:
The 76ers may not have a GM two weeks from now
They may have one that many players don't trust
How do they orchestrate the best offseason in nba history with a guy embattled or his first week on the job?
Leonard has not demanded a trade nor have the spurs said he will be traded
If leonard is traded we don't know whether it is for retooling or reloading?
Why would they would a mix of guys in their mid to late 20's and unproven prospects in either scenario?

Lets have you address some of that rather than a bunch of Lebron nonsense I know you don't even believe in your heart.

[BringToughnessBack]

If I am Lebron, I would much rather face the Celtics to get into the finals then the Warriors(if he goes to Houston) or Warriors/Rockets(if he goes to Lakers with Leonard or George joining him). The last thing I want is for the Sixers youth to learn from Lebron on what it takes to commit to winning day in and day out. I guess on the flip side, he would need to beat the Warriors anyway, so if he can get on a team stacked like the Rockets, maybe that is his best choice- hard to say, but the grind of playing out west and even the playoffs will be harder but then again, he will be able to share some of the grief with other superstars in Harden and Paul so his wear and tear would be better....hmm...I have no clue! then again, a team with Embiid,Simmons, Leonard and Lebron would be a mighty matchup for the Warriors as well. Much better then what he has now.

I hope he chooses the harder road and goes west but from what I have seen in the past, he is not going to do that. My gut says he goes to Philly and they do a trade to get him another proven star to join with Embiid and Simmons....Maybe like 10th pick, future first, Fultz, Saric and filler for Leonard? With that team, they would be the favorite to come out of the east even with us getting Kyrie and Hayward back at one hundred percent. We might upset them but it would be a tough battle and we would need Tatum and Brown to have a big step forward with growth to have a legit chance at winning 4 vs. that lineup.  Now, if we subtract Smart and Morris from our lineup, it will be close to impossible to defend that team.